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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
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My apologies to the world wide group but Fred’s post below is just too good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
I am going to Google “Speed with Economy”. If it is available from Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on Moreno’s Aviator’s Challenge?
John Cox
#40600
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml(at)lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Fred Moreno
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions, but we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is hard to get, or because some people don’t know how to calibrate and test carefully, or some don’t want to know. As a result we have a lot of anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one LIV-P owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305 knots at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed indicator was not calibrated, and the owner’s calculation was based on an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the exact power setting, just a guess.
Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why rumors are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just won’t go away.
I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated far better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data recording (OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data without a long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics International MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good standards with reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and regurgitate vast amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found that some of their customers have used the extra channels to monitor things like engine cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot is that epoxy REALLY getting?), and other nuggets of information useful to the rest of us.
This rant is motivated by last night’s rereading Kent Paser’s excellent book, Speed with Economy (1994, possibly available through EAA). It documents Kent’s 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP Mustang II. Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to calibrate his instruments and conduct careful experiments making changes one at a time to isolate what worked and what didn’t. Net result: an increase of 64 MPH in top speed and 59 MPH in cruise speed. Slowed to his old economy cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to detail and such.
If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another can study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation interests even better than we are now doing.
Moreno’s challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) “test reports” documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and how you checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise that if I ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will keep testing and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it should not be an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help advance our “state-of-the-art.”
I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying to capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of physics), Money, and Bullshit.
It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real data.
Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
--
20/10/2006
[quote][b]
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semb
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
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One step towards us having data we can make sense of would be for
someone to put together a short FAQ on how to gather and report
performance data - ideally together with a form that can be filled out
with data. Using the form when reporting would make it obvious what
units were used, and which pieces of data were missing, etc. This would
be a great step towards making results comparable, or at least knowing
that they are not.
Simon
John W. Cox wrote:
| Quote: |
My apologies to the world wide group but Fred’s post below is just too
good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here
agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just
a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
I am going to Google “Speed with Economy”. If it is available from
Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on
Moreno’s Aviator’s Challenge?
John Cox
#40600
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml(at)lancaironline.net] *On Behalf
Of *Fred Moreno
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
*To:* Lancair Mailing List
*Subject:* [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions,
but we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is
hard to get, or because some people don’t know how to calibrate and
test carefully, or some don’t want to know. As a result we have a lot
of anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one
LIV-P owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305
knots at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed
indicator was not calibrated, and the owner’s calculation was based on
an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and
compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots
pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the
exact power setting, just a guess.
Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why
rumors are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just won’t go
away.
I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange
reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the
swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while
screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the
relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated
far better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data
recording (OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data
without a long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics
International MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good
standards with reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and
regurgitate vast amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found
that some of their customers have used the extra channels to monitor
things like engine cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot
is that epoxy REALLY getting?), and other nuggets of information
useful to the rest of us.
This rant is motivated by last night’s rereading Kent Paser’s
excellent book, _Speed with Economy_ (1994, possibly available through
EAA). It documents Kent’s 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP
Mustang II. Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to
calibrate his instruments and conduct careful experiments making
changes one at a time to isolate what worked and what didn’t. Net
result: an increase of *64 MPH* in top speed and *59 MPH* in cruise
speed. Slowed to his old economy cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent
explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and
other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air
leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to
detail and such.
If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another
can study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation
interests even better than we are now doing.
Moreno’s challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) “test
reports” documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and
how you checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise
that if I ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will
keep testing and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it
should not be an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help
advance our “state-of-the-art.”
I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying
to capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks
thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We
concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of
physics), Money, and Bullshit.
It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and
knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real *data*.
Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
--
20/10/2006
*
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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semb
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 7
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
|
|
One step towards us having data we can make sense of would be for
someone to put together a short FAQ on how to gather and report
performance data - ideally together with a form that can be filled out
with data. Using the form when reporting would make it obvious what
units were used, and which pieces of data were missing, etc. This would
be a great step towards making results comparable, or at least making it
clear where they are not.
Simon
40420
John W. Cox wrote:
| Quote: |
My apologies to the world wide group but Fred’s post below is just too
good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here
agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just
a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
I am going to Google “Speed with Economy”. If it is available from
Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on
Moreno’s Aviator’s Challenge?
John Cox
#40600
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml(at)lancaironline.net] *On Behalf
Of *Fred Moreno
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
*To:* Lancair Mailing List
*Subject:* [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions,
but we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is
hard to get, or because some people don’t know how to calibrate and
test carefully, or some don’t want to know. As a result we have a lot
of anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one
LIV-P owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305
knots at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed
indicator was not calibrated, and the owner’s calculation was based on
an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and
compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots
pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the
exact power setting, just a guess.
Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why
rumors are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just won’t go
away.
I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange
reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the
swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while
screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the
relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated
far better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data
recording (OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data
without a long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics
International MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good
standards with reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and
regurgitate vast amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found
that some of their customers have used the extra channels to monitor
things like engine cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot
is that epoxy REALLY getting?), and other nuggets of information
useful to the rest of us.
This rant is motivated by last night’s rereading Kent Paser’s
excellent book, _Speed with Economy_ (1994, possibly available through
EAA). It documents Kent’s 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP
Mustang II. Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to
calibrate his instruments and conduct careful experiments making
changes one at a time to isolate what worked and what didn’t. Net
result: an increase of *64 MPH* in top speed and *59 MPH* in cruise
speed. Slowed to his old economy cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent
explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and
other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air
leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to
detail and such.
If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another
can study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation
interests even better than we are now doing.
Moreno’s challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) “test
reports” documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and
how you checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise
that if I ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will
keep testing and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it
should not be an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help
advance our “state-of-the-art.”
I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying
to capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks
thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We
concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of
physics), Money, and Bullshit.
It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and
knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real *data*.
Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
--
20/10/2006
*
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
|
|
Here is where I just purchased it, he is going to wonder what caused the huge increase in sales, ain't the internet a wonderful thing.....now if we can just all read it and understand it! http://speedwitheconomy.com/
Dan 40269 (N289DT)
RV10E
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
My apologies to the world wide group but Fred’s post below is just too good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
I am going to Google “Speed with Economy”. If it is available from Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on Moreno’s Aviator’s Challenge?
John Cox
#40600
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml(at)lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Fred Moreno
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions, but we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is hard to get, or because some people don’t know how to calibrate and test carefully, or some don’t want to know. As a result we have a lot of anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one LIV-P owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305 knots at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed indicator was not calibrated, and the owner’s calculation was based on an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the exact power setting, just a guess.
Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why rumors are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just won’t go away.
I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated far better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data recording (OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data without a long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics International MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good standards with reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and regurgitate vast amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found that some of their customers have used the extra channels to monitor things like engine cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot is that epoxy REALLY getting?), and other nuggets of information useful to the rest of us.
This rant is motivated by last night’s rereading Kent Paser’s excellent book, Speed with Economy (1994, possibly available through EAA). It documents Kent’s 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP Mustang II. Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to calibrate his instruments and conduct careful experiments making changes one at a time to isolate what worked and what didn’t. Net result: an increase of 64 MPH in top speed and 59 MPH in cruise speed. Slowed to his old economy cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to detail and such.
If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another can study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation interests even better than we are now doing.
Moreno’s challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) “test reports” documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and how you checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise that if I ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will keep testing and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it should not be an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help advance our “state-of-the-art.”
I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying to capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of physics), Money, and Bullshit.
It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real data.
Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
--
20/10/2006
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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