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701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

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ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: 701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

Hi All,

  The only time I posted a message on this list was to sell my 701 rudder kit...well I'm glad to say... it didn't sell, because I'm back to building!  I want to say this list is the best resource ever.  Everyone is really supportive and full of so much knowledge.  

   

  My 701 plans are in route and I'm trying to determine if I want to scratch build or go the sub-kit route.  So before I start researching and get analysis paralysis, does anyone out there building a 701 from scratch have a good idea what the airframe materials costed in total? I've visited Jon Crokes 701 site, excellent site by the way and found a list of materials, layout patterns and so forth but nothing on approximate cost savings when compared to purchasing the sub-kits.

   

  Also I see that Zen is now CNC machining some of there parts,  has anyone had an assembly issues with the pre-drilled holes in any of there parts? The first thing I noticed when working on the rudder is the edge distances are hard to maintain.  In school I was taught 2-4D and been able to comply, thus far, but I'm concerned that this may rule may become extinct once I purchase pre-drilled parts.

   

   

  Thanks for your time.

  Art

  701/Rudder in-work/Plans/KS   

 [quote][b]

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: 701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

Hi Art,



 I am building a 601 from subkits, but I feel it is likely the same issues appear on the 701.



 First let me say I feel the decision to build from plans or kit is a big one and I think it would be wise to make this decision on your own feelings about the tasks to be done rather than on the price difference.  While it seems like you can save some money by building from scratch, you pick up so many additional tasks compared to building from kit that you must count your own time and effort as worthless to say you really save any cost.  Some people really love scratch building and to them I say: "Have a ball".  For others, the goal of getting airborne in a reasonable amount of time may be worth allowing ZAC to track down the materials, do the more difficult tasks including bending long pieces of aluminum, solid rivet setting, and welding steel parts.



 On the subject of pre-drilled parts, I have a rather negative pile of experience.  The pre-drilled parts I have received have not lived up to the same standards of excellence I would expect if I had done the drilling myself.  This may improve with the new equipment, but there are still big problems to overcome.  For example, on a wing where the ribs and rear channel are not pre-drilled but the skins are drilled you face the issue of matching your position for the ribs to the position assumed when the skins were drilled.  They will certainly not match, and you will have to find a way to average out all the position errors to stay within the edge distance requirements.  It can be done, but I found it easier to order the skins for my third wing (after having to scrap the first one) without the holes drilled so I could put them in exactly the right places myself.



 I really have a problem with the hole drilling ZAC does, mainly because the holes don't show up on the plans.  I would much prefer they followed the industry standard of the drawings being the "Gospel" rather than adding value by drilling holes where they think they might be useful instead of shipping parts that match the drawings.



 In any event, I wish you luck with your project.



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 08:48 PM 10/28/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi All,

 The only time I posted a message on this list was to sell my 701 rudder kit...well I'm glad to say... it didn't sell, because I'm back to building!  I want to say this list is the best resource ever.  Everyone is really supportive and full of so much knowledge.  

  

 My 701 plans are in route and I'm trying to determine if I want to scratch build or go the sub-kit route.  So before I start researching and get analysis paralysis, does anyone out there building a 701 from scratch have a good idea what the airframe materials costed in total? I've visited Jon Crokes 701 site, excellent site by the way and found a list of materials, layout patterns and so forth but nothing on approximate cost savings when compared to purchasing the sub-kits.

  

 Also I see that Zen is now CNC machining some of there parts, has anyone had an assembly issues with the pre-drilled holes in any of there parts? The first thing I noticed when working on the rudder is the edge distances are hard to maintain.  In school I was taught 2-4D and been able to comply, thus far, but I'm concerned that this may rule may become extinct once I purchase pre-drilled parts.

  

  

 Thanks for your time.

 Art

 701/Rudder in-work/Plans/KS   



  	  Quote: 	
		  



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 Paul Mulwitz

 32013 NE Dial Road

 Camas, WA 98607

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John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: 701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

Art, 

  I did the math a long time ago and determined  that I could save about $7-8K by scratch building (701), I cheat however as this  is my 4th homebuilt and have a hanger full of all the tools needed plus  shear, brake, Tig, etc etc.  It took me about a month(part time)to build  the "kit" (including forms). Pretty good wages!!

  I get pretty amused at all the posts from  builders having dimension problems with parts that came in the kit.  That  is NOT an issue if scratch building. Scratch building DOES have it's own set of  snags , the 701 is pretty straight forward however, a LOT easier than my first  project ,an RV3 built in the dark ages. 26 pages of drawings, 13 pages of  instructions and no internet. Al hadn't invented it yet. 'Course if you got  stuck and had to call, Van answered the phone and knew you and his  brother Jerry would stop in and help build if he had a layover close by.   Doubt if Dick answers the phone anymore.  LOW&SLOW   John 

  

  

 [quote]   My 701 plans are in route and I'm trying to determine if I want to    scratch build or go the sub-kit route.  So before I start    researching and get analysis paralysis, does anyone out there    building a 701 from scratch have a good idea what the airframe materials    costed in total? I've visited Jon Crokes 701 site, excellent site by the way    and found a list of materials, layout patterns and so forth but nothing    on approximate cost savings when compared to purchasing    the sub-kits.

         

[b]

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WClagg

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 21

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: 701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

Art,

 Glad you decided on the 701. I just ordered nearly all the metal from Wicks  using the materials list you mentioned. I say nearly because there are a  few items on that material list that were missed or have changed. So far very  insignificant items.

 My TOTAL cost Including freight was less than $2400.00. The rivets and a  few other items from ACS ran approx. $350.00. I think the kit is around $13,000.  

 I have brakes, instruments etc. from another project that I'll be using  which  helped me decide to go the scratch built route and having been in  the air conditioning business 26 years I have about all the sheet metal tools I  need a also.

 Don't get overwhelmed when you look at the drawings. Do one item at a time  and think before you cut [don't ask] and it will be a lot of fun! Thats what it  is about isn't it?

 Wayne Clagg

 Ch701 assembling wings.

 Oh yea, do not archive

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_________________
Wayne Clagg

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: 701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

Thanks Paul & John your comments are appreciated, the decision is a tough one because I enjoy the building and the flying equally.  If I do go the sub-kit path, I will take Paul's advise and not have the wing skins pre-drilled.

   

   

  Art/701/1%/KS

   

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ding(at)tbscc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: 701 Scratch vs Sub-Kits?

Art,

              It may be that Zenith has improved their quality control with  the newer production equipment. My 601XL kit was manufactured in Feb. 2006, and  the predrilled holes have been extremely accurate. After building one wingtip,  with those rather challenging curves, I was able to cleco left/right wing skins  together back to back, using the perfectly aligned holes, and draw the  opposite side tip curves for exact symmetry.  I've found the predrilled  holes to be quite a time saver.

                                                                     Lynn

 `                                                               Corry,  PA

                                                                  601XL / Corvair

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