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Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

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tpcolman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

I'm a lurker here.  Your note dovetails exactly with a question I have been trying to get an answer to, namely if a Kitfox is rated at 1400 lbs. can it be operrated under the Sport Pilot rules.  This question is important because if the answer is yes there is a Kitfox on Barnstormers I want to buy, and right away.



So, from reading your note, say a PP operates a Kitfox 5 at a max weight of 1400 lbs., then he sells that plane.  Can a SP operate the same airplane at a max weight of 1320 and be legal?



Thanks,

Tim Colman



---

84KF
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs

§ 61.315  (a) 

If you hold a sport pilot certificate you may act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft, except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section



And what is the weight limit definition of lightsport aircraft?

"maximum takeoff weight".?

Then, what is the definition of "maximum takeoff weight".?



Knowing that there is a exact definition for "maximum tateoff weight" use that definition to determine "maximum takeoff weight" as it applies to the perameter  and do not be concerned with the design weight of an expermintal.

 And a series 5 or 7, depending on empty weight will most times fit the definition and has been able to, since it was issued it's airworthiness certificate. ("since original certification")

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

Steve,



One question.  Since you seem quite convinced as to your interpretation of 

the LSA regs., would you be willing to personally guarantee Tim Colman that 

if he buys that Kitfox he has been looking at and it somehow turns out he 

can't fly it as a LSA, you would reimburse him all costs and assume 

ownership of the airplane.



I think it is one thing to persevere in ones beliefs, but I see problems if 

by persuasion, another is harmed by potentially erroneous advice.  From what 

I have read in the alphabet organizations, you seem to be pretty much alone 

in your view of the LSA regs, but this would be an easy way to prove your 

commitment to your intrepretation.



Consider that if you are willing to indemnify Tim, you will be doing it in 

front of about 400 witnesses.



Lowell



---

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

Tim I am not the final word of the faa.  However I recieved an airworthyness 

certificate for an Avid A model that I set the gross weight at 1050 lbs.   

This was 200 lbs more than the original kit.  You can apply for the ORIGINAL 

aw certificate with a MAX GROSS WEIGHT of 1320.  This would not be a 

modification or manipulation of the rule.  That plane would fit the bill, 

but might go overweight easily.  ANY OTHER PLANE THAT IS AW GW OVER 1320 IS 

A NO.  Couldn't fly my Cessna low on fuel and qualify could I !!!!!   

Sorry....  Just my opinion     Ron NB Ore

[quote]From: Timothy Colman <tpcolman(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff 

wei

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 15:19:30 -0800 (PST)






I'm a lurker here.  Your note dovetails exactly with a question I have been 

trying to get an answer to, namely if a Kitfox is rated at 1400 lbs. can it 

be operrated under the Sport Pilot rules.  This question is important 

because if the answer is yes there is a Kitfox on Barnstormers I want to 

buy, and right away.



So, from reading your note, say a PP operates a Kitfox 5 at a max weight of 

1400 lbs., then he sells that plane.  Can a SP operate the same airplane at 

a max weight of 1320 and be legal?



Thanks,

Tim Colman



---

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

Tim,



Regardless of how many different ways we pick apart the definitions of the 

Light Sport Category, I am convinced the FAA will not allow you to operate a 

1400 lb gross weight Kitfox as a Light Sport Aircraft.  It would be 

wonderful if we could, and admire Steve for thinking there is a way around 

this.  But until you see a rule change, or get a written approval from your 

FSDO (or better yet Oklahoma City) be careful purchasing an airplane 

thinking it will qualify for LSA when all other sources say it won't.



The FAA many times has fielded the question whether one can just reduce 

their aircrafts gross weight number so it will qualify as a Light Sport 

aircraft, and every time their response has been  been "no".  Now if Steve 

can challenge them and get a change, my hats off to him (you'd be a true 

hero if you can pull that one off...)



But until that happens, if I were in the process of buying an airplane that 

was questionable LSA, I would follow the advice readily available from 

sources like EAA's technical specialist Joe Norris (who has direct contacts 

with FAA's Sport Pilot section, is a licensed A&P / IA with years of 

practical experience, and is a DAR for Light sport aircraft), or the FAA 

itself.



Just my two cents worth.



Paul Seehafer

Central Wisconsin

Model IV Kitfox



---

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/



Call your local FSDO!  I've called mine several times to clarify rules and interpretations.  The local guys in Portland, Maine are friendly, helpful, and professional.

_________________
Dave
Piper PA-22/20

84KF
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs

To anyone just now joining the conversation.... You must read the original post "Do the math..... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=17173



I would like to be directed to a definition of "maximum take off weight" as found in the FAR's or any regulatory publication as many here believe there is. There is only one., and it is included in and located at page 44793 of 

Federal Register 

Certification of Aircraft and Airman for the Operation of Light-Sport aircraft; Final Rule. Dated July 27, 2004. This is it verbatium.

"The maximum weight of a light-sport aircraft is the sum of:

(1) Aircraft empty weight;

(2) Weight of the passenger for each seat installed;

(3) Baggage allowance for each passenger; and

(4) Full fuel, including a minimum of the half-hour fuel reserve required for day visual flight rules in §91.151 (a)(1)."



(repeated from original post, my OWN words...)

no other definition, or use of the term “maximum weight” as found in the F.A.R’s or elsewhere may be substituted at will. Not Gross weight, Maximum Gross weight, Maximum gross takeoff weight, or any of the other “terms “ that are tossed around.

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

You could certify a Model 7 with a max gross weight of 1320 pounds.  Once the plane is certified, the gross weight can't be modified.  If a Private Pilot later buys the plane, gross weight will remain at 1320 pounds, and it won't matter that the plane was designed for a higher max gross weight.  This could lower the value of your plane, specially for non-sport pilot prospects.  



If you fly that plane at 1550 pounds, you know that the plane was designed for that weight, but it will be illegal.



Jose



---

84KF
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs

Yes you would, because the "maximum takeoff weight " (for land) is 1320lbs. 

One has to load the aircraft correctly to remain in accordance with the definition of " Maximum takeoff weight" So what if the aircraft will lift 1500 lbs???  

Keep the total weight of (1). (2), (3) and (4) at or below 1320 and go fly.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

I do not follow  sport pilot stuff  but what is advantage to this class?



I always thought a N numbers home built was  fine ?  Or was there 

limitations?



Can a private pilot not fly one just fine ?

Dave

---

_________________
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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

The advantage to being a Sport Pilot (SP) is that you don't need a 3rd 

class medical to qualify to fly as a SP...all you need is a valid 

state-issued driver's license.  If you think that you may flunk your 

next medical for your Private Pilot (PP) license, let your PP license 

lapse, and fly as a SP, but only in an LSA airplane. If you have been 

denied your PP due to flunking your last medical, you have to get that 

resolved, then you can get your PP license reinstated, and after it is 

reinstated, you can, of course, fly as a PP, but at the next renewal, 

let the PP lapse and fly as an SP...but ONLY in an LSA-type airplane.



Now the catch...you can only fly a plane that qualifies as a Light 

Sport Aircraft (LSA), which must meet several criteria, such as the 

maximum gross weight that has been mentioned here lately, of 1320 gross 

pounds, or 1430 pounds if it is a float plane.

Having the SP license, or flying *AS* an SP, means you cannot fly at 

night, or over 10,000' MSL altitude, or in a retractable-gear 

plane....only in a plane that meets the aforementioned LSA rules and 

limitations.



Yes, a PP can fly one, and fly one at night, and over 10,000' MSL, etc.



Lynn

On Thursday, November 2, 2006, at 03:16  PM, dave wrote:



[quote] 



 I do not follow  sport pilot stuff  but what is advantage to this 

 class?



 I always thought a N numbers home built was  fine ?  Or was there 

 limitations?



 Can a private pilot not fly one just fine ?

 Dave

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

Thanks Lynn, that really cleared up allot.



So basically  a LSA pilot can fly any wheel plane up to 1320.



I used to get a Cat 1 medical when I was commercial  but after I turned 40 

I went to cat 3 medical with only Private pilot privileges now or I would 

have to get every 6 months I think done.

Now I get medical every  2 years which is not bad and a drivers medical for 

me is every 3 years with testing every 5 year due to my license.



Hey by the way --  It getting colder out and how if your pot scrubber heater 

working?

Snow not too far away , are you a ski flyer ?

Dave

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

Yes, any wheel plane up to 1320, as long as it's "maximum straight and 

level flight speed at max continuous power does not exceed 120 knots" 

...that last part is from memory, and mine is kinda sluggish some 

days. : )



Interesting thing about the pot scrubber heater....I have removed the 

aluminum scrubbers from the one side that had them, and replaced with 

stainless steel. Now both sides (one heater muff on each front-side 

exhaust pipe on Jabiru 2200 engine) have the stainless steel pot 

scrubbers installed to pick up heat from exhaust pipe. After this mod, 

I went for a flight on a 32 F  (or so) day, and the heater seemed to be 

working VERY well...so well that I shut one cabin heater off. It was 

still VERY comfortable, so I shut the other one off. Then I noticed 

that the OAT was reading 59 F.  I thought that the OAT was faulty, and 

I was going to have to look into that. Apparently there was some kind 

of temperature inversion going on, and it was actually 59F at about 

3000' altitude. So my test was inconclusive, and the winds were picking 

up and I haven't flown the plane since....windy, rainy, snow yesterday, 

and other things going on....nope, not a ski flier...yet.



Lynn

do not archive

On Friday, November 3, 2006, at 08:32  AM, dave wrote:



[quote] 



 Thanks Lynn, that really cleared up allot.



 So basically  a LSA pilot can fly any wheel plane up to 1320.



 I used to get a Cat 1 medical when I was commercial  but after I 

 turned 40 I went to cat 3 medical with only Private pilot privileges 

 now or I would have to get every 6 months I think done.

 Now I get medical every  2 years which is not bad and a drivers 

 medical for me is every 3 years with testing every 5 year due to my 

 license.



 Hey by the way --  It getting colder out and how if your pot scrubber 

 heater working?

 Snow not too far away , are you a ski flyer ?

 Dave

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

84KF
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs

Lynn, 

  Rember to use the term "maximum takeoff weight", not gross weight or anything else that is undefinable when refering to light-sport aircraft weight issues.. The condition, or, perameter to meet is "gross takeoff weight" and there is a definition for that and an explanation in the rule of why it, and only it applies in the definition of "light-sport aircraft". 



Page 44793 of 

Federal Register/ Vol. 69, No. 143/ Tuesday, July 27, 2004/rules and Regulations:  

The maximum weight of a light-sport aircraft is the sum of: 

(1) Aircraft empty weight; 

(2) Weight of the passenger for each seat installed; 

(3) Baggage allowance for each passenger; and 

(4) Full fuel, including a minimum of the half-hour fuel reserve required for day visual flight rules in §91.151 (a)(1). 



Steve

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei

Thanks, Steve, I'll remember that...



Lynn

do not archive

On Friday, November 3, 2006, at 09:58  AM, 84KF wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn,

   Rember to use the term "maximum takeoff weight", not gross weight or 

 anything else that is undefinable when refering to light-sport 

 aircraft weight issues.. The condition, or, perameter to meet is 

 "gross takeoff weight" and there is a definition for that and an 

 explanation in the rule of why it, and only it applies in the 

 definition of "light-sport aircraft".



 Page 44793 of

 Federal Register/ Vol. 69, No. 143/ Tuesday, July 27, 2004/rules and 

 Regulations:

 The maximum weight of a light-sport aircraft is the sum of:

 (1) Aircraft empty weight;

 (2) Weight of the passenger for each seat installed;

 (3) Baggage allowance for each passenger; and

 (4) Full fuel, including a minimum of the half-hour fuel reserve 

 required for day visual flight rules in §91.151 (a)(1).



 Steve

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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