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Help Required from our American Friends

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alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Hi Guys  

   

The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished glider wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your wonderful FAA. I have just been informed that they will not allow an experimental aircraft built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace. There suggestion was to completely dismantle the aircraft and have it rebuilt in America of at least 51% of it. Obviously this is a ridiculous suggestion. Surely there must be a way for me to import the aircraft? All suggestions and assistance would be appreciated as we plan to move to Florida for the winters and I want to bring my aircraft with me if at all possible.  

Many Thanks  

   

Alan  

       [quote][b]

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

We're the Friendly Aviation Authority and we're here to help you!

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Alan Burrows" <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Help Required from our American Friends

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 22:37:02 -0000

Hi Guys

The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished glider

wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your wonderful FAA. I

have just been informed that they will not allow an experimental aircraft

built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace. There suggestion was to completely

dismantle the aircraft and have it rebuilt in America of at least 51% of 

it.

Obviously this is a ridiculous suggestion. Surely there must be a way for 

me

to import the aircraft? All suggestions and assistance would be appreciated

as we plan to move to Florida for the winters and I want to bring my

aircraft with me if at all possible.

Many Thanks

Alan

_________________________________________________________________

Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free 

trip! 

http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

I would be careful about who you are getting these answers from.

Different FSDO offices are notorious for interpreting rules

differently. Ask them to cite the FAR where this requirement is spelled

out. Check the regs for yourself. They are all available online. If the

FAR is vague, call EAA or contact an office higher up the chain,

perhaps an office in Washington, DC.



I am not aware of any regulation that says the 51% must be performed

within the U.S. As far as I know, the only requirement is that the

aircraft must be inspected by a FAA authorized inspector. Does the fact

that your aircraft is already registered in a foreign country prevent

you from registering it in the U.S? I doubt it, but unless someone can

show you where it says you can't, you have to assume that you can.

--- Alan Burrows <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Guys

 

  

 

 The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished

 glider

 wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your wonderful

 FAA. I

 have just been informed that they will not allow an experimental

 aircraft

 built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace. There suggestion was to

 completely

 dismantle the aircraft and have it rebuilt in America of at least 51%

 of it.

 Obviously this is a ridiculous suggestion. Surely there must be a way

 for me

 to import the aircraft? All suggestions and assistance would be

 appreciated

 as we plan to move to Florida for the winters and I want to bring my

 aircraft with me if at all possible.

 

 Many Thanks

 

  

 

 Alan

 

 


	




Andrew Sarangan

http://www.sarangan.org

96victor(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

On 11/1/06, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com (asarangan(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com  (asarangan(at)yahoo.com)>

I would be careful about who you are getting these answers from.

Different FSDO offices are notorious for interpreting rules

differently. Ask them to cite the FAR where this requirement is spelled 

out. Check the regs for yourself. They are all available online. If the

FAR is vague, call EAA or contact an office higher up the chain,

perhaps an office in Washington, DC.



I am not aware of any regulation that says the 51% must be performed 

within the U.S. As far as I know, the only requirement is that the

aircraft must be inspected by a FAA authorized inspector. Does the fact

that your aircraft is already registered in a foreign country prevent

 you from registering it in the U.S? I doubt it, but unless someone can

show you where it says you can't, you have to assume that you can.

--- Alan Burrows <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com  (alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Guys



 The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished

 glider

 wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your wonderful 

 FAA. I

 have just been informed that they will not allow an experimental

 aircraft

 built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace. There suggestion was to

 completely

 dismantle the aircraft and have it rebuilt in America of at least 51% 

 of it.

 Obviously this is a ridiculous suggestion. Surely there must be a way

 for me

 to import the aircraft? All suggestions and assistance would be

 appreciated

 as we plan to move to Florida for the winters and I want to bring my 

 aircraft with me if at all possible.



 Many Thanks



 Alan


	




Andrew Sarangan

http://www.sarangan.org

  

 Something is screwy.  There are lots of experimental aircraft that are built in other countries and fly in the USA.  In fact, Thomas (last name excapes me) that flew around the world in his Europa is presently flying in California and it was built in Germany!  As Andrew said, check with another FSDO.  If you continue to have trouble, I will try to help by contacting some here. 

  

 Tom Friedland, XS Mono, Washington State.



 



  [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Thomas Sherer would be a logical source of information regarding this 

issue.



Thomas?



Fred

A194



On Wednesday, November 1, 2006, at 02:37 PM, Alan Burrows wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Guys



  



 The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished 

 glider wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your 

 wonderful FAA. I have just been informed that they will not allow an 

 experimental aircraft built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace. There 

 suggestion was to completely dismantle the aircraft and have it 

 rebuilt in America of at least 51% of it. Obviously this is a 

 ridiculous suggestion. Surely there must be a way for me to import the 

 aircraft? All suggestions and assistance would be appreciated as we 

 plan to move to Florida for the winters and I want to bring my 

 aircraft with me if at all possible.



 Many Thanks



  



 Alan

scrimm

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 81
Location: Gilbert, SC SC99

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

This is complete BS. There is not a restriction to keep an aircraft

registered in an ICAO country from flying in US airspace.  I remember

reading where a Europa was put on the boat on it's trailer, shipped to the

US hauled to an airport, assembled and it flew over here all summer.



They can't restrict an aircraft certified by another international approving

authority from flying in the US.  If you were to fly here they can't stop

you.  The same thing that they didn't question Thomas's trips around the

world in his US registered EXPERIMENTAL aircraft.  Same rule applies.



Steve

Give them hell



--

_________________
Steve Crimm
N42AH

SPurpura(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

THE FAA CAN BE VERY ANAL,TRY ANOTHER FSDO. [quote][b]

europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Help Required from our American Friends

 	  alan(at)kestrel-insurance wrote: 	
		  ...have been dealt a severe blow by your wonderful FAA. I have just been informed that they will not allow an experimental aircraft built abroad to fly in U.S. airspace. 	


Will this be a temporary visit? Is it foreign registered? If yes to both, just fly the airplane here.  Thereâ€™s foreign registered aircraft which fly here all the time.  ATC doesnâ€™t give a hoot, and controllers donâ€™t know the fine points of rules which donâ€™t concern them, nor care.  I just looked at the Regs, and Iâ€™m confused.  If thereâ€™s a rule which says a foreign, amateur-built A/C must be N# registered (verses registration as an import of a production A/C, retaining its foreign registration and markings), I canâ€™t find it yet.



Fred F.

europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Help Required from our American Friends

 	  scrimm wrote: 	
		  This is complete BS. There is not a restriction to keep an aircraft registered in an ICAO country from flying in US airspace. 	


That be true, but their response was only partial BS.  Disassembling the A/C (as if we could do so to a composite design) and reassembling it would _not_ meet the 51% rule. A foreign homebuilt appears to be in Regulatory limbo for basing here permanently.



What I get from the Regs is the restriction is to prevent construction of A/C in a foreign country under their amateur-built rules and then export for sale here, retaining foreign registration.  There would be airplanes manufactured by forced child labor in Bangladesh, if that govâ€™t didnâ€™t care if their amateur-built rules were being cheated.



Ironically, we do have a new rule sort of like that.  Light sport aircraft.  Most of the ones for sale here are manufactured in foreign countries, not quite Bangladesh or Namibia...yet.  The manufacturer need merely certify on a simple form they send FAA that the aircraft complies with industry standards. N# registered here like anything else.



Fred F.

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Alan,



If you are only in Florida for the winters why do you want to keep the 

Europa there for the whole year ? You can fly it on the G registration, and 

take it back home in the spring. Car ferries operate frequently between 

Southampton and East Coast ports, including Florida, and their shipping 

rates are quite reasonable. And unless you happen to have free storage for 

the motorglider, you would save a lot on hangarage charges.



Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Guys



The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished glider

wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your wonderful FAA. I

have just been informed that they will not allow an experimental aircraft

built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace. There suggestion was to completely

dismantle the aircraft and have it rebuilt in America of at least 51% of 

it.

Obviously this is a ridiculous suggestion. Surely there must be a way for 

me

to import the aircraft? All suggestions and assistance would be appreciated

as we plan to move to Florida for the winters and I want to bring my

aircraft with me if at all possible.



Many Thanks



Alan




	


_________________________________________________________________

Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! 

http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Alan

 When you do get an answer to your question please let me know  as I was hoping to do the very same thing in years to come. 

 BTW what about the transport costs to the US. Do you have any  figures?

 Steve Pitt

   [quote][b]

rowil(at)clara.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

At 2006-11-01 22:37 +0000 Alan Burrows wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The grand plan to transport my trigear(complete with newly finished 

glider wings) to the U.S. have been dealt a severe blow by your 

wonderful FAA. I have just been informed that they will not allow an 

experimental aircraft built abroard to fly in U.S. airspace


	


Alan - you should probably talk with James or Hugh McDiarmid (father 

or son, I can't remember which is which now) who took G-BWRO to USA 

for an extended period some time ago. The aircraft is with another 

owner John Holt now, but James or Hugh might be able to offer some 

advice. See old copies of the Club member list for their contact 

details.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson (former Europa Club Membership Secretary)

| e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:48 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Hi Fred



Yes it's British registered and I am hoping to keep it in the U.S. permanently, I am happy to move it to the N register if that helps as we will be living at Spruce Creek airpark in Florida for the winters. I am told that the rules covering experimental aircraft are different to those governing certified aircraft, but I can't find anyone who actually knows. Just the FAA guy who says NO..!

Any help you can offer would be great.

Kind Regards



Alan



--

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:55 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Karl



I do have free storage I live on Spruce Creek airpark in Florida and

presently have a large EMPTY hanger just waiting for my aircraft, but your

idea of just having it there for part of the year is interesting. I am told

that I can't have in the U.S. at all..! 

Do you know anything different to that? Bear in mind it's an experimental

aircraft not a certified one, therefore the rules are different.



Alan



--

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Hi Steve  

I found a company that specialized in transporting aircraft and the cost is about 2k or in my case about 2.5k as I need a 40ft container due to the length of the glider wings.  

Hope you are well and look forward to seeing you at Sun n Fun next year?  

All the Best  

   

Alan   

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt

 Sent: 02 November 2006 19:51

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RE: Help Required from our American Friends  

  

     

Alan  

    

When you do get an answer to your question please let me know as I was hoping to do the very same thing in years to come.   

    

BTW what about the transport costs to the US. Do you have any figures?  

    

Steve Pitt  

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       [quote][b]

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Hi Roland



I don't have access to the old membership lists do I? Any chance you can get

me an email address for them please.

Kind Regards



Alan



--

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Alan,



There is an article in issue 26 of the Europa Aircraft News (4 1/2 pages) by 

James McDairmid, who took his G-BWRO to the States and flew it there for a 

year. There is no indication of any restriction flying the foreign 

registered aircraft.

The car ferry is probably of no interest to you, unless you have a trailer, 

but it is the easiest and cheapest way to transport a Europa to anywhere in 

the world.



Karl





[quote]From: "Alan Burrows" <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: RE: Help Required from our American Friends

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:33:46 -0000




<alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com>



Hi Roland



I don't have access to the old membership lists do I? Any chance you can 

get

me an email address for them please.

Kind Regards



Alan



--

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Help Required from our American Friends

Alan



I just got off the phone with "Joe" from the EAA in Oshkosh.  It sounds like bringing experimental aircraft from the UK has been done plenty of times before.  In general terms the process is.



1.  The aircraft is first de registered in the UK.  I am not sure if you are asked to provide proof of this or not.



2.  You then apply for registration with the FAA.   It must be registered with a legal entity that the FAA can use, for example a US citizen, permanent resident, or a holding company.



3.  You then need to apply for an airworthiness inspection.  This doesn't have to be done by the FAA, a designated inspector is okay.  He will be looking for a condition inspection, and proof that it meets the US rules for amateur build aircraft, such as the 51% rule.  A builders log would help a lot.  



You might have trouble getting a repairmens certificate issued, I know Thomas did, however if your the builder and you can prove it with builders log then I would just ask for one, chances are there won't be a problem.



Hope this helps,  Paul



--

europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Help Required from our American Friends

 	  alan(at)kestrel-insurance wrote: 	
		  ...I am hoping to keep it in the U.S. permanently, I am happy to move it to the N register if that helps as we will be living at Spruce Creek airpark in Florida for the winters. 	


Alan --



The oral opinion Paul obtained seems to me to clearly support what FAR Part 21 literally says, but I recommend you get it in writing.  However, a written one from even a local office manager is not binding upon the agency.  Our administrative law on this rule is said to date back to your rather old principle in the UK where â€œThe King can do wrong.â€ Called "due deference" in our Courts. Deregister in UK and thence fail with a local FAA guy is called legal limbo.



Write to FAA in Washington and ask for a Chief Counsel Opinion, not a Legal Interpretation. If they back it down to an interp, their privilege. See www.faa.gov. State exactly what the situation is and what you propose --  N# registration, and following an FAA inspection and approval, certification as amateur-built. Say sheâ€™s on FAAâ€™s presumptive list of 51% kits. Describe your rules and how the PFA is really anal about the dinkiest of mods, so no unapproved ones done. Point out that itâ€™s a motorglider, as a special rule for them. State that one FAA office has advised that you would have to disassemble/reassemble, but that does not meet the 51% rule in the slightest.  It makes absolutely no sense to compromise safety in such a bizarre manner -- a perfectly good airplane now under PFA analness. Cite Paulâ€™s offering of contrary advice found, so they know to please cogitate over the question.



There is a possibility they might issue an opinion that wonâ€™t work.  I worked 30 years for a federal agency, both civil and criminal enforcement, but we didnâ€™t behave quite the way FAA does. On the FAA web site is a database of FAA legal opinions.  The vast majority appear very sound, but a few Iâ€™ve read are sophomoric in analysis or insulting in tone. It suggests a loosely-structured shop of lawyers who really need the job in high-cost Washington.  Unlike many other federal agencies, thereâ€™s no future, high six-figure career path for a lawyer in that field.



Briefly in the 70s, I managed the shop which cranked out opinions under President Nixonâ€™s wage/price controls. We called them interpretations, not rulings, as no procedural regulation gave then that status. Unlike FAAâ€™s, ours were appealable, but the hoot was I was the appeals officer.  Hence, my subordinates signed them, like FAAâ€™s interps.  Around an $8 trillion (in todayâ€™s dollars) economy in part managed by fakery.  Nobody wanted the job; I applied for the perceived, pure fun of it.  It was.



If you wish further help in writing to our FAA, just lemme know via private email.  I was a federal bureaucrat once, and how enquirers get treated is what they say.  Very little British idiom in your posts, BTW.  We can easily work on that!  Important also in context here, among other matters.



Fred F.

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