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Still Learning

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: Still Learning

All,

         I went out today to do some slow flight and it digressed into a 

little more than that. First I discovered that if you really pull back 

during power-on stalls you can get the plane to about a 45 - 60 degree 

pitch angle; and both the wings and horizontal stabilizer / elevator stall. 

It's quite exciting, as everything buffets like crazy, the plane drops sort 

of flat and you have to push forward hard to get everything hooked up 

again. (Yeah, I know, I probably should have been wearing a chute.)

         Next I practiced some accelerated stalls from 45 degrees at about 

55MIAS. The interesting thing was that turning left the inside wing stalled 

first and I tucked under. Going right the outside wing stalled and I went 

over the top. (Actually I just went flat. It was very benign.) I carefully 

watched the ball and the effect was very repeatable so I'm not sure why, 

other than that I sit on the left side of the plane. I even went back and 

did more stalls straight ahead and both wings broke together repeatedly.

         Finally, and most important, I did some engine out turn-back 

practice. I found that from a 55 or 60MIAS full throttle climb I could turn 

back in 200' of vertical altitude, even with a 3-count time delay after 

throttle off. When I pulled the throttle I would count 3, push hard, while 

rolling into a 45 degree bank, and pull, holding 60 - 70MIAS until 

horizontal, whereupon I rolled out sharply. I did about ten of them and 

every one was under 200' altitude loss. So now I know that if my engine 

quits at 500' plus I'll turn back. From 300' to 500' I can turn back to a 

taxi-way or some other parallel landing spot, if it exists. And from 0 - 

300' I land straight ahead. Obviously these options vary place to place.

         More fun!

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Still Learning

There is one question.  Was your engine still turning with the 

throttle pulled or was it dead with the prop probably 

still  turning?  I understand there is a fair difference in resulting 

loss of altitude.  Just pulling the throttle still allows the engine 

to idle and it is not the same as a stopped engine.  While it is good 

practice, the plane will not loose altitude as quickly as the truly 

stopped engine where the prop is a true drag.



Jim Crowder



At 06:15 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



All,

         I went out today to do some slow flight and it digressed 

 into a little more than that. First I discovered that if you really 

 pull back during power-on stalls you can get the plane to about a 

 45 - 60 degree pitch angle; and both the wings and horizontal 

 stabilizer / elevator stall. It's quite exciting, as everything 

 buffets like crazy, the plane drops sort of flat and you have to 

 push forward hard to get everything hooked up again. (Yeah, I know, 

 I probably should have been wearing a chute.)

         Next I practiced some accelerated stalls from 45 degrees at 

 about 55MIAS. The interesting thing was that turning left the 

 inside wing stalled first and I tucked under. Going right the 

 outside wing stalled and I went over the top. (Actually I just went 

 flat. It was very benign.) I carefully watched the ball and the 

 effect was very repeatable so I'm not sure why, other than that I 

 sit on the left side of the plane. I even went back and did more 

 stalls straight ahead and both wings broke together repeatedly.

         Finally, and most important, I did some engine out 

 turn-back practice. I found that from a 55 or 60MIAS full throttle 

 climb I could turn back in 200' of vertical altitude, even with a 

 3-count time delay after throttle off. When I pulled the throttle I 

 would count 3, push hard, while rolling into a 45 degree bank, and 

 pull, holding 60 - 70MIAS until horizontal, whereupon I rolled out 

 sharply. I did about ten of them and every one was under 200' 

 altitude loss. So now I know that if my engine quits at 500' plus 

 I'll turn back. From 300' to 500' I can turn back to a taxi-way or 

 some other parallel landing spot, if it exists. And from 0 - 300' I 

 land straight ahead. Obviously these options vary place to place.

         More fun!

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: Still Learning

At 06:52 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There is one question.  Was your engine still turning with the

throttle pulled or was it dead with the prop probably

still  turning?


	


         In my case I'm not sure it makes a difference, since I'm running a 

582 with a clutch. The prop's going to turn either way. When I get more 

courage I think I'll try some true engine shut-downs over one of the 

private strips out here to see the difference and to see how the airplane 

behaves with a dead engine.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:14 am Post subject: Still Learning

Guy,   Good stuff,



How is your   prop and take off issue now ?    getting off a bit quicker ?

You should put a video cam in your cockpit with you for some of your 

80s  -would look real good.

great practice, just be careful .

I was doing last week some practice engine outs on take off but at best 

angle climb  45 mph ias

chop throttle  -- nose down immediately and select landing spot.   those 

were done from 100 to 300 agl and I would not try a 180 on take off.



I do allot of flying at under 300 agl but 180s on take off  prove to be 

fatal exercise many times too often.



Dave

---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: Still Learning

If you've got the clutch, Guy, it shouldn't make any difference. Whether the engine's off or just idling, as you've said, the prop's gonna spin and create a ton of drag. Incidently, I tested the engine loss on take-off scenario in my Model 2  and results were about the same as yours. 

   

  This is fun isn't it?



Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan 



At 06:52 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There is one question. Was your engine still turning with the

throttle pulled or was it dead with the prop probably

still turning?


	


In my case I'm not sure it makes a difference, since I'm running a 

582 with a clutch. The prop's going to turn either way. When I get more 

courage I think I'll try some true engine   [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Still Learning

At 03:13 AM 11/2/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Guy,   Good stuff,


	


Thanks Dave.



 	  Quote: 	
		  How is your   prop and take off issue now ?    getting off a bit quicker ?


	


Well, solo the other day I measured a takeoff time of 8.7 seconds, which 

compared fairly well to the 7 seconds I measured from your first video. 

It's still markedly longer, but may indicate I'm progressing in my 

technique, or I'm taking off shorter than I think. If I pull half flaps and 

run up before brake release it seems to take off instantly! I'm currently 

running 12.5 degrees of pitch which has lengthened my takeoff run, but 

increased my top speed to about 97mph at 6000' density altitude. I'm 

looking into my pipe being a problem, but have been extremely busy for two 

weeks and haven't had the time to measure.



 	  Quote: 	
		  You should put a video cam in your cockpit with you for some of your

80s  -would look real good.


	


You know, I should. One of my neighbors showed me the tiniest wireless 

camera he's using to do tuft testing of his amphibian.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I was doing last week some practice engine outs on take off but at best

angle climb  45 mph ias

chop throttle  -- nose down immediately and select landing spot.   those

were done from 100 to 300 agl and I would not try a 180 on take off.


	


No, I wouldn't either, certainly not for practice. That's why I've redlined 

my 180 at 500' unless there's an unobstructed parallel taxiway or 

something. I can just see my pulling a right 180 to the taxiway at Ramona 

and T-boning the tower! Might hurt a bit. . .

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Still Learning

Guy  ,

 Glad to see you getting shorter take offs .

7 second is long for me .  I constantly now 5 seconds 200 feet approx.



I get about 102  mph  wot  now



Camera.    mine are done with tape camcorder  and I convert to .wmv file for 

internet from analog.

I will get some cockpit ones  done  next few weeks and put them up.



Exhaust........   I think you should measure the length  from muffler to 

exhaust port through the centre of pipe with tape from outside.   I think 

the measurement is 26 or 28 "  and that is very critical .   I often 

wondered my self about it as well and according to Bob  "ROTAX " Robertson 

he told me after my query  on same that he felt the Kitfox exhaust has made 

the engines seem to last longer on the Kitfox 582 but has possibly at the 

expense of a bout 4 or 5 hp.   I think I would like the extra longevity of 

the engine seeing that mine working well .    I installed a brand new 582 

for a  guy this past summer and it came with new exhaust.  I compared it to 

mine and to be honest I think the measurement was about within specs but I 

did find that the stock Rotax "Y " pipe was about 1.5 " shorter on my 

kitfox.   I think that is to make it fit in the cowl.



I am quite confident that the Kitfox 582 can get you up to 40 more HP with 

proper piping and jetting but for the average guy without a full 

understanding of how to operate successfully you will end up with allot more 

power, allot more fuel usage and less engine life and most likely 

reliability.

Also --what rate of climb do you get now in your  current setup ?

Dave

---

wliles(at)bayou.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: Still Learning

Guy,

If your engine rpms with the clutch drop below 2400 the clutch is 

disengaged and you have the equivalent of an engine out.  No need to 

actually shut it down.  You can practice engine out glides and landings 

whenever you want and still have the saftey net of a running engine.  

That's what I routinely do with Tootie Mae.  The good point is you will 

know exactly how the airplane will behave should the engine ever quit.  

The bad part is the spinning prop will really cut into your glide.  I 

think the knowing part is the more important.

Jerry Liles

Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 06:52 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:

> There is one question.  Was your engine still turning with the

> throttle pulled or was it dead with the prop probably

> still  turning?

         In my case I'm not sure it makes a difference, since I'm 

 running a 582 with a clutch. The prop's going to turn either way. When 

 I get more courage I think I'll try some true engine shut-downs over 

 one of the private strips out here to see the difference and to see 

 how the airplane behaves with a dead engine.

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Still Learning

At 05:49 PM 11/3/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  If your engine rpms with the clutch drop below 2400 the clutch is

disengaged and you have the equivalent of an engine out.  No need to

actually shut it down.


	


I guess I just wanted to confirm that was true once so I wouldn't be 

surprised in the eventuality.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: Still Learning

"While it is good practice, the plane will not loose altitude as quickly as

the truly 

stopped engine where the prop is a true drag."



This is not true with my plane.  (Series 5/7, 912S)   I have a better glide

ratio with the prop stopped than I do with the engine idling.



Randy

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: Still Learning

same here



Prop a big  drag  machine  while windmilling.



Dave

---

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