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Fuel Injection

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n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: Fuel Injection

Has anyone put the Fuel injection mod on, and what have been your result,ie:



Fuel consumption, CHT, EGT performance etc?

_________________
Milt

Don

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

Contact us at airflow2(at)bellsouth.net and we can give you a customer list of people who have installed our fuel injection system on an M-14P and PF.

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Fuel Injection

Don, maybe you could let some of your customers know about this list.  I am

sure others would be interested in how the fuel injection is working?



Thanks,

Scott



--

andre.ronnberg(at)ronema.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: Fuel Injection

Andre Rönnberg



Ronema Oy

PL33, (Susikuja 15)



04131  SIPOO



Tel +358 (0)9 274 3078

Fax +358 (0)0 274 3079

Mob. +358 400 429 677

andre.ronnberg(at)ronema.inet.fi

--

FamilyGage(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: Fuel Injection

airflow2(at)bellsouth.net (airflow2(at)bellsouth.net) does not  work.  Have tried several times to reach that site.

  

 Ray Gage

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: Fuel Injection

This is the web address http://www.airflowperformance.com/  kind of hard to find anything specific to the M14, at least on a fast glance.  

   

Hope that helps  

   

Scott  

         

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FamilyGage(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:17 PM

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Injection  

  

     

airflow2(at)bellsouth.net (airflow2(at)bellsouth.net) does not work.  Have tried several times to reach that site.  

    

   

    

Ray Gage

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Fuel Injection

Ray,

 That is an email address.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

 	  N395V wrote: 	
		  Has anyone put the Fuel injection mod on, and what have been your result,ie:



Fuel consumption, CHT, EGT performance etc? 	




Well I posed this question about 10 months ago when my plane still consisted of a lot of epoxy in buckets and glass fiber in rolls.



Since then I have talked with 3 people with AFP FI on their M14s 2 in England and 1 in the US. They were quite pleased with their choices. As a result I went ahead and mounted an AFP unit on my M14PF and today tokk first flight.



It starts and runs like a high quality Swiss Watch. Fully responsive from idle to full power.



Kind of had my handsful keeping up with the plane today and didn't collect a lot of data but as phase 1 progresses I'll post updates.

_________________
Milt

andy717(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: Fuel Injection

Hi Milt,

Are you perhaps flying the Radial Rocket?  Not sure if this is coincidence,

but there was a plane being finished in the Century Aerosport hangar out in

New Century KS when I was visiting Jeff and Mark.  If that is you, I'd love

to get as much information as you can spare re: the first flight and

subsequent flights.

I am scheduled to take delivery for my kit mid-December.  I am planning on

running the M14P with the "F" blower modification from Cliff Coy.  I too

would like to run a fuel injection system  --

Congratulations on a successful first flight!

Andy Hawes

On 11/11/06 9:02 PM, "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 N395V wrote:

> Has anyone put the Fuel injection mod on, and what have been your result,ie:

> 

> Fuel consumption, CHT, EGT performance etc?

 Well I posed this question about 10 months ago when my plane still consisted

 of a lot of epoxy in buckets and glass fiber in rolls.

 Since then I have talked with 3 people with AFP FI on their M14s 2 in England

 and 1 in the US. They were quite pleased with their choices. As a result I

 went ahead and mounted an AFP unit on my M14PF and today tokk first flight.

 It starts and runs like a high quality Swiss Watch. Fully responsive from idle

 to full power.

 Kind of had my handsful keeping up with the plane today and didn't collect a

 lot of data but as phase 1 progresses I'll post updates.

 --------

 Milt

 N395V

 F1 Rocket

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=73818#73818

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Fuel Injection

Milt,

I would be extremely interested in the fuel injection conversion for the 

M14P.  Can you email further information?

Best regards,

Dennis



---

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

[quote="andy717(at)comcast.net"]Hi Milt,



Are you perhaps flying the Radial Rocket?  Not sure if this is coincidence,

but there was a plane being finished in the Century Aerosport hangar out in

New Century KS when I was visiting Jeff and Mark.  If that is you, I'd love

to get as much information as you can spare re: the first flight and

subsequent flights.



I am scheduled to take delivery for my kit mid-December.  I am planning on

running the M14P with the "F" blower modification from Cliff Coy.  I too

would like to run a fuel injection system  --



Congratulations on a successful first flight!



Andy Hawes

Andy,



Yep that's the one.



First off you are gonna love the plane. I currently fly an F1 and the Radial Rocket is just awesome. Had my inspection Friday AM and all went well. Spent the balance of Friday flushing tanks, checking out systems and fixing hose fitting leaks as well as inspecting hardware etc.



Sat AM tied the plane down and did full power runups on the ground. Started like a charm. Fully responsive throughout the power range. The unit was pretty well dialed in for the engine on the idle end but I think I may need a larger jet for top end as cylinders ran a little hot during climbouts (this may just be because it is a new engine breaking in and the type CHT transducers I have).



I had really been worried as several "knowledgable individuals" had strongly cautioned me against using the FI as it "didn't work well at all and had lots of problems"  I had talked to 2 guys in England both with a PF and the same FI unit I have. They both are airshow guys and neither would go back to a carb. One of them had an M14R (bigger blower(at)500HP with the same FI and it worked like a charm.



Talked to a Murphy Moose owner in Calif. He liked his FI on the 360 HP version. Says it stumbles a little on the go around if you are too aggressive with the throtle but not near as much as the carb did.  Don at AFP feels a little grinding of the cam will fix this. His unit is a bit smaller than what I have.

In any event after the runup we cowled it up and off to the runway. Becasuse of the lingering concern about the FI from my "experts" I am not ashamed to admit I was a little scared. Setup on the centerline of 36 and thought I was slowly advancing the throttle. Tail popped up in about 30' and was airborne well before I was ready at about 400'.



Had a slight rigging problem with the flaps with a strong L roll tendency that dissappeared with flap retraction. Climbed at 22" and 2400RPM 135KTS and about 2000 fpm. CHTs were pushing 470 till I opened the cowl flap and hit the boost pump. (Boost pump at idle tended to flood the engine). I took off on 36 turned left and then flew upwind. Turned Xwind and when I made the turn to Downwind was already at 6000'.

Throttled back to do a stall which was sort of like a Cherokee stalls and when I put the power back in rather rapidly the engine responded smoothly and promptly. No hiccups or hesitation. Balance of the flight and landing was non eventful.



The engine starts great hot or cold. Never more than 3 blades over the nose.



Modified the air induction to take air from the face of the engine as opposed to the scoop. (photos attached) You will note in the photo the scoop is closed and a new "bubble is directly below the engine. This was necessary to accomodate the FI unit. I think it actually looks nicer than the scoop. Aerosport is going to modify the prototype for fuel injection and incorporate some of my induction mods over the holidays. If you are thinking of FI you need to let them know as you will have to modify your cowl a bit.



Still haven't figured out how to place an air filter large enough to not compromise the MP. Have some rigging and minor instrumentation issues to fix then off to the paint and interior shop.



Mark and Jeff just about have your kit complete you will find them a joy to work with. They were both very helpful not only with the plane but helping in arranging living quarters and other issues while I was commuting to KC.



I have about 2000 photos from the build I'll make you a CD of them if you want.

_________________
Milt

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

 	  dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co wrote: 	
		  Milt,

I would be extremely interested in the fuel injection conversion for the 

M14P.  Can you email further information?

Best regards,

Dennis



--- 	




Dennis,



Be glad too.



As you can imagine I quite had my hands (and head) full during the first flight and data collection was not a high priority..



I have a Blue Mountain Gen 4 EFIS in the plane and when they get their shit together and the software working I will be able to log every flight as to altitude airspeed etc. Also have a JPI engine analyzer so should be able to provide some downloads from that also.



The BMA engine pod doesn't work at all yet so I went with standard guages for MP and RPM If they ever get the engine pod workinbg I can track CHT, EGT, MP, RPM, Temps, Airspeed, Alt, and OAT in graphic form.



Just based on my runups and first brief flight as well as discussing the unit with those flying it I think the AFP FI is gonna be the way to go.



I'll pass along info as I get it and will be contacting you shortly for a spark plug conversion kit and attendance at one of your maintenance courses.

_________________
Milt

andy717(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: Fuel Injection

Milt,



Thanks very much for all of the details, and congrats again.  I am

definitely interested when you get a chance, for more details re: the flap

adjustment you needed to make regarding the L. roll tendency with flaps

still extended on your initial climb?



I'll make sure Jeff and Mark are clear that I will be installing the FI

system from the Airflow Performance folks.  I'm not sure if I understand the

new bubble concept related to the FI system -- if you wouldn't mind, I'd

love to talk to you in more detail about that at a later time.  As well, if

you could keep me posted on the air filter situation, and what you end up

with, that would be great.



Yes!  I would definitely be interested in the photo album you've made.  I

will be taking tons of photos as well for future builders.  Referencing your

pics along with Dave Vorsas' will be a great help.  Thanks again.



Here is my direct email:  andy717(at)comcast.net



Thanks again for your time and I look forward to getting more details when

you get a chance,



Andy Hawes

On 11/13/06 9:33 AM, "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 [quote="andy717(at)comcast.net"]Hi Milt,

 

 Are you perhaps flying the Radial Rocket?  Not sure if this is coincidence,

 but there was a plane being finished in the Century Aerosport hangar out in

 New Century KS when I was visiting Jeff and Mark.  If that is you, I'd love

 to get as much information as you can spare re: the first flight and

 subsequent flights.

 

 I am scheduled to take delivery for my kit mid-December.  I am planning on

 running the M14P with the "F" blower modification from Cliff Coy.  I too

 would like to run a fuel injection system  --

 

 Congratulations on a successful first flight!

 

 Andy Hawes

 

 

 Andy,

 

 Yep that's the one.

 

 First off you are gonna love the plane. I currently fly an F1 and the Radial

 Rocket is just awesome. Had my inspection Friday AM and all went well. Spent

 the balance of Friday flushing tanks, checking out systems and fixing hose

 fitting leaks as well as inspecting hardware etc.

 

 Sat AM tied the plane down and did full power runups on the ground. Started

 like a charm. Fully responsive throughout the power range. The unit was pretty

 well dialed in for the engine on the idle end but I think I may need a larger

 jet for top end as cylinders ran a little hot during climbouts (this may just

 be because it is a new engine breaking in and the type CHT transducers I

 have).

 

 I had really been worried as several "knowledgable individuals" had strongly

 cautioned me against using the FI as it "didn't work well at all and had lots

 of problems"  I had talked to 2 guys in England both with a PF and the same FI

 unit I have. They both are airshow guys and neither would go back to a carb.

 One of them had an M14R (bigger blower(at)500HP with the same FI and it worked

 like a charm.

 

 Talked to a Murphy Moose owner in Calif. He liked his FI on the 360 HP

 version. Says it stumbles a little on the go around if you are too aggressive

 with the throtle but not near as much as the carb did.  Don at AFP feels a

 little grinding of the cam will fix this. His unit is a bit smaller than what

 I have.

 

 

 In any event after the runup we cowled it up and off to the runway. Becasuse

 of the lingering concern about the FI from my "experts" I am not ashamed to

 admit I was a little scared. Setup on the centerline of 36 and thought I was

 slowly advancing the throttle. Tail popped up in about 30' and was airborne

 well before I was ready at about 400'.

 

 Had a slight rigging problem with the flaps with a strong L roll tendency that

 dissappeared with flap retraction. Climbed at 22" and 2400RPM 135KTS and about

 2000 fpm. CHTs were pushing 470 till I opened the cowl flap and hit the boost

 pump. (Boost pump at idle tended to flood the engine). I took off on 36 turned

 left and then flew upwind. Turned Xwind and when I made the turn to Downwind

 was already at 6000'.

 

 

 Throttled back to do a stall which was sort of like a Cherokee stalls and when

 I put the power back in rather rapidly the engine responded smoothly and

 promptly. No hiccups or hesitation. Balance of the flight and landing was non

 eventful.

 

 The engine starts great hot or cold. Never more than 3 blades over the nose.

 

 Modified the air induction to take air from the face of the engine as opposed

 to the scoop. (photos attached) You will note in the photo the scoop is closed

 and a new "bubble is directly below the engine. This was necessary to

 accomodate the FI unit. I think it actually looks nicer than the scoop.

 Aerosport is going to modify the prototype for fuel injection and incorporate

 some of my induction mods over the holidays. If you are thinking of FI you

 need to let them know as you will have to modify your cowl a bit.

 

 Still haven't figured out how to place an air filter large enough to not

 compromise the MP. Have some rigging and minor instrumentation issues to fix

 then off to the paint and interior shop.

 

 Mark and Jeff just about have your kit complete you will find them a joy to

 work with. They were both very helpful not only with the plane but helping in

 arranging living quarters and other issues while I was commuting to KC.

 

 I have about 2000 photos from the build I'll make you a CD of them if you

 want.

 

  

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 --------

 Milt

 N395V

 F1 Rocket

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=74174#74174

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

Have everything settled in now with about 30hrs on the plane.

Biggest problems were self generated.  Fuel pump presssure set tooo low for high power and originally put the primer solenoid in reverse direction. Everytime I hit the electric boost pump the engine flooded.



Still breaking the engine in. At 32 inches and  2300 RPM I am able to decrease fuel flow from 28gph down to 15 before the engine stumbles.



Fully responsive from idle at 750 RPM to full power and 2900 rpm. No tendency to hesitate or stumble.



Have been agressively leaning on the ground and this appears to be keeping the plugs clean.

_________________
Milt

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: Fuel Injection

Milt,

Are you using the automotive spark plugs?  What altitude are those numbers

from?



Thanks,



Scott



--

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

 	  ScottA wrote: 	
		  Milt,

Are you using the automotive spark plugs?  What altitude are those numbers

from?



Thanks,



Scott



-- 	




Still the big Russian plugs but will soon convert to the automotive.



Altitude was 6000'  57 deg F OAT



As soon as I get some oyher problems fixed and a few more hours on the plane I'll take it up to the mid teens and see what I get.

_________________
Milt

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

I have posted a spreadsheet and garaphs with early numbers in the performance thread on the following forum.



http://www.excaliburaviation.com/album_frame.asp?forum=open&menuID=8~8

_________________
Milt

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injection

Finally have some real data with what I believe are accurate numbers and extrapolations.

The data sheets for these numbers can be found at http://www.excaliburaviation.com/album_frame.asp?forum=open&menuID=8~8



Under either the M14P forum or the Radial Rocket forum

Bear in mind there will be some degree of measurement and extrapolation error and your results may vary.



My initial estimates of fuel consumption of the M14PF using the AFP throttle body vs the stock pressure carb were overly optimistic and based on skewed data due to incorrectly calibrated gauges and observer bias.



I am running an M14PF on a Radial Rocket with an AFP throttle body as opposed to the stock pressure carb.   http://www.radialrocket.com/

Initially I had a good deal of heat problems (CHTs) due to baffling issues; these have been largely resolved.



Relative to the M14PF

The fuel consumption is statistically no different between the throttle body and the pressure carb when running rich of peak. The AFP fuel flows are what were needed to keep my hottest CHT at or below 380 deg F this was usually 100-150 degF ROP.



Given the engine is boosted there is room for fuel savings with the throttle body but I have not yet experimented with LOP on this engine.

Relative to the Radial Rocket 



Wit this engine, prop, and airframe combination running the pressure carb or the throttle body ROP it appears that for a burn of 15 GPH we have aâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦.

 185-190 Knot (TAS) airplane below 8000â€™

 205-210 Knot (TAS) airplane between 8000â€™  & 11,000â€™

220+ Knot (TAS) airplane depending on how much fuel you want to burn



I have no numbers above 12,00 feet as I am still having a problem with abrupt and significant power loss crossing 12,000â€™. It appears to be related to either Icing or decreasing fuel pressure.



I am going to crank the fuel pressure on the ground up to 55-60psi and or use the boost pump above 12,000â€™ to see what this doe. If that doesnâ€™t work I will try ducting some heat into the induction system.



The benefits of the Pressure Carb vs the throttle body areâ€¦.

1. Ease of operation.. 1 less lever and with the throttle body you need to make adjustments before major power changes and manage it with ascent and descent.

2. Cost (an extra $3000 for the throttle body after you have sold your carb)

Downside of the pressure carb

1. Continued availability of carb, parts, service

2. Cannot run LOP

3. If your application during the early stages requires it you cannot use fuel flow to decrease CHTs while working out baffling issues.



Benefits of the throttle body

1. Availability of the unit, parts and service.

2. Ability to run LOP (maybe) if you are a believer.

Downside of throttle body

1. Initial cost

2.  Iâ€™ll let you know the rest when I get all the bugs worked out.

As soon as I get this altitude problem resolved Iâ€™ll start running LOP and post those results



â€œcarbâ€ fuel flows are derived from Dennis Savareses data found at http://home.elmore.rr.com/yak52world/Power%20Settings.htm

Unless labeled â€carbâ€ all fuel flows are for the AFP throttle body.



CAVEATS



I am neither a mathematician nor an engine expert.

There is still some degree of measurement and extrapolation error.

This application required slightly higher fuel flow than optimal for cooling purposes.

Still have a lot of work to do and data to collect.

 

Any input or suggestions here or on the the radial rocket forum would be appreciated

_________________
Milt

MONTY(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: Fuel Injection

Milt, I believe you are correct in most of your analysis.  Slightly richer than " Best Power " mixture is a F/A ratio used by both TCM and Lycoming to control CHT and to provide some " cushion " against more that " light " detonation.



While I am a believer of LOP operation under most condtions, I suspect that this particular engine may not respond well to LOP F/A mixtures because the distribution of fuel within the diffuser will likely not be homogenous, leading to some cylinders running at different mixture strengths.  To successfully operate LOP the mixtures strengths need to be very equal.  I have seen an M14 type engine in Russia that had port injection, electronically controlled.  The first tests of the engine yielded a 

" reported " 10 BHP increase with approximately 15% reduction in required fuel.  A Significant improvement.



Whenever additional fuel is used for heat control some power is lost.  It may not be much but there is some loss, depending on the ambient conditions.

One should remember that the Russian fuel scheduling takes into account their very cold operating ambient temperature, wherein the air density is very high, and they schedule fuel based on that possibility.



I also have AFP injection for an M14-P but have not run it yet.



Monty Barrett

Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.



--

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