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RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

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Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

I'd like to float an idea to the group with the community zeroing in on 

700 builders, and that is: Why don't we organize an RV-10 Pilot & 

Aircraft Proficiency Safety Program - PAPSP- ? I believe that several of 

the certificated type's have similar programs ( I know that 

Bonanza's/Barons do) so there are models out there that can be 

adopted/examined. With the strength of the building community evidenced 

on this list, and some prior posts aimed at organizing -10 type flyins. 

Why couldn't we combine those objectives? Loosely speaking the idea 

would be to periodically (annually initially?) meet at a fly-in (what 

about Doug Reeves Land Of Enchantment?). In between the hangar talk and 

comeraderie. there could be a pilot skills clinic established to talk 

specifically to -10 issues, as well as an aircraft safety/performance 

clinic (might even couple it with a formation flying clinic) . The 

clinics could be classroom based, cockpit/airframe based, or both. A 

ciriculum/s would have to be developed, guidelines established, 

volunteerism would have to be significant, but the benefits in 

Insurance, Safety, and potential performance improvements could be 

enormous, a 'self-regulating' group would likely draw the favor of 

insurance companies and underwriters. It also could just be a "Lot of 

Fun" (and could redirect some of the energy that goes into the building 

process into the 'flying' process and potentially delay the starting of 

another project to satisfy the 'need')



Anyway just an idea,



Anybody listening?



Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/



John W. Cox wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   To Rick Sked, Bob and those thinking about Insurance alternatives. 

 Here is a historical perspective on the value of a controlled pool of 

 insured’s and the value of regular annual High Performance Training 

 beyond the token ten hours of initial Transition Training. Don’t read 

 this wrong, Mike Seager does a great job with Transition. Annual HP 

 training includes looking at every accident, each cause, critical 

 flight maneuvers and demonstrating mastery of the skills needed to 

 avoid the outcome.



 This was the solution to the Effect and the Cause was a lot of 

 motivated builders, lacking adequate skills flying beyond their 

 ability in High Performance Aircraft. This is now the norm with 

 Cirrus, Columbia and Lancair. The FAA is following the trend on 

 frequency of loss and correlation to training. The potential is there 

 for everyone at about the time you are 90% complete.



*

*

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Great idea Deems, 



I think combining it with other seminars, or should I say learning

experiences would be a good idea.  I agree and can think of some other half

hour to hour fillers.  How about into to electrics, into to fiberglass, boo

boo repair along with the proficiency safety Program.  I can see some day it

evolving to RV-10 instrument reviews/refreshers with the new glass, or guess

what I found works this way along with the physical proficiency part of the

weekend.  



I love the challenge of flying formations, and the need is great for

training in safe ways to fly formation, safe ways to rejoin or join up, and

pre-briefing on what the expected flight will be.  At work we spend more

time planning each flight and de-briefing each flight than we ever do flying

unless we are doing an across the pond, tanking scenario.   



I like the LOE site because of the people there and the attitude of the

people.  Not sure of the weather, but that's all part of the territory. 



Self insurance wise, we have gotten some good response and I will try to get

all those that replied on a monthly mailing list to keep you appraised of

the self-insurance hobbs meter.  Again, we are taking names of people that

are interested in being in a self insurance program to reduce the cost.  For

those who haven't expressed interest you can be going to

www.aircraftmutual.com and filling out an interest form.  We need 1000

people to become involved or to show interest and we are not even close yet.

That by the way was a shameless plug, and now I'll go back to putting in the

Duckworks HIDs.  



Bob K

90/92

Falling behind because of the dreaded thing called work.



--

jdalton77(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Deems,



Great idea.  I would participate in creating/attending something like this.



Jeff Dalton

Finished Emp Kit.

---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Deems - I am listening. Willing to advance the idea too.  Like LOE,

since most won't come west to VANS in September.  Tim's timing this year

seemed right on. DEN might prove doable for those flying on Air

Carriers.  It kind of needs to be near the tail of the summer flying

schedule so as not to interfere with fly outs.  I'm also partial to

Copperstate weekend.



Would be happy to lend my Lancair HPATs syllabus to the mix.



John Cox



--

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Ditto on the great idea Deems.  There is no limit to what could included in 

the agendas.



There will soon be a large enough flying fleet and resident talent to make 

this sort of thing valuable and lots of fun.



There is already an established protocol for non-warbird, non-aerobatic 

formation training.  Formation Flight Incorporated is lead by Stu McCurdy 

and his training seminars can lead to issuanace of FAA aurthorization for 

participation in formation flights in restricted airspace such as S&F and 

Oshkosh.  While it is not everyone's cup of tea, if you get the bug you will 

enjoy the experience.  It is serious business and a rewarding skill to 

learn.  Stu has already done a little work with the 10 in a mixed type 

formation and there appently will be some visibility issues to deal with.  I 

would assume these could be overcome in an all "10" flight.  Vernier type 

throttles are usually not allowed in a formation flight, as you are moving 

the throttle too much to make that workable.  The twist lock push pull type 

and lever quadrants are fine.



Dick Sipp

40065 N110DV

Finishing

bldgrv10450(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Deems



Count me in. I'll show up even if my 10 is still a bunch of parts. Could the 

idea expended to include all models of RV builders and owners?

Not a copy of the home coming at VAN's but centered around the theme of 

Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency and Safety Program. The consideration might be 

that more models in the brand with increased safe flying and maintenance 

skills could help drive down those premiums, in addition to a larger 

customer base for providers and underwriters to consider. Brand v/s model?



Could sponsors be considered to help organize and fund such an event.

Vans, EAA, insurance providers, engine builders, avionics, tools, and 

specialties.

Show displays and offers?



I'll be watching this idea grow.



Paul Grimstad

RV10 40450 fuselage

Portland, OR 97219



---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Super idea, Deems!



Model-specific proficiency training, both initial and recurrent, could 

do as much as any thing I can think of to promote safe operation and 

low insurance rates.



It appears we may have several people who could be capable instructors 

- and that's the key need.



The idea of LOE as (one) venue is particularly good - something like 

what you suggest would add greatly to both LOE and Copperstate.



What can I do to help?



do not archive

John Ackerman



On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:54 PM, Deems Davis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'd like to float an idea to the group with the community zeroing in 

 on 700 builders, and that is: Why don't we organize an RV-10 Pilot & 

 Aircraft Proficiency Safety Program

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

I think an idea like this could only help and benefit all involved. I

would be honored to participate. When I was in the Navy, I had 11

courses of instruction that I was responsible for, as well in the

civilian world I have developed training curriculum, and work in IT

helping others. I would be happy to help develop a course of instruction

and re-current training for all involved. 

I will also be working towards and completing a CFII ticket, so we could

develop a schedule around it to conduct flight reviews at the same time,

kind of a one stop RV10 clinic.



By the way did your wife give you the message I left the other day, when

you were out traveling around?  

Dan

--

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Deems, I would be interested as well depending on it's location.  Sun & Fun might be a place to consider holding such gathering.  We already have one every year for RVs (pre RV10 era) on January 19, 20 and 21.  They have the infrastructure and are accommodating regarding such events.

do not archive

 Rob Kermanj



 



On Nov 19, 2006, at 10:17 PM, John Ackerman wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>

Super idea, Deems!

Model-specific proficiency training, both initial and recurrent, could do as much as any thing I can think of to promote safe operation and low insurance rates.

It appears we may have several people who could be capable instructors - and that's the key need.

The idea of LOE as (one) venue is particularly good - something like what you suggest would add greatly to both LOE and Copperstate.

What can I do to help?

do not archive

John Ackerman

On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:54 PM, Deems Davis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>

I'd like to float an idea to the group with the community zeroing in on 700 builders, and that is: Why don't we organize an RV-10 Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency Safety Program

 	




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jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

How about doing a forum (or a couple of forums) at an event like Sun-N-Fun

or Airventure?  That seems to me to be a natural place for at least the

classroom part of the training.  We could even gather (car-pool) to a local

airport to do any flying required.  I think this would make it easier to get

a larger group of people involved.  I could certainly offer classroom

facilities at X35 either right before or right after Sun-N-Fun (or during,

for that matter).



Just thinking of logistics and getting as many people included as possible.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Deems:



Pardon me, Deems,  but...ARE YOU NUTS!



What good would this do?  Get  these bunch of yahoos together?  Crazy, man.  Look what might  happen...



1.  Create further group cohesion and allow people to meet  one another.  Always dangerous.  Democracies have started because of  meetings like these.

2.  Provide a forum for exchange of ideas.   Hell, that could lead to modifications and learning. 

3.  Give  crazed individuals a chance to show off their piloting and other skills, such as  spot landings, formation.

4.  Force people to sign a document of  insurance that would save money and take bread away from agents, who might have  children to feed.

5.  Drive those among us who haven't finished yet to  bars all over town buying drinks for those who have. 

6.  Allow  John Cox a forum.  My good gracious!  Just the thought of it has me  slack jawed!

7.  And, at least 4 other things I can't think of that  would make it the proscribed list of 10.  Important things.



Deems,  don't do it man.  People, like me, who volunteer for such things, have  rivets to pound, mightily.



John Jessen

  #40328 (buildus  interruptus)



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

For anyone who has attended a qualified, insurance reducing HPAT

seminar, they will remember that it is an intensive 16 hours of ground

school followed by 4 hours of sweat inducing maneuvers. Often wiping out

three days on a calendar with just enough time for simple socialization

at a late dinner. It is neither conducive to trade shows nor convention

atmosphere.  



We may be thinking more of a social get together.  High Alpha

approaches, engine out procedures, onboard fires (Sim) and total

electrical systems loss do not make for a sociable attendee.  Glass

cockpit proficiency is even more of the same.



The beer will be cold at Camp Condrey next OSH, on me.



John Cox



--

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: RV-10 PAPSP (Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program)

Deems,

  

 Please accept this in the vein of safety...if I can help please let me  know, I'm currently the Wing Safety Officer, Delaware CAP.  Creating a good  safety program/flight is a complex issue that will take a good bit of effort but  will be well worth the effort.  

  

 If I can help you in any way as you develop it please let me  know...additionally I work in the CAP operational area reviewing the paperwork  on our pilot activities...CAP requires each pilot to receive an annual written,  flight and oral exam similar to a BFR but with several elements for CAP's  requirements.  Additionally ORM--Operational Risk Management is a key  element to be reviewed before each flight, along with a formal inspection sheet,  flight review etc.  In the past several years, I've set up a number of  safety seminars with the FSDO's now the FAAST Teams and visits to  operations...having experienced the MAPA events also.  So there are a  number of good programs out their one can borrow from.

  

 Additionally one might want to visit the major insurance carriers to see if  they have standards on PTS and if one completes the PTS what type of discounts  one could receive.  But the best result one can receive is a group of  safety conscious pilots...who know the limits of themselves and their  aircraft.

  

 If you are really bored, I can send to you a set of DVD's from our last one  day seminar with a number of presenters...all most all were experienced  CFII ..6 hours of formal presentations plus a ground inspection walk  around.

  

 Our Wing in the past 4 years has flown over 10,000 hours with one  incident...a bird strike...we're pretty proud of our safety record.  The  wing fly's almost daily weather permitting, as many CAP flight cannot be flown  as IFR mission. 

  

 So the risks are certainly different than what many of the RV 10 pilots  will experience.  Still Opertional Risk Management should be well under  stood by all who venture into the sky's.  We'll all see a new program from  the FAA's FAAST teams on this area soon but it will have another  name.

  

 Patrick

  [quote][b]

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