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Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

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rexjan(at)bigpond.com
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

On 11/20/06,  ramrod25 <r_wren(at)wfec.com (r_wren(at)wfec.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 I have decided  I definitaly want a tri-cycle gear stol airplane.  My

 concern is  that the CH701 nosegear appears to be much more structurally

 solid than  the current Kitfox design.  However, I think the Kitfox is a

 better  looking/performing airplane.



 Is the current Kitfox design strong  enough to handle a large tire upfront

 or will structural modifications  be required.



 Your thoughts,



 Regards,

  Rodney Wren


	


 Hi ! Rodney,

                        you say you definitely want nose gear but you don't say why unless I missed it  somewhere else. When I bought my Kitfox MKIV tail dragger I had trained in a  Jabiru tri-cycle and most were telling me I should think the decision carefully.  I guess some were stronger about it too. In fact I think no one fully supported  my decision to go tail dragger. They all said it was much harder !

   I just wonder if this is something like what  is making up your mind to go nose gear. If so now in hind sight I would say  "Don't let it worry you." Sure one can handle a tri-cycle just fine and jump  into a tail dragger and get in all sorts of tangles BUT with the RIGHT help  it's really not that hard to sort the problem. Unfortunately you will always get  different opinions on what exactly to do to fly a tail dragger and that only  adds to the confusion. My experience since learning tail dragger is that the  most common problem others are having is landing due to trying to do wheelers.  Yes I know that's the only way some do it but I have found when they try 3  pointing instead with a bit of advice that all of a sudden they get it down just  fine and their confidence increases dramatically. 

   If you study your Basic Aircraft Knowledge  you will see there is a lot of forces acting on a tail dragger more than  tri-cycle. In the learning stage these can cause wild swings etc both on landing  and take-off. However after you master it you probably won't even notice these.  It's like taking off in a trike. The Jabiru pulled to the left but after a while  I didn't even notice it. I was just correcting automatically. You will soon be  doing the same in a dragger.

   I had a very good CFI friend help me and  basically this is how we handled it.  On take-off I initially held the tail  down with full back stick to about 20 knots. This gives steering control. I then  would go to neutral stick as I then had enough airflow over the the tail and due  to the angle of attack with the tail down we would gently lift off just above  stall. This meant we avoided most of the forces pulling the plane off line and  so I quickly gained confidence. However as we lifted off just above stall we had  to be very carefull and for this reason we soon progressed to a different  aproach but I had gained confidence !

    Next I learnt to hold the tail down as  before to about 20 knots but then instead of neutral stick go to slightly  forward stick and lift the tail to achieve zero angle of attack. This way  there is far less drag from the wings while I pickup speed to about 40 knots or  so and then I gently pull back and up we go. Having gained confidence by the  first method you can now handle the pulling forces fairly  easilly.

     Now landings !  Right many  will argue here re wheelers versus 3 pointers but I'm going to stick my neck out  here for 3 pointers because I am hopeless at wheelers anyway and in the cases  where others have had trouble landing it's been because they are trying to do  wheelers. OK I know when you can do them there is nothing to it but in the  meantime I'm dead certain it's easier to 3 point my Kitfox at least. Really in  my plane and other Kitfox's I know off all there is to it is "Get the stick  hard back into the seat cushion without flaring high and before touch down. It  won't bounce !  Not that it really is bouncing anyway, it's flying again  due to angle of attack and being above stall.

   Now there is another point. You need to get  good at steering with your feet. Just practice. In any case trying to steer a  castoring nose wheel with brakes is surely harder at any sort of  speed.

   So what I'm saying is don't pass the dragger  because it appears to be a hard skill to master. It's not ! Also if you want  stol that suggests you want to land in the rough somtimes. Well I'd far sooner  be in a dragger thanks very much. You ask if structural mods are needed for a  large tyre up front. Well I would imagine so but don't really know.   however I do know I'd be far happier in the rough not pushing a nose wheel  along in front. One can only hold it up for so long.

   Yes I agree with you a Kitfox is a special  little plane compared to others. Even if I was in a position to change  planes I would not stray far if at all from what I've got. I would suggest to  you that if you go tail dragger Kitfox you really will be very glad on both the  Kitfox and dragger decisions after only a short learning curve and then you will  be having a lot of fun like the rest of us. Go for it and enjoy. That's what it  is all about !

               Rex.

   

   [quote][b]

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wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

SS did  offer a larger front tire. It was a late upgrade that required the fork to be  changed out. There was also an update to the front strut. Might check with the  new owners.

  

 Rick

 [quote]   

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

Rex , very well put .

  

 Now what critique can you give me  here?    http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/

  

 One wheelers, two wheelers or  3  pointers......... why are do taildragers get a bad rap ? 

 Same reason as 2 strokes do--  the pilot that  is operating it perhaps ?    

  

 Yes there are some that are not co-ordinated but  you only have to be able to  use rudders and stick as you do in any plane  on take off or landing.   Always know where you wind it and your nose  pointed and always being steered. 

  

 Our daily temps near freezing now and performance  is getting better.  100 foot take offs the normal ? 

  

  

  

  

 Dave 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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colind

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

Hi guys,



I can't resist this one, especially after Rex's well put words. Going back

(again) to my gliding days, ONE wheel and a belly hook add up to some

pretty strange (and powerfull) forces on take-off, with landings also an

experience. Ground loops are always a potential, but good instruction,

practice, and attention to flying skills, add up to really enjoyable

flying. I've never ground-looped in either glider or Skyfox (variant of

the Kitfox), but have felt a couple developing and corrected.



Rodney, I wouldn't walk away from a taildragger just because it takes a

bit more time and attention to master its peculiarities. The Kitfox is a

great plane.



Regards



Colin Durey

Sydney - Australia



dave said:

[quote] Rex , very well put .



 Now what critique can you give me here?    http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/



 One wheelers, two wheelers or  3 pointers......... why are do taildragers

 get a bad rap ?

 Same reason as 2 strokes do--  the pilot that is operating it perhaps ?



 Yes there are some that are not co-ordinated but you only have to be able

 to  use rudders and stick as you do in any plane on take off or landing.

 Always know where you wind it and your nose pointed and always being

 steered.



 Our daily temps near freezing now and performance is getting better.  100

 foot take offs the normal ?





 Dave

   ---

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

I echo exactly what Rex has said. I learned to fly....or should I say I 

spent about 40 hours being trained to have lazy feet, in a 172, and was 

doing ok, then I finished building my Kitfox, had it test flown for me, 

then began receiving instruction in it. It is a taildragger, Model IV. 

I had not soloed the 172 yet, due to my hours being spread out over too 

many months. After a few more hours of training in my Kitfox, I was 

ok'd for solo, and got that first flight alone in the cockpit out of 

the way. Since then, I have received my Sport Pilot ticket, and now 

have over 125 solo hours, including over 435 landings, all 3-pointers 

except for a couple of  wheelers, which were inadvertent, and all since 

June of this year. I got my Sport Pilot ticket 5 days before I turned 

70 years of age...if this old fart can do it, so can you!

Lynn

p.s. With a taildragger, you don't have to worry which of the nose 

gears are the strongest.

On Wednesday, November 22, 2006, at 01:51  PM, Rex Shaw wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 11/20/06, ramrod25 <r_wren(at)wfec.com> wrote:

 >

 >

 > I have decided I definitaly want a tri-cycle gear stol airplane.  My

 > concern is that the CH701 nosegear appears to be much more 

 structurally

 > solid than the current Kitfox design.  However, I think the Kitfox 

 is a

 > better looking/performing airplane.

 >

 > Is the current Kitfox design strong enough to handle a large tire 

 upfront

 > or will structural modifications be required.

 >

 > Your thoughts,

 >

 > Regards,

 > Rodney Wren

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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

ramrod25

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Fort Towson, Okla

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

Oh - you guys are really putting it on me here!!!  LOL - 



Rex - thanks for a really detailed explaination of how you learned to fly a taildragger.  I'm going to read that several more times.  



I remember my dad telling me that you fly a taildragger from the time you untie the wings, until you get back on the ground and tie it down again.  Course, he was a WWII fighter pilot (P-51's - P-47, P-40) and he had about 6000 hrs in a T-6.  He was a heck of a pilot.



I watched all the video's that Dave provided a link to.  Very interesting.



You guys have me at a disadvantage since I'm not a taildragger pilot, but here are some of my thoughts.



Rex - can you do a three-pointer in a 20 mph crosswind??  I'll bet your pretty darn busy in the cockpit, and then even after you land, with the wing at a positive angle of attack - it still wants to fly.   I would imagine that landing on a paved runway would be even more unforgiving than grass.  



Somewhere I read a book by one of the original Flying Tigers, and he talked about never trying to three-point any taildragger in a heavy crosswind.  His point was that at such a low speed, there was not enough control authority to keep from being blown across the runway.  



You guys have at least convinced me enough to try to find a taildragger Kitfox and beg a ride in one; but at this time I just don't see the advantage.  Given a properly designed nosegear, with a large, soft tire, and the low landing speeds that a Kitfox can perform at, which one would you rather land in, in a gusty crosswind.  A taildragger or a tri-gear?



It all boils down to a function of the level of skill you have in flying the airplane.  If I had a 1000 hrs in a taildragger - I'd be just as comfortable as ya'll are  - see now there is the answer to problem!!!  If I tell my wife that I need to get the airplane now, before I get the house built so I can build a lot of hours in a taildragger - you think that would work????

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Rodney Wren

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

I was like you.  With over 2500 hours on tri gear I was convinced I wanted to buy a tri gear plane.  I went to look at a taildragger Speedster for sale because it was close by.  During the demo flight, the seller (a CFI) let me do a few take-offs and landings from the left seat.  I was hooked.  Not because it was easy.  On the contrary, it was like learning to fly again.  It was a challenge to make my arms and legs work at putting the plane where it needed to be..this ain't no C-152.  I bought it!



After my 10-hours dual I really felt like I was ready to fly her and not scrape the wingtip.



Now after 30 hours and about 60 landings I can honestly say that I have become a better pilot than I would have ever been by sticking with the nose wheel.  I wouldn't say I was comfortable yet, but I am confident that I could make her go where I want and put her down where I want without her jumping away from me.  I just have to fly the plane and not get complacent.    



I may fly a nose wheel again, but somebody would have to pay me.  This taildragger thing is too much fun and satisfying.

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Dave
Piper PA-22/20

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

List:  

   

            One of the reasons I bought my Kitfox is that it is a tail dragger, and I wanted the experience of learning to use such an aircraft.  It was, after all, the first configuration that became commonplace.  My previous experience was limited to trikes, and I did even teach in them part time for a while in the late 70's.  I felt that I had gained a fair amount of proficiency in those days, but the tail dragger was not yet in my list of accomplishments till recently.   I am still learning to become an expert, and that is my goal.  I have made some mistakes, and have caused minor damage to my landing gear, but am still enthusiastic about learning to master my little plane.  Our Kitfoxes are challenging due to being so responsive even at low speeds, but then the rewards for becoming proficient are greater too.    

            So why should anyone want such an airplane?  Have you ever seen someone do the porpoise maneuver in a nose dragger?  It is not a pretty sight, to be sure, cause when the nose wheel is forced down and the plane bounces back, the angle of attack then becomes positive, and the plane goes back up, and if the propeller was fortunate enough to not have contacted the runway on the first one, and the power is added soon enough, then a go around can be established.  But when done at its worst, this boing boing maneuver becomes exaggerated, and well, it usually then results in a prop strike, and sometimes even a total hull loss.    

            No matter which configuration, there is a possible hazard when the thing transitions from ground to air, and back.  Good instruction and plenty of practice is the cure.  Asphalt runways are less forgiving than grass, but if you make sure that you have adjusted your wheel alignment correctly, and use as large a tail wheel as is practical for your bird, this will go a long way toward taming it.  Many of the tail draggers found on most fields have the main wheels set with toe in, which causes them to be far more difficult to operate; especially on rough asphalt.  They should be neutral to toed out one to one & 1/2 degrees.  The camber should also be properly adjusted, but is less critical.  This can go a long way toward making the airplane fun and not treacherous.   

             Alignment of the landing gear, and tail wheel angle/caster settings and diameter selection are often given short shrift by owner/pilots, after all, it is an AIRplane, and true, these things don’t matter a bit when it is flying, but take the time to do it, and you will be pleased with the results during that oh so critical transition phase from being a somewhat clumsy ground thing to flight and back.      

   

Duane Rueb, N24ZM  

   

[b]--

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger ?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Rex - can you do a three-pointer in a 20 mph crosswind??


	


Rodney,



A couple of years ago a flight of six - five Kitfoxes- all Model IVs and a 

Rans S-6 landed at Jackpot, Nevada on the way home from a four day Idaho 

back country sojourne.  It was late in the afternoon with developing weather 

and we wanted to get on the ground.



During the landing it was estimated that the Xwind was 8 mph at 90° left. 

On the ground it was estlimated that it was closer to 25 mph as you couldn't 

release the brakes and exit the airplanes without someone holding the wings. 

I don't consider myself an expert pilot, but managed it OK.  I think the 

estimate of 8 given by the lead airplane pilot,  helped me the most.  I 

believe to this day that if he had said 25 at 90, I would have frozen at the 

controls and done the landing by the numbers rather than by just flying the 

airplane. The Rans was a nose wheel version of the S-6 and all the IVs were, 

of course, taildraggers.  As you suggested, I was pretty busy flying the 

landing and can't state for sure what landing configuration the other IVs 

were in, but I did touch down in the three point and I have never ever seen 

any of the guys I fly with do a wheel landing.



There are some tricks that help with the transition.  If you do find that 

you are flying with a tailwheel.  There is lots of help available.



Again, it seems you are doing your homework fine and will make the right 

decision.



Lowell

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