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Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

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BRogers(at)fdic.gov
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang II kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his published article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf  

   

      The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty.  I am using two independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power sources for each light.  The system is wired per the instructions.  Everything works as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No. 6, below.    

   

      1.    Both switches down - everything is off  

      2.    Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights are on  

      3.    Either switch up – the light for that switch is on  

      4.    Both switches in the middle - power goes through the WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second intervals.  

      5.    Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light is on but no flash.  

      6.    Landing light switch (only) in the middle - FLASHER GOES CRAZY!  

   

      In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing light flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher.  The flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per second) between on and off.   

   

      I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs through the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change connections from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches, then the buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the middle.  

   

      I do not understand why one light merely turns on when a single switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the other switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes nuts.  

   

      Does anyone have an explanation for this strange behavior?  Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but since I do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot figure it out.  I guess the simple answer is, “Don’t put a single switch in the middle (flasher position).”  But I would still like to know why this is happening and whether there is any way to prevent it.  I do not want to inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this vibration mode and leaving it there.  

      [quote][b]

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

Bob;

  

 Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states  "The SSF-1 flasher will not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a  lamp. Hence the requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag  priority operation"  By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both  in the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher does  not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one case, berserk in  the other)

  

 Bob McC

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

BRogers(at)fdic.gov
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is placed in the center position – that is what I expected.  My problem is that the flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion.  Mostly, I would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the flasher that causes the odd behavior.    

   

Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should not happen and that the flasher is defective.  If so, I would like to know, so that I can get a good one.  

   

If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function, please explain it.  

   

Thanks,  

   

Bob  

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum

 Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:54 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz  

  

     

[b]Bob;[/b]  

    

   

    

[b]Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1 flasher will not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp. Hence the requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag priority operation"  By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both in the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher does not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one case, berserk in the other)[/b]  

    

   

    

[b]Bob McC[/b]  

  [quote]    

---

JOHN TIPTON

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the  US  as we don't use such a thing (I'm here in England by the  way)

  

 Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the  'Wig-Wag' alternates each landing light,  only one landing light is on at  any one time - yes: surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the  effect, especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a  continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.

  

 John (co-building RV9a) England

 [quote]   ---

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

The benefit of wig-wags, as well as alternating strobes, is  that they produce a sense of movement which is more readily detected by the eye  than a fixed position light, whether steady or flashing.

  

 Regards,

Greg Young

  



 [quote]         From:    owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN    TIPTON

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:53 AM

To:    aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List:    Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

   

   I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in    the US  as we don't use such a thing (I'm here in England by the    way)

    

   Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the    'Wig-Wag' alternates each landing light,  only one landing light is on at    any one time - yes: surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice,    the effect, especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where)    that a continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing    light.

    

   John (co-building RV9a) England

    	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

jmtipton(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the  US  as we don't use such a thing (I'm here in England by the  way)

  

 Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the  'Wig-Wag' alternates each landing light,  only one landing light is on at  any one time - yes: surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the  effect, especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a  continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.

  

 John (co-building RV9a) England



 [quote]   ---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

From: 

Sent:  Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:39 AM

To:  'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List:  Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

 I would have to disagree John..At least from my own  anecdotal observations. Slow flashing landing lights get my attention much more  readily than a steady light.

 The wig-wigs are used in addition to the strobes, strobes  in fact are not a requirement as far as I know but everyone fits them...At least  that used to be true for VFR, might be different for IFR  ops?

 The other benefit of the Wig-wag is if you use the wingtip  landing lights it is only half the heating effect on the plastic lens of the  sheared wingtip. Rumour has it that a 75W  bulb will melt the lens if left on for long periods.

 I flew the Rv7a for the first time at night (albeit on a  lighted runway) yesterday and the 75W wig wags light the runway pretty well...If  I was at minimums on IFR at night I would probably switch them both  on.

 Wig wags also use half power as well.

 Frank...Ex-pat Brit living in  Oregon.

   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN  TIPTON

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:53 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List:  Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

 I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the  US  as we don't use such a thing (I'm here in England by the  way)

 Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the  'Wig-Wag' alternates each landing light,  only one landing light is on at  any one time - yes: surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the  effect, especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a  continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.

 John (co-building RV9a) England

 [quote]   ---

melvinke(at)coho.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

With respect to the visibility aspects of steady vs flashing lights, it

should be noted that the Lockheed Hudson in British Maritime use during WW11

used a steady bright light on each leading edge to render the aircraft less

starkly visible against a bright sky when attacking U-Boats from up-sun.

Kenneth Melvin

P51 N51KX

--

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

Bob;

  

 When the notes say "won't operate" they don't  necessarily mean sit there dormant doing nothing. They mean won't give the  desired or expected result. This is exactly what is happening in your case. I  don't know positively for sure, but expect that this flasher's output is through  a double throw relay with both the normally open and normally closed contacts  also wired to a time delay on and time delay off circuit operating the coil. The  results you are getting are possibly explained by the one light being connected  to the NC contact therefore turning the lamp "on". Connecting the other  lamp to the NO output which is the "turn on timer" circuit, also momentarily  closes the relay turning on the lamp, but instantaneously it turns off again  because there is no load on the other output, thus putting the timer into a  "buzzer" mode where the action of turning on the relay turns it  off.  With both loads connected the on-off action of the timer  operates correctly causing the relay contacts to rhythmically transfer, making  the two outputs alternately turn on for roughly equal amounts of time. (poor  explanation, I know, but hopefully you get the idea) The "buzzer" action is so  fast that the lamp only appears to glow, or flicker, because the "on" time is so  short.

  

 Bob McC 

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

At 10:37 AM 11/21/2006 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



With respect to the visibility aspects of steady vs flashing lights, it

should be noted that the Lockheed Hudson in British Maritime use during WW11

used a steady bright light on each leading edge to render the aircraft less

starkly visible against a bright sky when attacking U-Boats from up-sun.

Kenneth Melvin


	


   But those lights were adjustable with the notion of having

   them closely emulate the color temperature of the background

   sky. If the backdrop were clouds, the light would have the opposite

   effect and make the aircraft stand out like a sore thumb.



   When Lopresti first offered the hi-intensity automotive lamps

   for aircraft, we installed on in our flight test Bonanza. On a

   clear day, the tower could not see the new light against the

   sunlit clear sky. Strobes are also hard to see against a sunlit

   cloudless sky. Incandescent lamps have much redder color

   and stand out nicely against a daytime sky.



[quote]P51 N51KX

--

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

At 10:54 PM 11/21/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob;



When the notes say "won't operate" they don't necessarily mean sit there 

dormant doing nothing. They mean won't give the desired or expected 

result. This is exactly what is happening in your case. I don't know 

positively for sure, but expect that this flasher's output is through a 

double throw relay with both the normally open and normally closed 

contacts also wired to a time delay on and time delay off circuit 

operating the coil. The results you are getting are possibly explained by 

the one light being connected to the NC contact therefore turning the lamp 

"on". Connecting the other lamp to the NO output which is the "turn on 

timer" circuit, also momentarily closes the relay turning on the lamp, but 

instantaneously it turns off again because there is no load on the other 

output, thus putting the timer into a "buzzer" mode where the action of 

turning on the relay turns it off.  With both loads connected the on-off 

action of the timer operates correctly causing the relay contacts to 

rhythmically transfer, making the two outputs alternately turn on for 

roughly equal amounts of time. (poor explanation, I know, but hopefully 

you get the idea) The "buzzer" action is so fast that the lamp only 

appears to glow, or flicker, because the "on" time is so short.


	


   Your perceptions and analysis are correct. Well done.

   If I had designed the flasher, it would have been a 4-wire

   device and its operation would have been independent of

   which or how many load lamps were attached. This is an

   automotive flasher intended to replace the classic 3-wire,

   thermal devices used on vehicles for a very long time.

   When you don't have the 4th lead for a solid ground, the

   circuit depends on seeing a ground in through the OFF

   side lamp.



   Bob . . .

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

At 11:23 AM 11/21/2006 -0600, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The benefit of wig-wags, as well as alternating strobes, is that they 

produce a sense of movement which is more readily detected by the eye than 

a fixed position light, whether steady or flashing.



Regards,

Greg Young


	


   Right on!



   Bob . . .



      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

The 3 lead device provides immediate audio notification of a burned out 

light bulb when installed in a reasonably quiet vehicle.  Some days I 

notice an amazing percentage of vehicles with one (or often several) 

dead bulbs and that is a definate contributor to accidents!

Ken



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>



 At 10:54 PM 11/21/2006 -0500, you wrote:



> Bob;

>

> When the notes say "won't operate" they don't necessarily mean sit 

> there dormant doing nothing. They mean won't give the desired or 

> expected result. This is exactly what is happening in your case. I 

> don't know positively for sure, but expect that this flasher's output 

> is through a double throw relay with both the normally open and 

> normally closed contacts also wired to a time delay on and time delay 

> off circuit operating the coil. The results you are getting are 

> possibly explained by the one light being connected to the NC contact 

> therefore turning the lamp "on". Connecting the other lamp to the NO 

> output which is the "turn on timer" circuit, also momentarily closes 

> the relay turning on the lamp, but instantaneously it turns off again 

> because there is no load on the other output, thus putting the timer 

> into a "buzzer" mode where the action of turning on the relay turns 

> it off.  With both loads connected the on-off action of the timer 

> operates correctly causing the relay contacts to rhythmically 

> transfer, making the two outputs alternately turn on for roughly 

> equal amounts of time. (poor explanation, I know, but hopefully you 

> get the idea) The "buzzer" action is so fast that the lamp only 

> appears to glow, or flicker, because the "on" time is so short.

   Your perceptions and analysis are correct. Well done.

   If I had designed the flasher, it would have been a 4-wire

   device and its operation would have been independent of

   which or how many load lamps were attached. This is an

   automotive flasher intended to replace the classic 3-wire,

   thermal devices used on vehicles for a very long time.

   When you don't have the 4th lead for a solid ground, the

   circuit depends on seeing a ground in through the OFF

   side lamp.



   Bob . . .

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz

At 08:18 AM 11/22/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



The 3 lead device provides immediate audio notification of a burned out 

light bulb when installed in a reasonably quiet vehicle.  Some days I 

notice an amazing percentage of vehicles with one (or often several) dead 

bulbs and that is a definate contributor to accidents!

Ken


	


    Very good! Only a dedicated OBAMer could truly make a silk

    purse from a sows ear! I hadn't thought of that. I'll

    add a note to that effect in the Wig-Wag wiring diagrams.



    Thanks!



    Bob . . .

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