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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...you say you definitely want nose gear but you don't say why 

unless I missed it somewhere else.


	


The topic of tail dragger versus nose wheel has been beaten to death 

quite a few times on the list and, obviously, there is no "right" 

answer for everyone--each has its pros and cons.  What I wonder is, 

why do the rest of us care what someone else wants to do?  The guy 

told us what he wants, end of story!



Mike G.

N728KF

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

"The guy told us what he wants, end of story!"



Yeah,  but he is wrong!  (No offense meant Rod!)      

        And we are honor bound to correct him.   



Randy



PS.  I agree with Dave.

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

ramrod25

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Fort Towson, Okla

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Michael - I'm sure you are right - there is no one answer about taildragger or nosegear.  It's a lot like the high wing / low wing issue.



Have you ever heard the saying that the real test of finding an intelligent person is when you find someone that agrees with you?  



I do appreciate all points of view and am willing to listen to the pros and cons of the issue.  I always find that there are some issues that I may not have considered which are worth examining.  I've received lots of nice emails from folks advising me to keep an open mind.  



I won't say I'm convinced, but perhaps a crack has developed to the extent that I am going to find someone close with a taildragger and have a good look at it.  Perhaps I even might get a flight in one.

_________________
Regards,
Rodney Wren

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Randy,

    I haven't seen a post lately that hit my funny side but yours cracked me 

up.  We are honor bound.  Ha....



Don Smythe

Do Not Archive

---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Randy sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Yeah,  but he is wrong!  (No offense meant Rod!)    


	


OK, Randy, I didn't want to have to do this...  



My second 'fox is going to have tricycle gear just like my previous 

one, because:



   I can see where I'm going during taxi, takeoff and

   landing.



   My fuel gauges read accurately during my pre-flight.



   I get quicker acceleration on takeoff due to lower

   induced drag from the wing.



   I can achieve a higher pitch angle when rotating

   for takeoff and when touching down.



   I can stomp on the brakes as hard as I want without

   concern for a prop strike.



   The wing is at a neutral angle of attack for taxi

   during high winds.



   The wing generates less lift when the plane is

   tied down in high winds.



   The plane sits level on the ground which is more

   comfortable for passengers during loading and taxi.



   The main gear wheel pants are further aft so they are

   not in the way when you enter and exit the plane.



   It's easier to check the oil and wash the windshield.



   Water doesn't collect in the pitot tube.



   It's easier to walk or camp under the wing.



I didn't build it to be unstable in the air, why would I want it to 

be unstable on the ground?  I have a tailwheel endorsement that I 

earned in an Aeronca Chief, so I don't have anything to prove to 

anyone.  



There, I've done my duty.  



Mike G.

N728KF

cirrus10(at)qwest.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Touche!  Sorry, don't have that squigley thing that goes over the e on my 

keyboard.



Ed---

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

A duty well served and well said Mike. Some just don't get it. 

  Dan B

  Building KF-IV, 912s, Tri-gear



Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs 



Randy sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Yeah, but he is wrong! (No offense meant Rod!) 


	


OK, Randy, I didn't want to have to do this... 



My second 'fox is going to have tricycle gear just like my previous 

one, because:



I can see where I'm going during taxi, takeoff and

landing.



My fuel gauges read accurately during my pre-flight.



I get quicker acceleration on takeoff due to lower

induced drag from the wing.



I can achieve a higher pitch angle when rotating

for takeoff and when touching down.



I can stomp on the brakes as hard as I want [quote][b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

This is an interesting subject that is almost like talking about ones 

favorite football team (it's rivalry week).  The subject comes up regularly 

and was the original reason for the survey that resulted in the List 

Database.  Mike gave lots of reasons for his preference, but the importance 

of each is a matter of personal opinion.  One thing I sense is that many in 

the Desert Fox group have opted for tricycle gear airplanes.  It makes me 

wonder what geographic / climate factors came into this preference or if it 

is more subjective than that.



In our data base there are 124 Kitfoxes listed.  96 are tailwheel, 11 are 

tricycle and 7 are on floats.  The ratio would change a bit as most of the 

Desert Fox Squadron are not in the database.



I do know of at least one Kitfox that was flipped onto it's back after 

catching a nosewheel.  I have witnessed a nosewheel collapse on landing 

damaging at least the nosewheel strut and the prop and likely the engine 

after the inevitable prop strike - not a Kitfox.  Neither of these 

"annoyances" would ever happen in a tailwheel Kitfox unless a main was 

seriously trapped in a major hole.



Personally, I like the looks of the tailwheel airplane a lot better - can't 

get more subjective than that, and most of Mike's reasons for the nosewheel 

are pretty much preferences, except for the visibility issue which is real. 

There are several that can be accommodated for much more easily than a nose 

wheel converion - the fuel gauge reading for example - I have two scales 

below 6 gallons, above that I find the readings close enough to not make any 

difference.  And the wheel pants? I don't have them and stand on the wheels 

to check the oil and wash the windshield and instruct passengers to do the 

same when entering the airplane as I do.  There are a couple I would argue 

with, but then that would be my opinion against his.



Speaking of entering and exiting an airplane.  Any Kitfox is a piece of cake 

compared to the Lancair IV I am helping with and this one has the 

retractable step.



Tail wheel? That's all I have ever known except about 8 hours and one long 

X-country in a C-182 - dose that count as a nosewheel endorsement?  



Lowell

---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Geeze Michael, it will take me a long time to prepare a response to that.

In fact I might not even get around to it.



But just so you don't get the last word, I will say that for me, it comes

down to a three letter word.  



How are you doing?  When are you getting back in the air?



Randy



.           



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Im steppin in this lol .  Its getting deep .  .Dont  think a tri gear can 

even fly outta this . HEHEH



You must be short to not see outta the TD KITFOX visibility if fine . TAXI 

TAKEOFF AND LANDING.



TD fuel gauges read right on the money FILL THE TANK BEFORE YOU FLY . Have 

you read NTSB records and see how many crashes are due to ignorant pilots 

trusting there fuel gauges and not looking in and sticking tanks and topping 

off before flight .



Full throttle brakes locked bring tail up and fly away , I have less drag 

than a TRI GEAR FOX .



Nope not in anyway can you achieve a higher angle of attack Ill challenge ya 

on this one and fly side by side , and unless you drag your tail on landing 

aint no way your gonna get the pitch angle higher.



Have you ever tipped a trike over HMMM if not keep stompin on them there 

brakes buddy and fly that prop right into the ground and ding a wing tip . 

By the way I wouldnt stomp on my brakes when landing just aplly softly and 

stop in 150 feet or less. I land in fresh turned soil in wheat fields all 

the time and never had a problem .



I have taxied mine in 40 MPH winds and it was not fun but i did it and kept 

her from flying off.



OK I agree with ya on this one but heck . Ill still tie mine side by side 

with a Tri gear in high wind and not worry about it .



Loading is just about the same its still cramped getting in and out and taxi 

is just fine unless your a shrimp and cant see over the dash or reach the 

pedals .



If your gonna fly a plane to have fun in why would anyone want wheel pants 

that clog up with mud and debris and you might damage if you hit a pot hole

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

I'm short (5' 6" on a good day) and I can see out of my taildragger 

Model IV just fine. All I had to do was install a Skyfox cowl, lower 

the instrument panel and glare shield/dash cover, and use a seat 

cushion. I would probably have followed the crowd and used a round 

cowl, but didn't get one when I bought mine, so went with the Skyfox 

cowl when I bought my non-crowd-following Jabiru engine.

My wing root fuel gauges each read a half-gallon less than is actually 

in them when sitting on its tail...I call this a safety margin.



Lynn

Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200



On Thursday, November 23, 2006, at 09:07  PM, john perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 You must be short to not see outta the TD KITFOX visibility if fine . 

 TAXI TAKEOFF AND LANDING.



 TD fuel gauges read right on the money FILL THE TANK BEFORE YOU FLY . 

 Have you read NTSB records and see how many crashes are due to 

 ignorant pilots trusting there fuel gauges and not looking in and 

 sticking tanks and topping off before flight .

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Ok guys,



Since this in on- topic I guess no one will care right ?



And I will add on fueling , When I am on land on Amphibs, I get less fuel in 

my wingtanks  than I do when I am on water and when I on wheels ( 

taildragger of course) .   I dip my tanks with a graduated stick plus I can 

see it visually.



One other point we all know is that taildragger configuration over all can 

handle rougher ground so in the case of a engine out or prop failure  you 

can land in more hostile territory successfully possibly in a taildragger 

that's in a nose gear aircraft.



I guess maybe  John Mc Bean could comment on what sales have been like 

overall for both gear configurations on the models that could accommodate 

either gear.



I do not find a Kitfox a hard to handle aircraft at all. I have flown more 

than several thousand hours in many singles and twins in ski, land and float 

equipped.  I have also seen ground loops in taildragger and tri gear as well 

as a hell of a lot more nose gears ripped off and bent.



My preference for a Kitfox would be a Taildragger for all round versatility 

and a C-421  well  Nose gear fine   



Oh  and for crosswinds?  Why not just land into wind across the runway? 

you only need a hundred feet  or less for a 25 mph wind  

Dave

---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
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Highest rated on youtube

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Got news for you, 5'6" ain't short.  I'm 5'2' (before my back operation) and 

I have the round cowl and standard height panel/glare shield and I can still 

see just fine.



Don Smythe

Do Not Archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm short (5' 6" on a good day) and I can see out of my taildragger Model 

 IV just fine. All I had to do was install a Skyfox

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

OOOPS sorry i started the short thing guys . Im only 5' 7" and when taxingin 

or landing i look out the side have full glass doors .



Take care

John

---

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Was'nt gonna further this debate but.....   I've had the nosewheel fall of 

the Avid while warming the motor. Later found most guys double the tube to 

the fork and weld the heck out of it. Found the taildraggers envelope for 

punishment to be a little smaller than expected on my Kitfox.  Ya I was 

screwin around.  Doesn't matter what you fly just grease your landings even 

when test flying.  I do feel a little silly when I taxi the tricycle Avid, 

and cool in the TD Kitfox.     Ron NB Ore

   P.S. Randy it's a four letter word: COOL    do not archive

[quote]From: "Randy  Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Re: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:30:06 -0700




<rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com>



Geeze Michael, it will take me a long time to prepare a response to that.

In fact I might not even get around to it.



But just so you don't get the last word, I will say that for me, it comes

down to a three letter word.



How are you doing?  When are you getting back in the air?



Randy



.



--

barry(at)pgtc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

I hate to get into this but I feel I have to say something about this 

subject.  It is a little like the argument between high wing and low wing.



My friend was approaching the airport in his Cherokee when a duck flew into 

the wing.  He landed safely but had a terrible dent in his wing and was 

studying it when I walked over and asked what happened.  He said a duck hit 

his wing and he didn't know how he was going to fix it.  I told him that if 

he had been flying a Cessna the duck would have missed him.



I fly high a high wing and have a tailwheel.  I have never had a duck hit my 

wing and have not noticed any of the problems Michael mentions.



Barry West

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

You mean I'm TALL?...look out Kobe, I'm out for your job!

Lynn

do not archive

On Thursday, November 23, 2006, at 09:58  PM, Don Smythe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Got news for you, 5'6" ain't short.  I'm 5'2' (before my back 

 operation) and I have the round cowl and standard height panel/glare 

 shield and I can still see just fine.

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

> I'm short (5' 6" on a good day) and I can see out of my taildragger 

> Model IV just fine. All I had to do was install a Skyfox

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

All,



I've always suggested to anyone new to Avids and Kitfoxes (and not an 

experienced tailwheel pilot) that if possible they start out with the 

airplane as a tri-gear set up (assuming they are looking at models that are 

convertible).  That way they can enjoy their new airplane without the added 

concern of the whole taildragger thing.  But then after flying it long 

enough to think they know everything there is to know about it (? hours) 

convert it over to a taildragger configuration, and be ready to learn a 

whole new airplane!  But not in a scarey way, as for the most part the new 

challenge will be mostly fun.  Remember, they already know the rest of the 

airplane and have that confidence.



And not only will learning to fly a taildragger supply them with increased 

piloting skills, but they will see the benefit of increased utility by being 

able to go places one can't go (or "shouldn't go) with a nosewheel airplane.



This ability to have either/or is one of the great benefits of our wonderful 

airplanes.  I've had the opportunity to enjoy these airplanes both as 

nosewheel and tailwheel airplanes, and even though I prefer them with 

tailwheels, their utility is only marginally sacrificed by adding a 

nosewheel.  In defense of those concerned about the wild stories they may 

have heard about Kitfoxes and their tailwheel handling;  don't let that 

bother you.  They are pussycats as tailwheel airplanes go.  But like any 

tailwheel airplane, it will still be more challenging to operate than a tri 

gear.  Especially in crosswinds.  But once you learn the Fox with a 

tailwheel, I doubt you will ever want to go back to the trigear.



Just my two cents worth...



Paul Seehafer

Central Wisconsin

Model IV-1200 amphib with two nosewheels (chuckle)

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Lsat I heard you had  one Nose wheel



< Snicker   >     



Dave



<<Paul Seehafer

Central Wisconsin

Model IV-1200 amphib with two nosewheels (chuckle)

---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

The holy wars have begun again!  Shoot the guy that raised the subject!  



John sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  You must be short to not see outta the TD KITFOX visibility if fine 

. TAXI TAKEOFF AND LANDING.


	


Thanks for asking about my stature, but actually I'm 6' 1" and I 

don't see "fine" over the nose of round cowled 'foxes.  Maybe it 

depends upon one's definition of "fine".    S-turns are mandatory 

for me.



 	  Quote: 	
		  TD fuel gauges read right on the money...


	


Unless you have a custom scale on yours like Lowell does, the gauges 

do NOT read accurately unless they are in a level attitude.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...how many crashes are due to ignorant pilots trusting there fuel 

gauges and not looking in and sticking tanks and topping off before 

flight.


	


Sure, but when you look at the sight gauges you ARE looking at the 

fuel.  That's the advantage they have over mechanical or electrical 

gauges.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Full throttle brakes locked bring tail up and fly away , I have less 

drag than a TRI GEAR FOX


	


Hard to imagine since the elevator is providing a considerable 

lifting force to keep the tail off the ground.  Lift = drag.  Let's 

go measure.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...not in anyway can you achieve a higher angle of attack Ill 

challenge ya on this one and fly side by side


	


We've been through this on the list before, John.  Since the tri-gear 

mains are mounted further aft, you can raise the nose more before the 

tail hits the ground.  Challenge?  Bring it on!



 	  Quote: 	
		  Loading is just about the same its still cramped getting in and out


	


I've been in and out of dozens of tail wheel and nose wheel foxes and 

I disagree.  I find it easier to get into and (especially) out of a 

level seat in a level airplane.  You guys should try it with a bum 

knee some time.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...why would anyone want wheel pants that clog up with mud and debris...


	


Because I want to get the most distance out of every drop of fuel, 

and I do that by making my airplane as aerodynamically clean as 

possible.  Plus, I love the look of the wheel pants.



 	  Quote: 	
		  If its unstable on the ground either your doing something wrong or 

you just dont know how to control your plane...


	


By definition, having the main gear forward of the airplane's center 

of gravity makes it directionally unstable.  Push a shopping cart 

forward and it will go roughly straight.  Push one backwards and it 

will whip around to go forward--it's directionally unstable in the 

same way a tail dragger is.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...why would anyone want a big blob hangin  in the front of your 

plane under the nose that causes more drag...


	


I already told you why!  



Mike G.

N728KF

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