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Ever had this happen?

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cgod(at)cebridge.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Oh Wisdom of the List,  I call upon your  knowledge!

  

  

 Right wing shows 3 gallons thru the sight tube, but  the fuel filter is empty.  Does any one know why this could be?  Is  there gas baffled in one section of the tank that does not reach?  I am  unfamiliar with what the tank looks like since I am not the builder.    The fuel filters also seem to have a hard time filling up in flight and only  stay half full when flying.  I can watch the gas coming in but most times  it seems to be only a trickle.

  

 Any solutions or suggestions?

  

 Michael Stanard

    [quote][b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Michael,



I guess the first thing I would do is drain a bit of gas, fold the wing and 

pull the finger strainers in the wing tank.   If that checks out, I think I 

'd replace the fuel line from the wing tanks to the filter and to the header 

tank.



It sounds to me like a fuel restriction somewhere.  Are you using the Mil 

Spec 6000 fuel line.  It has in some instances swollen shut on some using 

MoGas.  Also there was one post many years ago of a guy that pinched off his 

oil hose, as I recall, with a misaligned hose clamp that had slipped off the 

barb.



What airplane are you flying?  I don't see you in the database.



Lowell



---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Michael,

     First, do every thing that  Lowell said.  If you have the MIL-6000 black rubber fuel line, replace it  before you do anything else.  If every thing works out to be good with no  obstructions, consider Vapor Lock.  I worked on my hanger mates riding lawn  mower recently.  His fuel tank will be at about 1/2 and the engine  goes dead.  The fuel filter is empty.  Take off the inlet line to the  filter and fuel starts to flow freely.  Reconnect to filter and the engine  will start and run the rest of the fuel.  Happens every time without  fail.  For some reason, his system is vapor locking and I haven't  had a chance to figure it out.

     Auto fuel is much more  likely to vapor lock than 100LL.  Look at any clear filter on your car or  lawnmower and it will always appear half full of fuel.  The other half  which looks like air is vapor.  You may have some strange vapor locking  like my hanger mates lawnmower.  I think his problem has  something to do with the large body fuel filter that's installed or it's  location to the fuel tank.  Like I said, do all Lowell said and then  consider a strange vapor locking problem.

  

 Don Smythe  

 [quote]   ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

I've seen this happen too, Don....the half-full clear filter thing, 

that is.  I expected to see this on my plane with a clear filter in the 

supply lines from each wing tank. But they are both very full and very 

clear. I'm sure it has something to do with the venting of the header 

tank up to the wing tank. This vent line on my plane is full of fuel, 

and will be as long as fuel is present in the tanks, and the shutoff 

valves in each supply line is open. I have just gone over 200 hours on 

my plane, and no problems yet...knocking on wood. : )



Lynn



On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 04:14  PM, Don Smythe wrote:



[quote] Michael,

     First, do every thing that Lowell said.  If you have the MIL-6000 

 black rubber fuel line, replace it before you do anything else.  If 

 every thing works out to be good with no obstructions, consider Vapor 

 Lock.  I worked on my hanger mates riding lawn mower recently.  His 

 fuel tank will be at about 1/2 and the engine goes dead.  The fuel 

 filter is empty.  Take off the inlet line to the filter and fuel 

 starts to flow freely.  Reconnect to filter and the engine will start 

 and run the rest of the fuel.  Happens every time without fail.  For 

 some reason, his system is vapor locking and I haven't had a chance to 

 figure it out.

     Auto fuel is much more likely to vapor lock than 100LL.  Look at 

 any clear filter on your car or lawnmower and it will always appear 

 half full of fuel.  The other half which looks like air is vapor.  You 

 may have some strange vapor locking like my hanger mates lawnmower.  I 

 think his problem has something to do with the large body fuel filter 

 that's installed or it's location to the fuel tank.  Like I said, do 

 all Lowell said and then consider a strange vapor locking problem.

  

 Don Smythe  



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Lynn,

    I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank.  They are 

mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor (appearing not quite 

full).  I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal between the main shutoff 

and the carbs.  Since that one is mounted horizontal, it always shows more 

vapor than the vertical ones.  I strongly believe this to be a case of vapor 

in auto gas.

    After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to vapor 

lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox system could do 

the same thing.  I feel it has something to do with the physical size of the 

filter and/or possible location in the line.  I don't think the vent on the 

header has anything to do with this type situation.  You can fly safely with 

the header vent shut off completely (Avids did/do).  As long as the filler 

caps are supplying air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the 

lines, fuel should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???



Don Smythe

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Don-

  I have almost exactly the same configuration as you, except that I 

can't see my horizontal 3rd filter. It is under my center 

console...maybe I should install a window to have a look at it 

occasionally. That one is after the main shutoff and the aux. electric 

pump, which I never/rarely ever use. It's a Facet, and it allows 

gravity flow through it...or perhaps more properly, allows the engine's 

mechanical pump to pull through it, although it does flow through via 

gravity. All 3 filters are 5/16" in my system.



Lynn

On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 05:11  PM, Don Smythe wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn,

    I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank.  They 

 are mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor (appearing 

 not quite full).  I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal between 

 the main shutoff and the carbs.  Since that one is mounted horizontal, 

 it always shows more vapor than the vertical ones.  I strongly believe 

 this to be a case of vapor in auto gas.

    After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to 

 vapor lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox 

 system could do the same thing.  I feel it has something to do with 

 the physical size of the filter and/or possible location in the line.  

 I don't think the vent on the header has anything to do with this type 

 situation.  You can fly safely with the header vent shut off 

 completely (Avids did/do).  As long as the filler caps are supplying 

 air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the lines, fuel 

 should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???



 Don Smythe

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Regarding these Purolator fuel filters, I seem to recall some time

back about a member who was having similar flow problems and also had

the same filters.  Upon dismantling the filters he found them to be

partially plugged with tiny fibers that he determined to have come

from the wing tanks and were inhibiting the fuel flow. They were

possibly fiberglass fibers, but that wasn't confirmed as I recall. 

He replaced the filters and no more problems.  This happened several

years ago.  Perhaps someone else can shed some light on it.  

Deke

Subject: Re: Ever had this happen?

Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:34:40 -0500



 	  Quote: 	
		  Don-

  I have almost exactly the same configuration as you, except that I 

can't see my horizontal 3rd filter. It is under my center 

console...maybe I should install a window to have a look at it 

occasionally. That one is after the main shutoff and the aux.

electric 

pump, which I never/rarely ever use. It's a Facet, and it allows 

gravity flow through it...or perhaps more properly, allows the

engine's 

mechanical pump to pull through it, although it does flow through via



gravity. All 3 filters are 5/16" in my system.



Lynn


	


[quote]On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 05:11  PM, Don Smythe wrote:



> 

>

> Lynn,

>    I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank. 

They 

> are mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor

(appearing 

> not quite full).  I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal

between 

> the main shutoff and the carbs.  Since that one is mounted

horizontal, 

> it always shows more vapor than the vertical ones.  I strongly

believe 

> this to be a case of vapor in auto gas.

>    After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to 

> vapor lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox 

> system could do the same thing.  I feel it has something to do with



> the physical size of the filter and/or possible location in the

line.  

> I don't think the vent on the header has anything to do with this

type 

> situation.  You can fly safely with the header vent shut off 

> completely (Avids did/do).  As long as the filler caps are

supplying 

> air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the lines,

fuel 

> should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???

>

> Don Smythe

> ---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Deke,

    I recall that report.  As I remember, the person who reported said they 

were fiberglass fragments that were invisible in the filters with fuel. 

Good reason to change filters "frequently" during the first few tanks of 

fuel.  I think this problem would have developed with just about any type 

filters.



Don Smythe

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

I recall reading that, Deke. I think that was about the time I got 

nervous and called Frank Miller and got the lowdown on flushing and 

Kreeming my tanks, which I did. I've used the Purolator filters in 

everything from a Ford tractor to a lawn mower to my airplane, and 

loved every one of them. In the case of the tiny fibers, they would 

have clogged any type of filter, I think, and just having Purolator 

filters wouldn't have caused the problem, I don't think. In effect, the 

Purolator filters act in a similar fashion to the finger strainers in 

our wings...they provide a large area of surface in which to trap 

contaminants, and in most cases, the contaminants can be seen...not so 

with the tiny fibers from that members' experience, it sounds.



Lynn

On Saturday, November 25, 2006, at 03:41  PM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 

 Regarding these Purolator fuel filters, I seem to recall some time

 back about a member who was having similar flow problems and also had

 the same filters.  Upon dismantling the filters he found them to be

 partially plugged with tiny fibers that he determined to have come

 from the wing tanks and were inhibiting the fuel flow. They were

 possibly fiberglass fibers, but that wasn't confirmed as I recall.

 He replaced the filters and no more problems.  This happened several

 years ago.  Perhaps someone else can shed some light on it.

 Deke

 Subject: Re: Ever had this happen?

 Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:34:40 -0500



> Don-

>  I have almost exactly the same configuration as you, except that I

> can't see my horizontal 3rd filter. It is under my center

> console...maybe I should install a window to have a look at it

> occasionally. That one is after the main shutoff and the aux.

> electric

> pump, which I never/rarely ever use. It's a Facet, and it allows

> gravity flow through it...or perhaps more properly, allows the

> engine's

> mechanical pump to pull through it, although it does flow through via

>

> gravity. All 3 filters are 5/16" in my system.

>

> Lynn



> On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 05:11  PM, Don Smythe wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Lynn,

>>    I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank.

> They

>> are mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor

> (appearing

>> not quite full).  I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal

> between

>> the main shutoff and the carbs.  Since that one is mounted

> horizontal,

>> it always shows more vapor than the vertical ones.  I strongly

> believe

>> this to be a case of vapor in auto gas.

>>    After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to

>> vapor lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox

>> system could do the same thing.  I feel it has something to do with

>

>> the physical size of the filter and/or possible location in the

> line.

>> I don't think the vent on the header has anything to do with this

> type

>> situation.  You can fly safely with the header vent shut off

>> completely (Avids did/do).  As long as the filler caps are

> supplying

>> air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the lines,

> fuel

>> should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???

>>

>> Don Smythe

>> ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Hi Michael,



One thing I didn't see mentioned is for you to do a

gravity flow check to make sure you have plenty of

fuel flow without the pump.  This is usually part of

the testing before initial flight.  You need to

disconnect the fuel line before the carb(s) and time

the flow rate in gallons per minute.  Make sure it is

flowing fast enough to feed the engine.  Not a good

idea to count on a single pump to keep the engine

running.



One of the accidents I read about before flying mine

was a crash that resulted from a wire coming off a

fuel pump on takeoff.  Engine went rapidly lean,

banged once and quit.  KitFox crashed for one broken

wire joint!



I put in 2 pumps and did a flow check as well.  Still

don't like my system, so I will rebuild it and check

it for more reliability.



You should check yours and fix any obstructions, if

the flow is too slow by gravity.  Trace the system

backwards from the carbs and fix everything that stops

the fuel.  In your case, there is certainly something

slowing the flow before the filter, so fix that.  But

test the system at the carb too and make sure there

isn't any more problems down stream.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- MA Stanard <cgod(at)cebridge.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Oh Wisdom of the List,  I call upon your knowledge!


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Right wing shows 3 gallons thru the sight tube, but

 the fuel filter is empty.  Does any one know why

 this could be?  Is there gas baffled in one section

 of the tank that does not reach?  I am unfamiliar

 with what the tank looks like since I am not the

 builder.   The fuel filters also seem to have a hard

 time filling up in flight and only stay half full

 when flying.  I can watch the gas coming in but most

 times it seems to be only a trickle.

 

 Any solutions or suggestions?

 

 Michael Stanard

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Correct Lynn.  What I was attempting to illustrate was that the tiny

fibers were nearly invisible and it wasn't until the owner opened

them up and saw the fibers that he found the cause of low flow.  Any

filter would have clogged the same way, but what fooled him was that

the Purolators are clear and with no visible debris in them his

attention went elsewhere until someone suggested that he take them

apart.  Nothing wrong with the Purolators.  The fact that they

weren't filling was what alerted him to the problem.  Opaque filters

wouldn't have given that clue.

Deke



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

If the pilot was using a felt (Chamois) to filter his fuel, it won't pass

water, some of the animal hair used to make felt will eventually come off

and it will be dropped into the fuel tanks.  This was quite normal and still

is for those using felt to filter their fuel.  There usually isn't a problem

with it as the screens in the gascolator will catch it.  Of course you will

want to clean the gascolator every 50 hr.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Before each flight I drip my gascolator.  That is the lowest part of the

fuel system and should have a pretty good pressure on it.  Of course I have

a high wing aircraft.  Low wing aircraft may have two gascolators.  One in

each tank sump. Or if the bottom of the cowl is slightly lower than the

tanks then one as low as possible may work.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen?

This is why an old bush pilot told me to wear a felt

cap.  It was his backup filter, but let it air out

before putting it back on.... 



Kurt S.  S-5



--- Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   If the pilot was using a felt (Chamois) to filter

 his fuel, it won't pass water.....

nandrand(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Hi Team.

              I must point out that "chamois" is not "felt" but goat skin 

and has been used as a fuel filter for a 100 years!!  "Felt" is compacted 

fibres of cloth and come in various thicknesses. I hope this don't upset 

anybody, but as my grand-dad said, we should learn something new every 

day!!!!!!!!!!!



                                       Fly Safe        Regards Noel

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

I haven't commented on this subject, but I felt (no pun intended) that 

there must be some local use of the word "felt" that is confusing. I 

have read that bush pilots used chamois to filter their fuel when 

pouring from cans....apparently trusting that which is pumped via hoses.



Lynn

On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 12:23  AM, noel anderson wrote:



[quote] 

 <nandrand(at)xtra.co.nz>



 Hi Team.

              I must point out that "chamois" is not "felt" but goat 

 skin and has been used as a fuel filter for a 100 years!!  "Felt" is 

 compacted fibres of cloth and come in various thicknesses. I hope this 

 don't upset anybody, but as my grand-dad said, we should learn 

 something new every day!!!!!!!!!!!



                                       Fly Safe        Regards Noel

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

Been there, done that.  Used an old Fedora I wore fishing in my teen age

years.  The plus side of it is it helps to keep the flies off.  My new

Aussie Akubra doesn't see any fuel.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

When I was working the AMO in gander all our pilots swore up and down on a

small mountain of bibles that they were using a "Chamios" to filter their

fuel.  I've washed enough cars to know what a chamois is,  not to mention

how much better a real chamois is at removing water from your just washed

chariot.



Back to the topic.



When I saw the first "Chamois" filter I was surprised to find out that what

they were actually using was a felt.  One of the properties of felt is it

stops the flow of water while passing gasoline. They use it (with tar ) for

the roofs of houses and in all the old dusters ( Westerns ) the Roy Rogers

always gave his horse a drink out of his ten gallon hat and John Wayne must

have dumped a thousand gallons out of his hat in his career.



Felt may have a quantity of cloth fibre in it but originally it was made

from the hair of pelts.  Canada sent shiploads of beaver pelts to England in

it's early years to make felt hats.  The Oz Akubra hats are made from rabbit

fur and are OZ answer to the Stetson.  



As you say Chamois is actually a goat skin specifically form a Chamois ....

A very soft skin which shares the felt ability to block water.  That's why

they used to carry water in goat skins



So if the "Chamois" you are using to filter your fuel is really a "Felt'  Be

aware that some of the hair that makes the felt can come of and be caught in

your gascolator.  It only takes five minutes to clean out a gascolator and

once every fifty hours or so isn't too much to do....  Just clean it when

you swap out your plugs.  Don't forget the lockwire.  Do it once or twice

and you will be surprised how easy it is to do a good job of lockwiring.



For the purpose of the topic cops... All the above is in reference to the

safe operation of Kitfox aircraft.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: Ever had this happen?

I don't think that even the most radical of "topic cops" would bust you 

for this post, Noel, and believe me I've been busted, so I know!



Lynn

do not archive

On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 09:20  AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 When I was working the AMO in gander all our pilots swore up and down 

 on a

 small mountain of bibles that they were using a "Chamios" to filter 

 their

 fuel.  I've washed enough cars to know what a chamois is,  not to 

 mention

 how much better a real chamois is at removing water from your just 

 washed

 chariot.



 Back to the topic.



 When I saw the first "Chamois" filter I was surprised to find out that 

 what

 they were actually using was a felt.  One of the properties of felt is 

 it

 stops the flow of water while passing gasoline. They use it (with tar 

 ) for

 the roofs of houses and in all the old dusters ( Westerns ) the Roy 

 Rogers

 always gave his horse a drink out of his ten gallon hat and John Wayne 

 must

 have dumped a thousand gallons out of his hat in his career.



 Felt may have a quantity of cloth fibre in it but originally it was 

 made

 from the hair of pelts.  Canada sent shiploads of beaver pelts to 

 England in

 it's early years to make felt hats.  The Oz Akubra hats are made from 

 rabbit

 fur and are OZ answer to the Stetson.



 As you say Chamois is actually a goat skin specifically form a Chamois 

 ....

 A very soft skin which shares the felt ability to block water.  That's 

 why

 they used to carry water in goat skins



 So if the "Chamois" you are using to filter your fuel is really a 

 "Felt'  Be

 aware that some of the hair that makes the felt can come of and be 

 caught in

 your gascolator.  It only takes five minutes to clean out a gascolator 

 and

 once every fifty hours or so isn't too much to do....  Just clean it 

 when

 you swap out your plugs.  Don't forget the lockwire.  Do it once or 

 twice

 and you will be surprised how easy it is to do a good job of 

 lockwiring.



 For the purpose of the topic cops... All the above is in reference to 

 the

 safe operation of Kitfox aircraft.



 Noel



> --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

jimcarriere

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Ever had this happen?

[quote="Float Flyr"]

When I saw the first "Chamois" filter I was surprised to find out that what

they were actually using was a felt.  One of the properties of felt is it

stops the flow of water while passing gasoline. 



[quote] --[/quote]



Noel, I had an old car that used felt for the crankshaft seal.  This was old-fashioned engineering but apparently common.  I understand those seals would give about a year or two of good service, so rubber and/or silicone shaft seals must have been quite an improvement back in the day.



Do not archive

Jim in NW FL

Series 7 in progress

_________________
Jim in NW FL
Kitfox Series 7 in progress
Rotec R2800

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