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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: CZAW cowl question again |
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260 is too high for sure. Is there a way to enlarge the source that feeds the incoming air to the cooler??
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca> wrote:
(Looks like my first post got stripped)
Just wondering if anyone on the list has any input on something:
I'm just completed the conversion of my 601HD to the CZAW cowl and rad placement. It was very easy and it's a very nice kit. I reckon I got an extra 5Mph out of the plane because of the cleaner profile (I've flown it for 1 hour so far)
However, I still seem to have higher oil temps. I have an 80HP 912 and I sprung for the larger oil cooler which I've installed as directed in front of the muffler can. Now, the oil cooler inlet duct in the cowl is rather small: I see a 3/4" opening at the end of the NACA duct.
Has anyone with a recent R912 install on an HD or XL with the same oil cooler placement have the same issue with a small opening? There seems to be a real lack of pictures of the install to compare mine against so maybe someone can chime in? My oil temps reach 260F which seems a bit higher than most but I do know that my older engine has an oil temp probe located on the bottom front oil outlet fitting rather than the newer location at the oil pump housing. I reckon my temps are going to be higher since the oil temps are read after the oil has gone through the engine just before going into the tank. How much higher? I have no idea but does 30F seems reasonable? More?
Right now I'm waiting to hear back from anyone before I go and do something drastic like make the opening bigger cutting the roof of the NACA duct forward or make up some kind of ducting work to come closer the oil cooler and seal it up somehow.
Thanks in advance!
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
I've included a picture of the cowl so you can see what I'm talking about on the forum
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: CZAW cowl question again |
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Here's the picture of the CZAW cowl I mentioned. Notice the oil cooler inlet on the bottom. The opening at the back is only 3/4". Since it's on an upwards angle when installed, cutting the "roof" of the inlet will make for a wider opening to allow more air in.
I've also attached another picture of a red 601 with the same cowl and the lower inlet seems to be missing much of the so-called "roof". You can clearly see the oil cooler in there.
Any thoughts?
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: CZAW cowl question again |
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Remember, the 260F reading is taken from a location where the oil is HOT after gone through the engine. Newer 912's take the reading at the oil pump after it's gone through the cooler. Bound to be colder but I don't know how much...
Yes, I suppose I can cut the roof of the inlet a bit to make the opening larger by virtue of it being more "forward" because the inlet is on an upwards angle. I have posted pictures on the forum so everyone can see what I'm talking about.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 29, 2006, at 2:06 PM, n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com) wrote:
| Quote: |
260 is too high for sure. Is there a way to enlarge the source that feeds the incoming air to the cooler??
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca (webmaster(at)upac.ca)> wrote:
(Looks like my first post got stripped)
Just wondering if anyone on the list has any input on something:
I'm just completed the conversion of my 601HD to the CZAW cowl and rad placement. It was very easy and it's a very nice kit. I reckon I got an extra 5Mph out of the plane because of the cleaner profile (I've flown it for 1 hour so far)
However, I still seem to have higher oil temps. I have an 80HP 912 and I sprung for the larger oil cooler which I've installed as directed in front of the muffler can. Now, the oil cooler inlet duct in the cowl is rather small: I see a 3/4" opening at the end of the NACA duct.
Has anyone with a recent R912 install on an HD or XL with the same oil cooler placement have the same issue with a small opening? There seems to be a real lack of pictures of the install to compare mine against so maybe someone can chime in? My oil temps reach 260F which seems a bit higher than most but I do know that my older engine has an oil temp probe located on the bottom front oil outlet fitting rather than the newer location at the oil pump housing. I reckon my temps are going to be higher since the oil temps are read after the oil has gone through the engine just before going into the tank. How much higher? I have no idea but does 30F seems reasonable? More?
Right now I'm waiting to hear back from anyone before I go and do something drastic like make the opening bigger cutting the roof of the NACA duct forward or make up some kind of ducting work to come closer the oil cooler and seal it up somehow.
Thanks in advance!
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
I've included a picture of the cowl so you can see what I'm talking about on the forum
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: CZAW cowl question again |
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You should take a few moments and rethink your idea of oil and for that matter water temps. If you monitor temps coming out of a cooler then that will give you a false sense of security. The temp you are concerned with is the actual internal one that the engine has in it. If the cooler is pretty effective in removing heat then the temp heading to the motor is going to be a number you like to see, not the real number. Here is an example, If you look closely at the panel on my plane,, www.haaspowerair.com you will see I have three water temp gauges. The top one is monitoring the actual temp in the block just as it heads out to the thermostat housing, one thing I should add is I don't run a thermostat, I use a restrictor disc. That took several tries to get the exact hole size to let the motor cool and not let the coolant pass through the system either too fast or too slow. The main reason I do this is I cannot have a overheating failure caused by a hung thermostat. The second gauge shows the temp as the coolant enters the radiator. The third gauge shows the temp at the intake side of the water pump. This way I can see how efficient the radiator is working. Here is a what if,,, I only look at the incoming water temp and it shows 160 f,, I say to myself " the motor is not overheating". So now lets say the rad is really efficient, guess what, the actual water temp in the engine is pushing 240,, thats one cooked motor. !!!!!!!!!! The point I am trying to make is the temp of the oil or coolant heading back to the motor doesn't mean too much, it's the actual operating temp INSIDE the motor you need to be concerned about. Just my .02 cents worth..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca> wrote:
Remember, the 260F reading is taken from a location where the oil is HOT after gone through the engine. Newer 912's take the reading at the oil pump after it's gone through the cooler. Bound to be colder but I don't know how much...
Yes, I suppose I can cut the roof of the inlet a bit to make the opening larger by virtue of it being more "forward" because the inlet is on an upwards angle. I have posted pictures on the forum so everyone can see what I'm talking about.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 29, 2006, at 2:06 PM, n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com) wrote:
[quote]
260 is too high for sure. Is there a way to enlarge the source that feeds the incoming air to the cooler??
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca (webmaster(at)upac.ca)> wrote:
(Looks like my first post got stripped)
Just wondering if anyone on the list has any input on something:
I'm just completed the conversion of my 601HD to the CZAW cowl and rad placement. It was very easy and it's a very nice kit. I reckon I got an extra 5Mph out of the plane because of the cleaner profile (I've flown it for 1 hour so far)
However, I still seem to have higher oil temps. I have an 80HP 912 and I sprung for the larger oil cooler which I've installed as directed in front of the muffler can. Now, the oil cooler inlet duct in the cowl is rather small: I see a 3/4" opening at the end of the NACA duct.
Has anyone with a recent R912 install on an HD or XL with the same oil cooler placement have the same issue with a small opening? There seems to be a real lack of pictures of the install to compare mine against so maybe someone can chime in? My oil temps reach 260F which seems a bit higher than most but I do know that my older engine has an oil temp probe located on the bottom front oil outlet fitting rather than the newer location at the oil pump housing. I reckon my temps are going to be higher since the oil temps are read after the oil has gone through the engine just before going into the tank. How much higher? I have no idea but does 30F seems reasonable? More?
Right now I'm waiting to hear back from anyone before I go and do something drastic like make the opening bigger cutting the roof of the NACA duct forward or make up some kind of ducting work to come closer the oil cooler and seal it up somehow.
Thanks in advance!
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
I've included a picture of the cowl so you can see what I'm talking about on the forum
| Quote: |
roelectric.com
com/">www.buildersbooks.com
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homebuilthelp.com
www.matronics.com/contribution
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com/">www.buildersbooks.com
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====================================
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====================================
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:35 am Post subject: CZAW cowl question again |
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Ben I understand where you're coming from. Keep in mind however that I'm using a Rotax 912 engine where they specify the oil temp range based on a manual for a new engine. The oil temp reading on 912 engines since at least the mid 90s are taken at the oil pump housing after they have gone through the oil cooler. They state a max temp reading of 280F in that location.My engine dates back to at least 1990 according to the serial number and I've been dealing with quite a number of differences in my engine compared to newer ones of which the oil temps are one of them. The location of my probe is not in the newer location on the oil pump housing but on the front oil return line fitting where normally there is plug (or a banjo bolt for pusher configurations).
I've reported that I get a highest reading of 260F which is till within the 280F max temp according to a newer manual. I'm assuming at this point of course that the oil is bound to be hotter here but I don't know by how much...
This is why I don't know if I should try and mod the cowl to get them lower when they actually might be well below what I'm getting or just accept them since they are bound to be hotter.
I have a new VDO probe designed for current engine location but I can't use it on mine because the threads and hole size are different in my oil pump housing! Rotax changes the 912 constantly is this is just one of the little things that I've had to deal with...
I have a friend with an engine of the same vintage and I'll check with him to see where his oil temp probe is and perhaps try and correlate my readings with his.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 30, 2006, at 1:37 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com) wrote:
| Quote: |
You should take a few moments and rethink your idea of oil and for that matter water temps. If you monitor temps coming out of a cooler then that will give you a false sense of security. The temp you are concerned with is the actual internal one that the engine has in it. If the cooler is pretty effective in removing heat then the temp heading to the motor is going to be a number you like to see, not the real number. Here is an example, If you look closely at the panel on my plane,, www.haaspowerair.com you will see I have three water temp gauges. The top one is monitoring the actual temp in the block just as it heads out to the thermostat housing, one thing I should add is I don't run a thermostat, I use a restrictor disc. That took several tries to get the exact hole size to let the motor cool and not let the coolant pass through the system either too fast or too slow. The main reason I do this is I cannot have a overheating failure caused by a hung thermostat. The second gauge shows the temp as the coolant enters the radiator. The third gauge shows the temp at the intake side of the water pump. This way I can see how efficient the radiator is working. Here is a what if,,, I only look at the incoming water temp and it shows 160 f,, I say to myself " the motor is not overheating". So now lets say the rad is really efficient, guess what, the actual water temp in the engine is pushing 240,, thats one cooked motor. !!!!!!!!!! The point I am trying to make is the temp of the oil or coolant heading back to the motor doesn't mean too much, it's the actual operating temp INSIDE the motor you need to be concerned about. Just my .02 cents worth..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca (webmaster(at)upac.ca)> wrote:
Remember, the 260F reading is taken from a location where the oil is HOT after gone through the engine. Newer 912's take the reading at the oil pump after it's gone through the cooler. Bound to be colder but I don't know how much...
Yes, I suppose I can cut the roof of the inlet a bit to make the opening larger by virtue of it being more "forward" because the inlet is on an upwards angle. I have posted pictures on the forum so everyone can see what I'm talking about.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 29, 2006, at 2:06 PM, n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com) wrote:
| Quote: |
260 is too high for sure. Is there a way to enlarge the source that feeds the incoming air to the cooler??
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca (webmaster(at)upac.ca)> wrote:
(Looks like my first post got stripped)
Just wondering if anyone on the list has any input on something:
I'm just completed the conversion of my 601HD to the CZAW cowl and rad placement. It was very easy and it's a very nice kit. I reckon I got an extra 5Mph out of the plane because of the cleaner profile (I've flown it for 1 hour so far)
However, I still seem to have higher oil temps. I have an 80HP 912 and I sprung for the larger oil cooler which I've installed as directed in front of the muffler can. Now, the oil cooler inlet duct in the cowl is rather small: I see a 3/4" opening at the end of the NACA duct.
Has anyone with a recent R912 install on an HD or XL with the same oil cooler placement have the same issue with a small opening? There seems to be a real lack of pictures of the install to compare mine against so maybe someone can chime in? My oil temps reach 260F which seems a bit higher than most but I do know that my older engine has an oil temp probe located on the bottom front oil outlet fitting rather than the newer location at the oil pump housing. I reckon my temps are going to be higher since the oil temps are read after the oil has gone through the engine just before going into the tank. How much higher? I have no idea but does 30F seems reasonable? More?
Right now I'm waiting to hear back from anyone before I go and do something drastic like make the opening bigger cutting the roof of the NACA duct forward or make up some kind of ducting work to come closer the oil cooler and seal it up somehow.
Thanks in advance!
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
I've included a picture of the cowl so you can see what I'm talking about on the forum
roelectric.com
com/">www.buildersbooks.com
kitlog.com
homebuilthelp.com
www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: CZAW cowl question again |
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Finally, some pictures of my installed cowl for anyone who wants to have a look and comment:
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| Side view of the engine showing the oil cooler mounted in front of the muffler |
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| Shot of the main rad on top and oil cooler on the bottom |
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| Backside of the cowl showing the oil cooler duct. The oil cooler sits a good 5.5 inches behind the end of the duct |
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| close up of the inlet. Notice how thin it is |
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pchapman(at)ionsys.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: CZAW cowl question again |
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Trevor Page / zodieman wrote:
| Quote: | >I'm just completed the conversion of my 601HD to the CZAW cowl and
>rad placement. It was very easy and it's a very nice kit. I
|
Just to confirm, what was the configuration before the change?
Was it the old under-fuselage rad placement?
I'm curious about the use of a more sophisticated cowl like this,
although who knows what supply there might be in the future, given
the end of CZAW's production for Zenair.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC
(Original style cowl, rads moved into sides of cowl as Flypass used to do)
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: CZAW cowl question again |
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I spoke to CZAW about the availability and so far they're still more than happy to supply kits and parts for 601s considering the firewall-forward system of their SportCruiser is identical to the 601 system they developed.
On another note, I took some detailed measurements of my oil cooler and placement and wouldn't you know it.. they are all perfect according to this article I found:
http://www.ch601.org/resources/cooling_systems2.htm
Looks like maybe the folks in the Czech republic we're doing their homework! Even though the placement, inlet size and distances are right I still have to make up a plenum of sort to funnel the air into the oil cooler but It's worth a try. I reckon I can whip that up in a few hours of glass work.
It seems this cowl has gone through a number of changes over the last few years and mine is the latest iteration.
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: CZAW cowl question again |
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Peter, I had the same arrangement you have not (inside the cowl with outside scoops a la Flypass).
Never worked right for me. This new system is much nicer and cleaner looking and I got a few more Mph out of the deal...
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 30, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Peter Chapman wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com (pchapman(at)ionsys.com)>
Trevor Page / zodieman wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | I'm just completed the conversion of my 601HD to the CZAW cowl and rad placement. It was very easy and it's a very nice kit. I
|
|
Just to confirm, what was the configuration before the change?
Was it the old under-fuselage rad placement?
I'm curious about the use of a more sophisticated cowl like this, although who knows what supply there might be in the future, given the end of CZAW's production for Zenair.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC
(Original style cowl, rads moved into sides of cowl as Flypass used to do)
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zodieman
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: CZAW cowl question again |
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Here are some pictures of the oil cooler plenum. Basically it's an extension to the air inlet on the bottom of the cowl. I'll be doing the final fitting and sealer trimming tomorrow at the air strip.
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