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Oil Filters for 912UL

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JimmieBlackwell(at)austin
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

In recent days I have done some research on oil  filters and in particular Rotax filters versus Carquest and Wix filters.   The results are rather revealing.

  

 I think that all Kitfoxers should know these  results, however there seems to be a reluctance to discuss oil filters on the  list, so I will not publish the results of my research on the list.  Guess  I am to dumb to understand why very few on the list want to discuss this  important topic.

  

 I will be happy to provide the information to  anyone that contacts me directly on line or on my cell phone 512  695-6627.

  

 Jimmie

  

   [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Jimmie, perhaps I missed what you're talking about,  but I haven't noticed any reluctance to discuss oil filters.  It's a topic  that affects all of us.  Please post your results.

 Thanks,

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filters for 912UL

I say post and thanks for taking the time to look into.

My model III was run on carquest by the past owner for over 100 hrs and still runs great. I use Rotax now.

johnciolino(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Jimmy,

  

 I would agree there is no reluctance to discuss oil filters but there is certainly a lack of information. It aggravates my penny-pinching soul to pay as much as asked for a Rotax filter when an appropriate auto filter will do the same thing.  I tried to find the specs for the Rotax filer but had no luck.  If you have info please post we all need it--even if we decide not to use it.

  

 John Ciolino

 Movel IV-1200

 N9294Y

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Jimmie Blackwell" <JimmieBlackwell(at)austin.rr.com> 

    In recent days I have done some research on oil filters and in particular Rotax filters versus Carquest and Wix filters.  The results are rather revealing.

  

 I think that all Kitfoxers should know these results, however there seems to be a reluctance to discuss oil filters on the list, so I will not publish the results of my research on the list.  Guess I am to dumb to understand why very few on the list want to discuss this important topic.

  

 I will be happy to provide the information to anyone that contacts me directly on line or on my cell phone 512 695-6627.

  

 Jimmie

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Most of us around Houston have used the Carquest 

85056 (if I remember the number right) for the last 

10 years and for nearly a couple thousand hrs 

combined on our 912s with no problems.  What's the 

beef?



--- Original Message ---

From: johnciolino(at)comcast.net

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com, <kitfox-

list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Oil Filters for 912UL



 	  Quote: 	
		  Jimmy,



I would agree there is no reluctance to discuss oil 

filters but there is certainly a lack of information. 
	


It aggravates my penny-pinching soul to pay as much 

as asked for a Rotax filter when an appropriate auto 

filter will do the same thing.  I tried to find the 

specs for the Rotax filer but had no luck.  If you 

have info please post we all need it--even if we 

decide not to use it.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

John Ciolino

Movel IV-1200

N9294Y



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Jimmie Blackwell" 

<JimmieBlackwell(at)austin.rr.com> 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

In recent days I have done some research on oil 

filters and in particular Rotax filters versus 
	


Carquest and Wix filters.  The results are rather 

revealing.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I think that all Kitfoxers should know these 

results, however there seems to be a reluctance to 
	


discuss oil filters on the list, so I will not 

publish the results of my research on the list.  

Guess I am to dumb to understand why very few on the 

list want to discuss this important topic.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I will be happy to provide the information to anyone 

that contacts me directly on line or on my cell phone 
	


512 695-6627.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Jimmie

johnmay

Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi.

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Jimmie,

  This is John May iin Kalamazoo Michigan. I have a Model IV-1200 Speedster with a Rotax 912UL (approx 735 Hours). I am the second owner ( I bought it at 500 Hours). The original owner/builder told me to use the NAPA  gold #1056 spin on oil filter. Every other oil change I have the oil analysis done by Blackstone. The oil analysis up to this point has always been in line with what is to be expected for its age. I want to do what is best for the engine so I am interested in what you have found out. John May



Jimmie Blackwell <JimmieBlackwell(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]        In recent days I have done some research on oil filters and in particular Rotax filters versus Carquest and Wix filters.  The results are [quote][b]

JimmieBlackwell(at)austin
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

John

  

 I appreciate the information on the NAPA filter.  Would be interesting  to know how many compression strokes you need to turn your engine to get a burp  from the oil tank.

  

 To help protect an information source I would rather not post this on the  

list.  Following is some information and observations I have  made.



This issue involves the newer black Rotax oil filters.  An  inside source 

told me that Rotax had stopped selling the black oil filters  because someone 

discovered that some of the filters did not have an  anti-drain back feature 

.  To verify this I called the order line at  Lockwood to order a filter and 

was told that they had rejected the last  shipment of oil filters from Rotax 

and would have new ones in a couple of  weeks.  The order line could 

not/would not elaborate on the  problem.



This causes me to have concern about the quality control at  Rotax. 

Additionally, without an anti-drain back function any debris inside  the 

filter could flow right back into the engine and we certainly don't want  

that to happen.  If anything is caught in the oil filter I want it to  stay 

there.



Will also share my observation between the Rotax oil  filter and the Carquest 

85056 oil filter.  In the beginning when I  acquired my plane I did two oil 

changes using the Carquest filter and noted  that I had to turn my engine 

through about 30 compression strokes to get a  burp out of the oil tank after 

the engine sat idle for a few days.   Then I changed to the Rotax filter and 

found that I now had to turn the  engine through at least 100 compression 

strokes to get a burp from the oil  tank.  In the last week I installed a 

Carquest filter and once again  note that 30 compression strokes will get a 

burp from the oil tank even  after the engine sat idle for 4 days.  I realize 

there is an issue  about bypass pressure of the Carquest or any other filter 

other than  Rotax.  Hopefully, in the near future I will be able to get the 

bypass  pressure spec for the Rotax filter.



To Phil Lockwood's credit he called  me and we discussed the issue of the oil 

filters.  While he and I did  not agree completely on the oil filters, my 

opinion is that he is trying to  do the right thing for his customers while 

staying within the boundaries he  has to work

 [quote]   ---

johnmay

Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi.

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Jimmie,

  I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by "burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct?  Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is filled before I start it up.       John May from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200  912 UL N48PN )



Jimmie Blackwell <JimmieBlackwell(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]    John

   

  I appreciate the information on the NAPA filter.  Would be  interesting to know how many compression strokes you need to turn your engine to get a burp from the oil tank.

   

  To help protect an information source I would rather not post this on the 

list.  Following is some information and observations I have made.



This issue involves the newer black Rotax oil filters.  An inside source 

told me that Rotax had stopped selling the black oil filters because someone 

discovered that some of the filters did not have an anti-drain back feature 

.  To verify this I called the order line at Lockwood to order a filter and 

was told that they had rejected the last shipment of oil filters from Rotax 

and would have new ones in a couple of weeks.  The order line could 

not/would not elaborate on the problem.



This causes me to have concern about the quality control at Rotax. 

Additionally, without an anti-drain back function any debris inside the 

filter  could flow right back into the engine and we certainly don't want 

that to happen.  If anything is caught in the oil filter I want it to stay 

there.



Will also share my observation between the Rotax oil filter and the Carquest 

85056 oil filter.  In the beginning when I acquired my plane I did two oil 

changes using the Carquest filter and noted that I had to turn my engine 

through about 30 compression strokes to get a burp out of the oil tank after 

the engine sat idle for a few days.  Then I changed to the Rotax filter and 

found that I now had to turn the engine through at least 100 compression 

strokes to get a burp from the oil tank.  In the last week I installed a 

Carquest filter and once again note that 30 compression strokes will get a 

burp from the oil tank even after the engine sat idle for 4 days.  I realize 

there is an issue about bypass pressure of the Carquest or any other filter 

other  than Rotax.  Hopefully, in the near future I will be able to get the 

bypass pressure spec for the Rotax filter.



To Phil Lockwood's credit he called me and we discussed the issue of the oil 

filters.  While he and I did not agree completely on the oil filters, my 

opinion is that he is trying to do the right thing for his customers while 

staying within the boundaries he has to work

  [quote]  ---

pulsair(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

John,

 I use a non-Rotax filter and it takes me from  175 to 230 strokes before I hear a gurgle. Jeff 912UL Columbus,  Ohio 

 [quote]   ---

JimmieBlackwell(at)austin
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

John

  

 Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to.  I  am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of  compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and  Carquest filters.  I think we are close to discovering something  significant.  Please keep me informed.

  

 Thank you.

  

 Jimmie

 [quote]   ---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Jimmie,  

This puzzles the heck out of me too!!!  My understanding of “dry sump” engines is that it is the blow-by from the compression stroke that pressures the crankcase and pushes the oil out and back to the external reservoir.  Couple that with the speculated difference in the filters – the different pressures of the relief valve – and,,,,,   

   

What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes through the filter or not?                             The number of compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter.      ???????  

   

I owe you an apology.  My engine takes about 20 - 27 blades (about 35 compressions?) with the rotax filters or with the CarQuest filters.  Less in the summer time than in the winter.  I check the oil every time I fly.  I though you had been smoking something until Jeff came up with a different number too.  But he claims an unspecified non-rotax filter.  

   

I need someone to explain this to me.  I must not understand something here.  And I think it is important to understand this.  

   

I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure relief valves.  It is not easy to come by!  

   

Randy  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jimmie Blackwell

 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 8:54 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil Filters for 912UL  

  

     

John  

    

   

    

Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to.  I am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest filters.  I think we are close to discovering something significant.  Please keep me informed.  

    

   

    

Thank you.  

    

   

    

Jimmie  

  [quote]    

---

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

It may simply be the quality and fit of the check  valve in the filter.   It's there to keep the oil from draining back  to the engine so the filter is always full.  Some filters are more  effective than others and it may even vary from filter to filter.  If  someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and  compare the internals.  I'd bet there is a difference.

 Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there  has to be some sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too.   That may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   John

    

   Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to.     I am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of    compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and    Carquest filters.  I think we are close to discovering something    significant.  Please keep me informed.

    

   Thank you.

    

   Jimmie

   [quote]     ---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

The below link has an enormous amount of  information on oil filters that should enable one to make informed decisions  regarding oil filter choices rather than anecdotal.

 Deke

 http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

  

 ---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web to compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use a coil spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If one is not sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality. I forget all the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have settled on NAPA Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was Wix. These two had the largest surface area and the best seal and the cost was not unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical comparison study:

  http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html

 Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more links. The mopar link you referred to is a better link  http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a bunch of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story.



 Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only restriction in the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That is the reason some guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when light oil is used.

 Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve?

 Regards, Paul

 ===================

 At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the filter.   It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so the filter is always full.  Some filters are more effective than others and it may even vary from filter to filter.  If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the internals.  I'd bet there is a difference.

 Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too.  That may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly.

 Deke

     John     Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to.  I am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest filters.  I think we are close to discovering something significant.  Please keep me informed.     Thank you.     Jimmie   ---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

If I'm not mistaken Paul, Napa Gold and Silver are  both Wix products manufactured by Dana.  I also use the Napa Gold on my  Soob and replace it every 25 hours, not because it's required, but I figure it's  cheap insurance.

 The NSI EA81 uses a similar remote sump  system to the 912, but with a check valve in the line going to the  sump to prevent drain back.  Between that and the filter anti drain back  valve, the system is always ready.  If Rotax left off the check valve it  may have been to reduce parts count and potential failure points.  I  haven't heard of any of them going bad though.

 Deke 

  

 [quote]   ---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Thanks

 Paul

 ==================

 At 12:55 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]If I'm not mistaken Paul, Napa Gold and Silver are both Wix products manufactured by Dana.  I also use the Napa Gold on my Soob and replace it every 25 hours, not because it's required, but I figure it's cheap insurance.

 The NSI EA81 uses a similar remote sump system to the 912, but with a check valve in the line going to the sump to prevent drain back.  Between that and the filter anti drain back valve, the system is always ready.  If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been to reduce parts count and potential failure points.  I haven't heard of any of them going bad though.

 Deke 

  

   ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been

to reduce parts count and potential failure points.  I haven't heard

of any of them going bad though.

Deke



This is the quandry.  How do you install a check valve that will prevent oil 

movement in the intake line while the engine is not running, but will 

(without fail) allow oil to flow to the pump after start-up.  Remember the 

oil is running from the tank to the engine in both cases and the return line 

which is above the tank oil level is not a player.



Lowell

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Oil Filters for 912UL

Good question Lowell.  It shows you're thinking!  I was speaking of the

return line to the firewall sump as on my NSI engine.  My return line is

large, about 3/4" ID and the check valve is low on the line near the

crankcase.  The valve inhibits any back flow to the crankcase.  At first I

assumed that the 912 had a similar plumbing arrangement, but obviously

that's not necessarily true, or maybe it is, but sans the check valve,

thereby allowing the line to drain back.

Deke



 	  Quote: 	
		  

   If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been

 to reduce parts count and potential failure points.  I haven't heard

 of any of them going bad though.

 Deke



 This is the quandry.  How do you install a check valve that will prevent

oil
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   movement in the intake line while the engine is not running, but will

 (without fail) allow oil to flow to the pump after start-up.  Remember the

 oil is running from the tank to the engine in both cases and the return

line
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   which is above the tank oil level is not a player.



 Lowell

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