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Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

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archermj(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

I have a Jabiru 3300 and have a 702-1 starter  contactor from B&C.  I have a question about the solenoid supplied  with the Jabiru.  I am considering just hooking up the 702-1 contactor  directly to the starter.  It looks like the "solenoid" supplied by  Jabiru is really just another contactor.  It is wired and works the same as  the 702-1 but with out the diode.  I am planning on hooking up  the contactor similar to what is depicted in aeroelectric Z-20. There  it has the lead off of the 702-1 contactor hooked to the Jabiru  solenoid.   It sure looks to me that all I will be doing is putting  two contactors in series.  I am not sure of the value in this.  I am  considering just leaving off the Jabiru solenoid and connecting the 702-1  directly to the starter.  

  

 Is this smart or is there something I am  missing?

  

 Thanks 

 Matt 

 www.zodiacxl.com

   [quote][b]

andy(at)suncoastjabiru.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

Matt,  

   

As others have said, you want to have the Jabiru-supplied solenoid (contactor) wired only for the engine starter. The starter will pull up to 700 amps on initial contact and if there’s any additional resistance in the starter circuit it will degrade starting performance. If you want to fit a master relay for other panel power, keep it separate.  

   

Hope this helps, Andy  

         

Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.  

  

  

39248 South Ave. Zephyrhills, FL 33542  

Tel: 813 779 2324 Fax: 813 779 2246  

www.suncoastjabiru.com  

  

   

--

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

I suppose I should keep my mouth shut, but in case there are other folks  who are daunted by the diagram Modified Z-16, I want to affirm your desire for  simplicity.  I am impressed by the efforts of Vozzen and Rico. I dont mind  the efforts of electical engineers to plan for every possible failure  mode.   I understand that some experimental aircraft builders want to  build an electrical system to rival any of the General Aviation fleet.

  

 But there is another strategy. If you are careful about the  avionics you purchase,   use some common sense and dont install a  comprehensive lighting system ( how badly do you want to crash at night? .... if  you dont have lights you wont be tempted..) and are willing to just read your  own voltmeter, you can have a simple system that can be installed in a few hours  instead of a few months.   

  

 It is ok to use a couple toggle switches for your ignition kills.  It  is ok to just run breaker switches or switch and fuse to a couple radios.   If you keep your electical loads down, then you dont need much of an  alternator.  As you may know, if you have too big a load on the Jabiru  alternator, you can crispy the stator.  You can add another seperate  alternator, but why would you want to?  

  

 The notion of a solonoid operated by a master switch sounds good, but if  the wire or coil in it goes south, so does your electrical power.    That may balance the possiblity of shorting the big wire to the starter  solonoid.

  

 If you are building a small, high performance bird like a Sonex and want to  make it IFR, by all means design and build as complicated an electrical system  as possible.  May I suggest autopilot,  a Garmin radio stack,   electrical gyros and a seat warmer?   The extra time it takes to build  all that will prolong your life just that much longer.

  

 I am just saying that IN MY OPINION, it is perfectly OK to only have a  couple circuits.  One for the start,  one for the radios and one for a  couple other small things.  If you are a bit paranoid, then include a  switch in the charging circuit so you can shut off the alternator power to the  battery if your volt meter gets too high.   Hook the power  circuits  to the post on the starter solonoid that the big battery cable  goes to...just so it is easier to disconnect the battery.  It is true that  if the solonoid sticks, you will have some drama while the starter twirls the  engine until the battery dies...but when is the last time your car did that to  you?  It is wired the same way.   Just buy a new start solonoid  every 500 hours or so.  That should preclude the arcing from dirt.

  

 Ok, so let the reactions begin.   I'm sure I deserve  to be  flamed.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

Doug,

 	  Quote: 	
		      Hook the power circuits  to the post on the starter solonoid that 

 the big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to disconnect the 

 battery.  It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you will have some 

 drama while the starter twirls the engine until the battery dies...


	


The use of a battery contactor (be it relay or manually actuated) is 

mainly related to fire hazard. What is the rationale for keeping an 

always hot fat wire and not being able to to cope with a sticking 

starter solenoid ? Does it really bring any advantage over 

state-of-the-art aviation architecture ?

 	  Quote: 	
		   but when is the last time your car did that to you?


	


Hmm, there have been some starter issues.

I'll try to stay away from car related  "when is the last times" about 

Jabiru.

Maybe when the dust settles down and those SBs are relaxed 



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr



 	  Quote: 	
		   I

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

In a message dated 12/8/2006 7:08:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,  Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Doug,

 	  Quote: 	
		      Hook the power circuits  to the    post on the starter solonoid that 

 the big battery cable goes    to...just so it is easier to disconnect the 

 battery.  It is true    that if the solonoid sticks, you will have some 

 drama while the    starter twirls the engine until the battery dies...


	


The use of a    battery contactor (be it relay or manually actuated) is 

mainly related to    fire hazard. What is the rationale for keeping an 

always hot fat wire and    not being able to to cope with a sticking 

starter solenoid ? Does it    really bring any advantage over 

state-of-the-art aviation architecture    ?

 	  Quote: 	
		   but when is the last time your car did that to    you?


	


Hmm, there have been some starter issues.

I'll try to stay away    from car related  "when is the last times" about 

Jabiru.

Maybe    when the dust settles down and those SBs are relaxed 



Best    regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

Bonjour Gilles,

  

 I am the proud USA importer of the French kit airplane, the Sky  Ranger!  Phillippe Prevot of Best Off has done a great job of designing a  strong, light, quick to build craft.  ( see www.skyranger.net or our website, www.skyrangeraircraft.com )

  

 My thoughts are from my experience with installing a Jabiru 2200 in a Sky  Ranger and a 3300 in a Lightning.

  

 I just run the large power wire about 6" to the starter solenoid.  I  would attached fused or breaker protected circuits from the post there to  elsewhere.  If one of them were to short, I would expect protection to  kick in or if it shorted on the way to the breaker, I would expect the wire  to just fry without much damage. The runs are short and the firewall penetration  carefully protected.

  

 I note that the same large 6" wire would go to the master solenoid and then  another 6" wire would to to the Jab start solenoid. No real difference in  protection for the large wire.  In either case it has a 6" unprotected  run. But if the master solenoid, which must be continously held in place by  current were to experience low voltage, coil failure, switch failure or a wire  break then all power would be lost......unless one has a backup circuit  that bypasses the master....which is the situation I began at. I understand that  popular aviation thought is in love with the master solenoid, but I am wondering  if it adds complexity and vulnerability to solve an unlikely problem...on very  simple light airplanes.  I like them more on GA airplanes with their 60  -100 amp circuits with retractable gear,  lights, dog polishers and window  foggers.

  

 Part of my other work involves control circuits in ground  equipment and they do short out and melt down.  The damage is minimal  usually for small guage wires...the sizes used for 10 amps or less.  Of  course a short can cause a fire but there must be combustables nearby and the  insulation must be combustable.  Otherwise a brief arc, a brief smell and  it is all over.

  

 If a starter solenoid actually stuck, it will just keep turning the engine  untill the battery power is drained or the starter melts down.   While  disconcerting, it would happen on the ground and be over quickly.   No  so if your master solenoid craps out in the air.  You lose radios,  EIS,  intercom,  flaps and whatever else you power.   Worse,  you may not be able to replace it easily on the ground.   Without it  you could not start up and fly somewhere for another one.

  

 I mentioned the failure of an auto start solonoid because the Jab part  is one!.   Jabiru tries to use common auto parts where possible.

  

 Ca va?

  

 Doug

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 12/8/2006 7:08:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,  Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee    <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>



Doug,

 	  Quote: 	
		      Hook    the power circuits  to the post on the starter solonoid that 

 the    big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to disconnect the 

    battery.  It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you will have some    

 drama while the starter twirls the engine until the battery    dies...


	


The use of a battery contactor (be it relay or manually    actuated) is 

mainly related to fire hazard. What is the rationale for    keeping an 

always hot fat wire and not being able to to cope with a    sticking 

starter solenoid ? Does it really bring any advantage over    

state-of-the-art aviation architecture ?

 	  Quote: 	
		   but when is the    last time your car did that to you?


	


Hmm, there have been some starter    issues.

I'll try to stay away from car related  "when is the last    times" about 

Jabiru.

Maybe when the dust settles down and those SBs are    relaxed 



Best    regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr



 	  Quote: 	
		    sp;             (And Get Some AWESOME FREE   find  fts  ic    you for  nbsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List  = Use  lities  Day       -->  =====


	




	


 

  

  [quote][b]

grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

I'm a late starter to this topic, but I applaud Doug's pleas to keep it  simple.   Less things, less to go wrong.   My RV-4 with Lyc  has a Datsun alternator, Odyssey battery and no lights or gyros at  all.   It is legal at that.   I do use a Master relay, but  eliminated the separate starter relay when I saw that my starter had a piggyback  relay as per a car.    Yes, my starter cable is 'live' all the  time the Master is on, but if I have a short I can isolate it by switching the  Master off.   Yes, I will lose all power, but it is a VFR  aircraft  so that isn't a biggie.

  

 Keep it simple, spend the dollars saved on avgas, and go flying this year  instead of the next.

  

 Grant Piper

 RV-4 VH-PIO 260hrs.

 SAAA (TC)

 [quote]   ---

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

Grant,



 	  Quote: 	
		      Yes, my starter cable is 'live' all the time the Master is on, but 

 if I have a short I can isolate it by switching the Master off.   Yes, 

 I will lose all power, but it is a VFR aircraft  so that isn't a biggie.


	


Correct. This is how any aircraft should be wired.



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Keep it simple, spend the dollars saved on avgas, and go flying this 

 year instead of the next.


	


Perfectly right. The problem is, some builders confuse 'simple' with 

over simplistic, or try to take short cuts on safety by 'simplifying' 

the thinking process before building.

For those who think the electrical circuit is worth some consideration, 

a visit to http://www.aeroelectric.com will prove very informative.



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

Hi Doug,



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am the proud USA importer of the French kit airplane, the Sky Ranger!


	


Yes everyone here knows the Sky Ranger.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ranger and a 3300 in a Lightning.

  

 I just run the large power wire about 6" to the starter solenoid.  I 

 would attached fused or breaker protected circuits from the post there 

 to elsewhere.  If one of them were to short, I would expect protection 

 to kick in or if it shorted on the way to the breaker, I would expect 

 the wire to just fry without much damage. The runs are short and the 

 firewall penetration carefully protected.


	


If complexity (and maybe weight) is a consideration, why use breakers at 

all ? Fuses would just do, with lower cost, installation complexity and 

weight.



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 I note that the same large 6" wire would go to the master solenoid and 

 then another 6" wire would to to the Jab start solenoid. No real 

 difference in protection for the large wire.  In either case it has a 

 6" unprotected run.


	


The battery contactor is to be located as close to it's battery as 

physically possible. The role isn't to protect wires (they are large, 

and won't fry), but to disconnect the ship's circuit from any source of 

electricity.

If the component are close together, you may consider a metal strap 

instead of a wire. Still simpler.



 	  Quote: 	
		    But if the master solenoid, which must be continously held in place 

 by current were to experience low voltage, coil failure, switch 

 failure or a wire break then all power would be lost......unless one 

 has a backup circuit that bypasses the master....which is the 

 situation I began at.


	


The goal of the electrical circuit designer is to minimise the fire and 

fault hazard.

The only way to experience low voltage is low battery and/or faulty 

charging circuit. The engine is not electrically dependent, and I 

suppose that in the USA, ultralights only fly day VFR ? No critical 

circuit to keep running. So why take shortcuts on safety for fear of 

lacking of electricity ?



 	  Quote: 	
		   I understand that popular aviation thought is in love with the master 

 solenoid, but I am wondering if it adds complexity and vulnerability 

 to solve an unlikely problem...on very simple light airplanes.


	


Simplicity should be in the aircraft, not in the designer/builder 

efforts in design. It takes much thinking to design a really simple and 

reliable aircraft system.

Popular aviation would really benefit from carefully engineered and 

crafted systems : I recently had to troubleshoot a poorly wired 

ultralight (not a Sky). Really poor craftsmanship from the importer...



 	  Quote: 	
		   I like them more on GA airplanes with their 60 -100 amp circuits with 

 retractable gear,  lights, dog polishers and window foggers.


	


))

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 ..... Of course a short can cause a fire but there must be 

 combustables nearby and the insulation must be combustable.  Otherwise 

 a brief arc, a brief smell and it is all over.


	




Yeah, that's what is often experienced in ultralights. Sparcs and arcs, 

and flat batteries. Auto PVC spaghetti wire everywhere, control cables 

and rods rubbing against structure (yes sir, even on Sky Rangers)

The reputation of sloppy craftsmanship is unfortunately sometimes 

deserved...

If I happened to buy an aircraft and experienced even the briefest of 

arc ans smell, I'd have some 'interesting' discussion with the seller...



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 If a starter solenoid actually stuck, it will just keep turning the 

 engine untill the battery power is drained or the starter melts 

 down.   While disconcerting, it would happen on the ground and be over 

 quickly.   No so if your master solenoid craps out in the air.  You 

 lose radios, EIS,  intercom,  flaps and whatever else you power. 


	


You really would shed circuit protection and good wiring practice just 

for fear of losing flaps when turning the master off ? Would no flaps on 

a Sky Ranger really be a problem ?

BTW, in a car, you also lose many thing when turning the keyswitch off.



Have you considered subscribing to the Aeroelectric List on Matronics ?  

Much interesting matters, and opportunity to discuss electrical options 

much more in-depth



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

Hi Gilles,



The new Light Sport Airplane rule in the USA allows for either 

day/VFR or Night and/or IFR operations.  Of course, there are extra 

equipment requirements for night or IFR operations.  It is the Sport 

Pilot rule that limits pilots (rather than aircraft) to day/VFR 

operations.  The much older "Ultralight" in the USA is not worthy of 

any serious flight including daytime.  I don't think anyone would 

consider flying one of those "Flying lawn chairs" at night.  Those 

"Ultralights" are limited to one seat, 5 gallons of fuel, maximum 

empty weight of 254 pounds, and a maximum cruise speed around 60 mph.



I have been following your discussion of the need for the master 

contactor on an airplane.  I remain unconvinced either way about the 

need for this device.  It is relatively clear it can be used to deal 

with in-flight fires, and it also might be used to make sure all 

equipment is really off when the plane is finished for the day.



If there is a switch installed on the battery circuit for all devices 

except the starter, then normal sized wiring and switch could be 

used.  This approach would use a solenoid for the starter connected 

in parallel to the battery.  The only obvious risk with this approach 

is that the starter solenoid gets stuck or activated without the 

pilot's desire.  This seems unlikely and un-harmful even if it does occur.



Perhaps I am missing something important.  It seems that the expense 

in cost, weight, and electrical load imposed by the master contactor 

is only there to deal with the unlikely problem of a run-away starter solenoid.



Paul

Zodiac XL builder - nearing completion of fuselage



 	  Quote: 	
		  I suppose that in the USA, ultralights only fly day VFR ?

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

In a message dated 12/9/2006 10:44:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,  Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Have    you considered subscribing to the Aeroelectric List on Matronics ?     

Much interesting matters, and opportunity to discuss electrical options    

much more in-depth



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

	


 

  

 Good thoughts on your Previous post, Gilles.

  

 I have to have some restrictions on my subscribing.   I am  already on 5 or 6!.  

  

 I will think about it tho.  Perhaps you are trying to gently tell me  my ignorance is showing!!!

  

 Doug

  [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 I will think about it tho.  Perhaps you are trying to gently tell me 

 my ignorance is showing!!!


	


Doug,



I just reviewed the latest diagrams on the Aeroelectric Connection, and 

you know what ?

There is a suggestion for a simple Jabiru or Rotax circuit with NO 

battery contactor !



So dispensing with the battery contactor in a simple circuit might not 

appear so much of a problem after all...

My apologies for being so affirmative before checking everything.



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr



 	  Quote:

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