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Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch

 
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randy(at)romeolima.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Fiberglass gurus,

After trying to get the metal skirt to fit on my RV-3 I'm giving up -- I'm
convinced God just didn't intend aluminum to be used for compound curves,
fiberglass on the other hand is perfectly suited for that. No worries with
laying it up and such (West Systems and 9 oz crowfoot e-glass), but what I'd
appreciate some ideas on are how to craft a molding surface. I will pop
rivet my tipover plexi bubble to the frame in every other hole, which I will
later drill out, so there won't need to be an clecos and thus I can layup
onto the plexi. But what do I use to create a form from the plexi down to
the fuselage, or to bridge the gap along the sides? This is way too much
area for the traditional modeling clay we use for intersection fairings.

If I use any sort of tape it will create an uneven layup and require lots of
sanding and filling, something I'd rather avoid. I was thinking of using
expandable foam around the front and rear sections (won't work on the sides)
and then sculpting it. Seems like I heard that the cans of foam you can buy
at Home Depot aren't good because they contain formaldehyde, not sure why
that's bad though.
Spruce has Poly-Cell 100 Polyurethane Foam
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/polycel.php
and Liquid "X30" Foam
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/x30foam.php

Anyone had an experience with either of these? When using foam, do you lay
up directly on it, or coat it with something first?

And lastly, what would be a good way to create a surface on the sides?
Here's a pic of what I'm dealing with...
http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/Gallery/DSC_0899.jpg

Thanks!
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
www.rv-8.com


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lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Randy,

Check this out... www.rvpilot.com/RV9ACanopy/CanopyIndexPart2.htm

Darrell

do not archive



Randy Lervold <randy(at)romeolima.com> wrote:


Fiberglass gurus,

After trying to get the metal skirt to fit on my RV-3 I'm giving up -- I'm
convinced God just didn't intend aluminum to be used for compound curves,
fiberglass on the other hand is perfectly suited for that. No worries with
laying it up and such (West Systems and 9 oz crowfoot e-glass), but what I'd
appreciate some ideas on are how to craft a molding surface. I will pop
rivet my tipover plexi bubble to the frame in every other hole, which I will
later drill out, so there won't need to be an clecos and thus I can layup
onto the plexi. But what do I use to create a form from the plexi down to
the fuselage, or to bridge the gap along the sides? This is way too much
area for the traditional modeling clay we use for intersection fairings.

If I use any sort of tape it will create an uneven layup and require lots of
sanding and filling, something I'd rather avoid. I was thinking of using
expandable foam around the front and rear sections (won't work on the sides)
and then sculpting it. Seems like I heard that the cans of foam you can buy
at Home Depot aren't good because they contain formaldehyde, not sure why
that's bad though.
Spruce has Poly-Cell 100 Polyurethane Foam
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/polycel.php
and Liquid "X30" Foam
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/x30foam.php

Anyone had an experience with either of these? When using foam, do you lay
up directly on it, or coat it with something first?

And lastly, what would be a good way to create a surface on the sides?
Here's a pic of what I'm dealing with...
http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/Gallery/DSC_0899.jpg

Thanks!
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
www.rv-8.com




"Do Not Archive"

Darrell Reiley

RV7A "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved





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kboatright1(at)comcast.ne
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

You could try tapeing thin cardboard between the canopy and fuselage. My
cardboard of preference (from making the empennage fairing years ago) comes
from Diet Coke 12-pack cartons...

Several pieces of cardboard, a little packing tape, and volia, female
mold...

Alternately, you could get yourself some Monokote or similar shrink film,
cut it to rough shape, tape the ends to the plexi and fuselage, and shrink
the stuff into the shape you want. Might even work. (Note- put a layer of
packing tape between the monokote and your canopy, or risk color
transfer)...

KB
---


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flyeyes(at)mac.com
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

On Jan 30, 2006, at 5:21 PM, Randy Lervold wrote:

Quote:


Fiberglass gurus,

(snip)

Umm not really a fiberglass guru, but I think I can help here.
Quote:
Spruce has Poly-Cell 100 Polyurethane Foam
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/polycel.php
and Liquid "X30" Foam
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/x30foam.php

Anyone had an experience with either of these? When using foam, do
you lay
up directly on it, or coat it with something first?

I recently helped someone do a _lot_ of fiberglass work on an RV-8,
and the X30 foam completely rocks. We mixed it in small cups ( like
you would have next to a drinking fountain) by filling each cup about
40%, and pouring back and forth until the foam started to kick off,
then pouring it onto the work surface. In 10 minutes it's ready to
file or sand, or even add more foam. It's not possible to make a
mistake you can't fix in 15 minutes. The foam is kind of porous, so
we covered it with strips of carefully laid duct tape as a release
after getting the surface we wanted.

This is the method I'm planning to use to redo my tail fairing, which
has "bumps" between the fasteners.

The local EZ guys seemed to approve of our method, although they did
seem somewhat amused by our slow pace...

James Freeman
Quote:

And lastly, what would be a good way to create a surface on the sides?
Here's a pic of what I'm dealing with...
http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/Gallery/DSC_0899.jpg

Thanks!
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
www.rv-8.com




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alexpeterson(at)earthlink
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Quote:


Fiberglass gurus,

Well, that I'm not. Is it possible to simply drape a single, lightweight
strip across the gap? Let it cure and then build on that? One might have
to go along every so often and give it a nip or tuck as it cures, but it
might work. Pay attention to the bias of the weave, I'm not sure what would
be best in this case.

Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN


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Jerry Grimmonpre'



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Some builder made a form out of his wife's panty hose and stretched the
material over the gear leg to create fairings. A release agent would have
to be used where you don't want the stuff to grab.
My 1 cent worth ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'

Is it possible to simply drape a single, lightweight
Quote:
strip across the gap? Let it cure and then build on that? One might have
to go along every so often and give it a nip or tuck as it cures, but it
might work. Pay attention to the bias of the weave, I'm not sure what
would
be best in this case.


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truflite(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Kyle,

I like the monokote idea. A couple of thoughts to
expand on this.

Monokote has a very glossy finish. The resin may
still stick to the Monokote. Use mold release wax on
the Monokote followed with PVA mold release. Spray
multiple LIGHT coats of PVA onto the Monokote. PVA
has a tendency to bead up when sprayed over the wax.
Multiple light coats help eliminate the beading. When
finished, the the piece will pop off the Monokote much
easier.

Acetone removes the pigment/adhesive used on Monokote.
Unless the surface beneath the Monokote is reactive
to acetone, put some acetone on a rag and wipe the
surface clean. Obviously, use proper ventilation and
protective safety gear.

BTW, PVA is PolyVinyl Alcohol. Any good fiberglass
supplier will stock this item.

Dave
--- Kyle Boatright <kboatright1(at)comcast.net> wrote:

[quote]
<kboatright1(at)comcast.net>

You could try tapeing thin cardboard between the
canopy and fuselage. My
cardboard of preference (from making the empennage
fairing years ago) comes
from Diet Coke 12-pack cartons...

Several pieces of cardboard, a little packing tape,
and volia, female
mold...

Alternately, you could get yourself some Monokote or
similar shrink film,
cut it to rough shape, tape the ends to the plexi
and fuselage, and shrink
the stuff into the shape you want. Might even work.
(Note- put a layer of
packing tape between the monokote and your canopy,
or risk color
transfer)...

KB


---


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mstewart(at)iss.net
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Posterboard and packing tape?
Chicken wire and packing tape?

Mike
Do not archive
--


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randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Guys, the Monokote idea might just work well, and I have a couple of rolls
laying around. What is Monokote actually made of, and is there a chance that
epoxy resin won't stick to it? Also, how well can you control what/where it
adheres? And lastly, how tough is it to get off, the plexi in particular?

Anyone have more experience with it?

Randy

Quote:


Kyle,

I like the monokote idea. A couple of thoughts to
expand on this.

Monokote has a very glossy finish. The resin may
still stick to the Monokote. Use mold release wax on
the Monokote followed with PVA mold release. Spray
multiple LIGHT coats of PVA onto the Monokote. PVA
has a tendency to bead up when sprayed over the wax.
Multiple light coats help eliminate the beading. When
finished, the the piece will pop off the Monokote much
easier.

Acetone removes the pigment/adhesive used on Monokote.
Unless the surface beneath the Monokote is reactive
to acetone, put some acetone on a rag and wipe the
surface clean. Obviously, use proper ventilation and
protective safety gear.

BTW, PVA is PolyVinyl Alcohol. Any good fiberglass
supplier will stock this item.

Dave
--- Kyle Boatright <kboatright1(at)comcast.net> wrote:

>
> <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
>
> You could try tapeing thin cardboard between the
> canopy and fuselage. My
> cardboard of preference (from making the empennage
> fairing years ago) comes
> from Diet Coke 12-pack cartons...
>
> Several pieces of cardboard, a little packing tape,
> and volia, female
> mold...
>
> Alternately, you could get yourself some Monokote or
> similar shrink film,
> cut it to rough shape, tape the ends to the plexi
> and fuselage, and shrink
> the stuff into the shape you want. Might even work.
> (Note- put a layer of
> packing tape between the monokote and your canopy,
> or risk color
> transfer)...
>
> KB


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truflite(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Randy,

Monokote is a plastic film used to cover model
aircraft. It is heatshrinkable and has a heat
activated adhesive which is also the pigment.

First off, DO NOT adhere Monokote to plexi!!!!! I
have just started my project and I am not totally
familiar with the canopy area. After reading the
posts regarding this, I was thinking that their was an
area on the fuselage at the canopy that was used as a
mold. I would only attach Monokote to bare metal or
to a surface that is NOT reactive to acetone or dope
thinner. Do not under any circumstances use acetone
or dope thinner on plexi.

If Monokote is the way you want to go, consider the
following. Buy a Monokote iron from a hobby shop,
about $20. Follow the directions therein. When
attaching, only seal the edges down. When shrinking
the rest, do not press down on the iron. Let the
weight of the iron do the work. Shrink the Monokote
till all wrinkles are gone. Make your layups with
suitable mold release products.

Upon removal, you will find some of the Monokote will
have adhered to sealed edge areas and quite possibly
the center as well. Use acetone or dope thinner in a
clean rag with proper ventilation and safety equipment
to remove the adhered Monokote.

You will find the inside of your lamination to be
glass smooth which I would lightly sand to break the
glaze. Use
your favorite adhesive to attach the skirt to
the canopy.

I have used Monokote to cover model aircraft for 30
years and for mold making because it makes a smooth
surface without a great deal of work.

One last thought, if you put Monokote on the plexi,
only put it on the area that would be under the skirt.
To remove it from the plexi, use a small orbital
sander with a fine grit paper. I am guessing that you
would need to rough this surface up anyways. I
re-iterate, do not use solvents on the plexi.

Dave
--- Randy Lervold <randy(at)romeolima.com> wrote:

Quote:

<randy(at)romeolima.com>

Guys, the Monokote idea might just work well, and I
have a couple of rolls
laying around. What is Monokote actually made of,
and is there a chance that
epoxy resin won't stick to it? Also, how well can
you control what/where it
adheres? And lastly, how tough is it to get off, the
plexi in particular?

Anyone have more experience with it?

Randy



>
<truflite(at)yahoo.com>
>
> Kyle,
>
> I like the monokote idea. A couple of thoughts to
> expand on this.
>
> Monokote has a very glossy finish. The resin may
> still stick to the Monokote. Use mold release wax
on
> the Monokote followed with PVA mold release.
Spray
> multiple LIGHT coats of PVA onto the Monokote.
PVA
> has a tendency to bead up when sprayed over the
wax.
> Multiple light coats help eliminate the beading.
When
> finished, the the piece will pop off the Monokote
much
> easier.
>
> Acetone removes the pigment/adhesive used on
Monokote.
> Unless the surface beneath the Monokote is
reactive
> to acetone, put some acetone on a rag and wipe the
> surface clean. Obviously, use proper ventilation
and
> protective safety gear.
>
> BTW, PVA is PolyVinyl Alcohol. Any good
fiberglass
> supplier will stock this item.
>
> Dave
>
>
> --- Kyle Boatright <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
wrote:
>
>>
>> <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
>>
>> You could try tapeing thin cardboard between the
>> canopy and fuselage. My
>> cardboard of preference (from making the
empennage
>> fairing years ago) comes
>> from Diet Coke 12-pack cartons...
>>
>> Several pieces of cardboard, a little packing
tape,
>> and volia, female
>> mold...
>>
>> Alternately, you could get yourself some Monokote
or
>> similar shrink film,
>> cut it to rough shape, tape the ends to the plexi
>> and fuselage, and shrink
>> the stuff into the shape you want. Might even
work.
>> (Note- put a layer of
>> packing tape between the monokote and your
canopy,
>> or risk color
>> transfer)...
>>
>> KB





browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,

Admin.













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skylor4(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

One suggestion for Monokote:

Top Flight makes clear Monokote that doesn't have any
pigment in the adhesive (at least they did 20 years
ago, when I was really into models). This way, if any
adhesive gets onto the plexi, at least it's clear and
won't be very visible...

I know for a fact that Aerovironment uses Monokote or
similar coverings to cover some of their molds that
they shape from foam, so this concept should work just
fine.

Skylor
RV-8QB
Under Construction

--- Dave Nellis <truflite(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

<truflite(at)yahoo.com>

Randy,

Monokote is a plastic film used to cover model
aircraft. It is heatshrinkable and has a heat
activated adhesive which is also the pigment.

First off, DO NOT adhere Monokote to plexi!!!!! I
have just started my project and I am not totally
familiar with the canopy area. After reading the
posts regarding this, I was thinking that their was
an
area on the fuselage at the canopy that was used as
a
mold. I would only attach Monokote to bare metal or
to a surface that is NOT reactive to acetone or dope
thinner. Do not under any circumstances use acetone
or dope thinner on plexi.

If Monokote is the way you want to go, consider the
following. Buy a Monokote iron from a hobby shop,
about $20. Follow the directions therein. When
attaching, only seal the edges down. When shrinking
the rest, do not press down on the iron. Let the
weight of the iron do the work. Shrink the Monokote
till all wrinkles are gone. Make your layups with
suitable mold release products.

Upon removal, you will find some of the Monokote
will
have adhered to sealed edge areas and quite possibly
the center as well. Use acetone or dope thinner in
a
clean rag with proper ventilation and safety
equipment
to remove the adhered Monokote.

You will find the inside of your lamination to be
glass smooth which I would lightly sand to break the
glaze. Use

your favorite adhesive to attach the skirt to
the canopy.

I have used Monokote to cover model aircraft for 30
years and for mold making because it makes a smooth
surface without a great deal of work.

One last thought, if you put Monokote on the plexi,
only put it on the area that would be under the
skirt.
To remove it from the plexi, use a small orbital
sander with a fine grit paper. I am guessing that
you
would need to rough this surface up anyways. I
re-iterate, do not use solvents on the plexi.

Dave


--- Randy Lervold <randy(at)romeolima.com> wrote:

>
> <randy(at)romeolima.com>
>
> Guys, the Monokote idea might just work well, and
I
> have a couple of rolls
> laying around. What is Monokote actually made of,
> and is there a chance that
> epoxy resin won't stick to it? Also, how well can
> you control what/where it
> adheres? And lastly, how tough is it to get off,
the
> plexi in particular?
>
> Anyone have more experience with it?
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> >
> <truflite(at)yahoo.com>
> >
> > Kyle,
> >
> > I like the monokote idea. A couple of thoughts
to
> > expand on this.
> >
> > Monokote has a very glossy finish. The resin
may
> > still stick to the Monokote. Use mold release
wax
> on
> > the Monokote followed with PVA mold release.
> Spray
> > multiple LIGHT coats of PVA onto the Monokote.
> PVA
> > has a tendency to bead up when sprayed over the
> wax.
> > Multiple light coats help eliminate the beading.

> When
> > finished, the the piece will pop off the
Monokote
> much
> > easier.
> >
> > Acetone removes the pigment/adhesive used on
> Monokote.
> > Unless the surface beneath the Monokote is
> reactive
> > to acetone, put some acetone on a rag and wipe
the
> > surface clean. Obviously, use proper
ventilation
> and
> > protective safety gear.
> >
> > BTW, PVA is PolyVinyl Alcohol. Any good
> fiberglass
> > supplier will stock this item.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > --- Kyle Boatright <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
> >>
> >> You could try tapeing thin cardboard between
the
> >> canopy and fuselage. My
> >> cardboard of preference (from making the
> empennage
> >> fairing years ago) comes
> >> from Diet Coke 12-pack cartons...
> >>
> >> Several pieces of cardboard, a little packing
> tape,
> >> and volia, female
> >> mold...
> >>
> >> Alternately, you could get yourself some
Monokote
> or
> >> similar shrink film,
> >> cut it to rough shape, tape the ends to the
plexi
> >> and fuselage, and shrink
> >> the stuff into the shape you want. Might even
> work.
> >> (Note- put a layer of
> >> packing tape between the monokote and your
> canopy,
> >> or risk color
> >> transfer)...
> >>
> >> KB
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






browse
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Dale Ensing



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Randy,
My memory from RC days tells me that Monokote is made from Mylar.
Another thing.........As you probably know, when you shrink it the profile will be that of a straight lines between two points. In other words, unless all points on the perimeter of the Monokote are in the same flat plane the surface will be a compound curve. The canopy skirts on an RV-3 do not appear to be a flat. Think of what Monokote looks like on an unsheeted RC wing with the recessed areas between the ribs.
Dale Ensing


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Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC
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rv8iator(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:06 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Randy...

Monokote and all the other model coverings are polyester film or woven polyester fiber. Polyester resin will stick to the film but will not bond to it. Definitely use mold release. There are also clear films available that are used as commercial masking film. Some of these I believe are Mylar.

Hope this helps...

Chris Stone
Newberg, OR
2x RV8
--


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randy(at)romeolima.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Quote:
Monokote and all the other model coverings are polyester film or woven
polyester fiber. Polyester resin will stick to the film but will not bond
to it. Definitely use mold release. There are also clear films available
that are used as commercial masking film. Some of these I believe are
Mylar.

Hope this helps...

Chris Stone
Newberg, OR
2x RV8

Chris (or anyone), will epoxy stick to it? I'll be laying up with West
Systems.

Thanks,
Randy


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hawk(at)digisys.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Chris,
Just a note for people who might be contemplating using polyester resin for
their windshield and canopy fairings... there are many entries in the
archives warning of damage to the canopy plastic when in contact with even
tiny amounts of the polyester resin components, or even the fumes. It would
seem to be much safer to use epoxy based systems in these areas.

Hawkeye Hughes
Polson MT Skyote, RV-3
---


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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Polyester resins typical have styrene as a solvent carrier. Styrene
will melt plexiglass. Epoxies do not have styrene content.

Chuck Jensen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Here is something else. Polyester hardens and appears
to cure, but it never fully cures. It is always
chemically active. With age, polyester will change
shape as it cures. Heat will accelerate this curing
and shape changing. I have used polyester in model
aircraft cowls and have noticed flared edges and once
flat surfaces are now wavy. I now only use epoxy for
any layup.

Dave Nellis
--- REHughes <hawk(at)digisys.net> wrote:

[quote]
<hawk(at)digisys.net>

Chris,
Just a note for people who might be contemplating
using polyester resin for
their windshield and canopy fairings... there are
many entries in the
archives warning of damage to the canopy plastic
when in contact with even
tiny amounts of the polyester resin components, or
even the fumes. It would
seem to be much safer to use epoxy based systems in
these areas.

Hawkeye Hughes
Polson MT Skyote, RV-3


---


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Bruce(at)glasair.org
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Phoey!!! Polyester will continue to shrink, vynalester will not, epoxy fumes
can kill you.

Bruce
www.glasair.org


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Fiberglass canopy skirt from scratch Reply with quote

Randy et al...

The short answer is yes... But again it will not form a molecular bond only superficial adhesive bond. I would still recommend a mold release agent.

cs
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