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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Oops!

. . . and you thought failure to drop the wheels on your

Bonanza was expensive! See:



http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html





        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

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rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Oops!

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  . . . and you thought failure to drop the wheels on your

 Bonanza was expensive! See:

 

 http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html

 


	


Ugh.  That's a good way to avoid getting promoted.

-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

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_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Oops!

Voice Recorder...



Landing Checklist Complete?  Check.   Ohhhhh, myyyyy.

They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity

which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and

locked.  I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even

fax them a wiring diagram!



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: Oops!

At 04:55 PM 12/24/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Voice Recorder...



Landing Checklist Complete?  Check.   Ohhhhh, myyyyy.

They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity

which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and

locked.  I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even

fax them a wiring diagram!


	


    Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of

    these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage

    once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings."

    In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around

    the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses,

    third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt

    learned opinions.



    If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as

    to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be

    surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous

    systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings.

    But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains

    a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training

    in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when

    you've already had the (at)!#$(at)# scared out of you by a series

    of events that many would not have survived . . . and that

    itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe.



    We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be

    zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will

    be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many

    of life's most valuable lessons die with the students.



    Bob . . .

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Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Oops!

I get to fly with a friend in his Cessna 182 on amphibious floats quite

often. He keeps it in a hangar at an airport, so most of the time we takeoff

and land on a runway. One of the serious concerns with flying an amphibious

airplane is landing gear-down on the water, or less serious, gear up on a

runway. His airplane has a voice gear warning system that comes on when you

reduce airspeed to a certain point where the warning will say "Gear is DOWN

for a runway landing" or "Gear is UP for a water landing". My friend has

developed the habit of punching off the warning the minute it starts. We

came VERY close to landing gear-up on a runway a week or so ago. He was

concentrating on the landing and automatically punched off the warning the

instant it started, out of habit and without thinking about what it was

telling him. Fortunately he had also developed the habit of looking for four

green lights by the gear handle just before touch-down and caught it in

time. Me, I was concentrating on his landing and might have missed it right

up until the sound of aluminum scraping on asphalt. 



It also is possible to READ a checklist instead of USING a checklist.



Terry

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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: Oops!

Terry,



Bob N.'s earlier reply that there may well have been a mechanical or

electrical problem that prevented gear extension on the B1-B.  One would

think by the time the pilot and crew moves up the ranks to be authorized

to fly a quarter-billion dollar bomber, that they'd have learned to use,

not just read the checklist.  Then again, despite the training,

experience and expertise, we are still dealing with humans here, so who

knows?



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

 

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Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Oops!

You are right, of course, Chuck. I didn't intend to imply that my experience

had anything to do with the B1-B incident, except that sometimes the most

obvious warnings and alarms can get relegated to background noise when we

develop bad habits or become distracted. My guess is that almost every

gear-up landing has been made with one or more alarms sounding within sight

or hearing of the pilot but outside of his attention, thus the "sterile

cockpit" environment that many insist on during critical phases of flight. I

think there is a tendency among some for a rote but almost unconscious use

of checklists on occasion. Wasn't this landing at the end of a particularly

long ferry flight? I read somewhere recently that research on sleepy drivers

and drivers using cellphones suggest that both more dangerous than drunk

drivers. We can assume that these B1-B pilots were exceptionally well

trained professionals, but for some reason the gear was up when they landed.



Terry

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Oops!

At 09:53 AM 12/26/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Those pictures of the B-1 gear up landing went around the "military 

circuit" several months ago.  My understanding is that the crew was fully 

aware the gear were up and spent a long time trying to get it down.  When 

all emergency modes failed, they made an on-purpose gear up landing with 

emergency crews standing by.  The military stopped foaming the runway for 

landings such as this quite a few years ago: Just makes the airplane slide 

farther and it's better to have the firefighting foam still in the truck 

to fight any fire that breaks out after landing than on the runway way 

behind you.


	


   Interesting. At Cessna, we didn't foam the runway, we wet the grass.

   There was a large field east of the Pawnee plant that was planted in

   grass. The one gear up landing I got to watch was during our O-2A 

development

   days when the test pilot had to recover an aircraft that would not

   extend the gear. They sprayed the grass down. I don't think they went

   back to refill the trucks . . . nobody expected any fire.



   The C337 had keel structure designed to tolerate such abuse.

   As I recall, the airplane was flying the next day with a couple

   of new belly skins and two new antennas.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The captions I saw said the aircraft was not seriously damaged.



Not to say military crews never make mistakes, they do of course (lots of 

them, but then they have a lot to do), but this is the kind of stuff where 

they really earn their money. Anyone can fly the airplane when everything 

is working right.


	


   Lee, thank you for helping out with "the rest of the story".



        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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