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Riveting curved skin surface

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dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

We are having some difficulty riveting the curved area of the side skin where it meets the belly skin on the RV-10 tailcone. We have too many rivet heads that are sitting "proud" and will have to be drilled out. Looking for any tips or techniques.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

David, when possible, rivet using the back rivet tool rather than the flush 

tool.  I know you cannot back rivet them all however.



The key to a perfect rivet is to hold the rivet gun head on the rivet 

perfectly square and have the bucker who is on the other side maintain just 

enough pressure to keep the bucking bar on the shop side of the rivet so the 

rivet is not pushed out while bucking.  When back riveting the bucker must 

keep the bar perfectly square to the rivet with sufficient pressure to not 

get pushed out of the hole by the riveter.  Do not be afraid of drilling out 

bad rivets if they truly deserve it, but consider using a rivet shaver or 

small file or roto sander to gently remove the high spots.  You will want 

the high spots and high edges eliminated when you go to painting and wet 

sanding if you expect a good even paint job.  Are you sure you have properly 

dimpled the problem areas?  Also, when riveting to be sure the rivet will 

sit down fully in the hole before putting the gun to it.  If not, use a 

gently turn or three with a countersinking tool over the dimpled hole.



Best wishes, Larry in Indiana



---

wskimike(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

You need to use a smaller set on your rivet gun. Make sure you practice with

it because if you let it move around, you will have a dent in the skin.



Mike Harris

---

J5Cub

Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 6

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

Larry,



Do you know if it is possible/acceptable to back rivet the turtle deck

or would it be better to rivet the conventional way?  I am going to be

ordering the fastback for my QB RV8 fuselage and since I did not rivet

the original deck I thought I would ask how it is normally done.



Thanks,

Greg



LarryRobertHelming wrote on 12/30/2006, 8:11 AM:



 > 

 > <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>

 >

 > David, when possible, rivet using the back rivet tool rather than the

 > flush

 > tool.  I know you cannot back rivet them all however.

 >

 > The key to a perfect rivet is to hold the rivet gun head on the rivet

 > perfectly square and have the bucker who is on the other side maintain

 > just

 > enough pressure to keep the bucking bar on the shop side of the rivet

 > so the

 > rivet is not pushed out while bucking.  When back riveting the bucker

 > must

 > keep the bar perfectly square to the rivet with sufficient pressure to

 > not

 > get pushed out of the hole by the riveter.  Do not be afraid of

 > drilling out

 > bad rivets if they truly deserve it, but consider using a rivet shaver or

 > small file or roto sander to gently remove the high spots.  You will want

 > the high spots and high edges eliminated when you go to painting and wet

 > sanding if you expect a good even paint job.  Are you sure you have

 > properly

 > dimpled the problem areas?  Also, when riveting to be sure the rivet will

 > sit down fully in the hole before putting the gun to it.  If not, use a

 > gently turn or three with a countersinking tool over the dimpled hole.

 >

 > Best wishes, Larry in Indiana

 >

 > ---

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

It is acceptable to back rivet the turtle deck.  The key to doing it 

successfully is being able to get to the shop side of the rivets pretty much 

square on.  I have two back rivet tools.  One has a black spring thingy on 

it that helps keep the head on the rivet.  The other is a longer tool that 

is all steel and has a slight bend in one end.  I got both from Avery tools. 

With a bit of effort I could get you a part number is you think you need it. 

The longer tool is primarily designed for back riveting the top of the 

wings.



You should have no trouble being able to use the one with the spring in it 

for the turtle deck.  The advantage to back riveting is it helps prevent 

slight indentations on the out side.  When you drive the gun from the 

outside, you are pushing in and if a slight gap is between the skin and the 

bulkhead you will bet the slight indentation.  Applying the power of the 

blow from the inside out helps push the flange on the bulkhead to the skin 

to get it flush.  Better finish will be accomplished with careful bending of 

the bulkhead flanges to get them perfectly angled to fit the angle of the 

finished skin before you drill and rivet.



Hope this helps.  Let me know if you need more info.  Glad to help.



Larry in Indiana



---

J5Cub

Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 6

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

Larry,

Thanks for the advice. I have a back riveting tool that has a spring 

loaded cage that surrounds the shop head, sounds similar to what you 

have.  I had hoped others had back riveted the turtle deck sucessfully 

as I have limited help and putting someone inside with the bucking bar 

might be more than I could hope for.  I have help that would do fine 

outside.



Regards,

Greg

LarryRobertHelming wrote on 12/30/2006, 6:23 PM:



 > 

 > <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>

 >

 > It is acceptable to back rivet the turtle deck.  The key to doing it

 > successfully is being able to get to the shop side of the rivets

 > pretty much

 > square on.  I have two back rivet tools.  One has a black spring

 > thingy on

 > it that helps keep the head on the rivet.  The other is a longer tool

 > that

 > is all steel and has a slight bend in one end.  I got both from Avery

 > tools.

 > With a bit of effort I could get you a part number is you think you

 > need it.

 > The longer tool is primarily designed for back riveting the top of the

 > wings.

 >

 > You should have no trouble being able to use the one with the spring

 > in it

 > for the turtle deck.  The advantage to back riveting is it helps prevent

 > slight indentations on the out side.  When you drive the gun from the

 > outside, you are pushing in and if a slight gap is between the skin

 > and the

 > bulkhead you will bet the slight indentation.  Applying the power of the

 > blow from the inside out helps push the flange on the bulkhead to the

 > skin

 > to get it flush.  Better finish will be accomplished with careful

 > bending of

 > the bulkhead flanges to get them perfectly angled to fit the angle of the

 > finished skin before you drill and rivet.

 >

 > Hope this helps.  Let me know if you need more info.  Glad to help.

 >

 > Larry in Indiana

 >

 > ---

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

Vince and Larry,



Thanks for the tips. We had much better luck today. It seems that we were both pushing way too hard on the bucking bar. That, coupled with making sure the rivet heads were sitting flush in the dimples, took care of the problem. We pretty much finished the tailcone today without any more problems.

Thanks again. This list is priceless.



David Maib

RV-10 #40559

Tailcone



Do Not Archive

Here is what I did for this area on my RV8:

1. Don't use the swivel rivet head, use the fixed head that you may or not

have received with your rivet gun. The fixed rivet head is easier to

control, won't slip off, and hits just the rivet.

2. In addition to dimpling, you will have to slightly counter sink the

dimpled holes with the deburring tool or the counter sink tool. I am

assuming these are flush rivet holes that you used a dimple tool (like in

Avery) to create the dimple.

Reason for going a little deeper is that the dimpling tool does a good job,

but I found that in weird areas, curves, and thick skins, I had to slightly

countersink the wholes to get a truly flush fit.

For experiment, dimple a piece of scrap, put in a flush rivet and observe

the fit. Next use the deburring tool to deepen the dimple slightly. Insert

the flush rivet and you will see that it sits better in the hole.

This technique is especially helpful on the thicker skins.

Hope this helps,

Vince H.

RV8 - Finish



On Dec 30, 2006, at 7:11 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:

--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net (lhelming(at)sigecom.net)>

David, when possible, rivet using the back rivet tool rather than the flush tool.  I know you cannot back rivet them all however.

The key to a perfect rivet is to hold the rivet gun head on the rivet perfectly square and have the bucker who is on the other side maintain just enough pressure to keep the bucking bar on the shop side of the rivet so the rivet is not pushed out while bucking.  When back riveting the bucker must keep the bar perfectly square to the rivet with sufficient pressure to not get pushed out of the hole by the riveter.  Do not be afraid of drilling out bad rivets if they truly deserve it, but consider using a rivet shaver or small file or roto sander to gently remove the high spots.  You will want the high spots and high edges eliminated when you go to painting and wet sanding if you expect a good even paint job.  Are you sure you have properly dimpled the problem areas?  Also, when riveting to be sure the rivet will sit down fully in the hole before putting the gun to it.  If not, use a gently turn or three with a countersinking tool over the dimpled hole.

Best wishes, Larry in Indiana

---

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

steve(at)newtech.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

Hi Greg,

Larry is right.  I was the one inside the tail cone while Larry was 

bucking on the outside.  The spring loaded back rivet tool works great 

on the turtle deck.  I used the longer one, Larry described for wing 

use, when we riveted the upside down canoe.  Should have used the spring 

loaded one as I smashed some interior smilies into the skins.



This is a fun time, it is where it starts looking like an airplane.



Steve Eberhart

RV-7A, just mounted the stabilizer, hangar mate of "Indiana Larry"

http://www.newtech.com/n14se/P1010326.JPG



Greg Papendick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Larry,

 Thanks for the advice. I have a back riveting tool that has a spring 

 loaded cage that surrounds the shop head, sounds similar to what you 

 have.  I had hoped others had back riveted the turtle deck sucessfully 

 as I have limited help and putting someone inside with the bucking bar 

 might be more than I could hope for.  I have help that would do fine 

 outside.



 Regards,

 Greg

 LarryRobertHelming wrote on 12/30/2006, 6:23 PM:



  > 

  > <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>

  >

  > It is acceptable to back rivet the turtle deck.  The key to doing it

  > successfully is being able to get to the shop side of the rivets

  > pretty much

  > square on.  I have two back rivet tools.  One has a black spring

  > thingy on

  > it that helps keep the head on the rivet.  The other is a longer tool

  > that

  > is all steel and has a slight bend in one end.  I got both from Avery

  > tools.

  > With a bit of effort I could get you a part number is you think you

  > need it.

  > The longer tool is primarily designed for back riveting the top of the

  > wings.

  >

  > You should have no trouble being able to use the one with the spring

  > in it

  > for the turtle deck.  The advantage to back riveting is it helps prevent

  > slight indentations on the out side.  When you drive the gun from the

  > outside, you are pushing in and if a slight gap is between the skin

  > and the

  > bulkhead you will bet the slight indentation.  Applying the power of the

  > blow from the inside out helps push the flange on the bulkhead to the

  > skin

  > to get it flush.  Better finish will be accomplished with careful

  > bending of

  > the bulkhead flanges to get them perfectly angled to fit the angle of the

  > finished skin before you drill and rivet.

  >

  > Hope this helps.  Let me know if you need more info.  Glad to help.

  >

  > Larry in Indiana

dfischer(at)iserv.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

Has anybody used fuel tank dimple dies for this  area in lieu of countersinking every hole?

  

 Doug Fischer

 Jenison, MI

 -9A Wings

 [quote]   ---

rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

Doug,

 Yes, I did use tank dimple dies. The rationale was that they allowed for the ProSeal under the rivets. The result was good though I don't have any comparison with the normal dimple dies.

 Regards,

 Richard Dudley

 -6A flying

 

 Doug Fischer wrote:

 [quote]            Has anybody used fuel tank dimple dies for this area in lieu of countersinking every hole?

    

   Doug Fischer

   Jenison, MI

   -9A Wings

   [quote]     ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     David Maib (dmaib(at)mac.com)     

     To:     rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)     

     Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:20 PM

     Subject: Re: Riveting curved skin surface

     

     

     Vince and Larry,

          

     Thanks for the tips. We had much better luck today. It seems that we were both pushing way too hard on the bucking bar. That, coupled with making sure the rivet heads were sitting flush in the dimples, took care of the problem. We pretty much finished the tailcone today without any more problems.

     Thanks again. This list is priceless.

          

     David Maib

     RV-10 #40559

     Tailcone

          

     Do Not Archive

          

          

     Here is what I did for this area on my RV8:

     

     

     1. Don't use the swivel rivet head, use the fixed head that you may or not

     have received with your rivet gun. The fixed rivet head is easier to

     control, won't slip off, and hits just the rivet.

     

     

     2. In addition to dimpling, you will have to slightly counter sink the

     dimpled holes with the deburring tool or the counter sink tool. I am

     assuming these are flush rivet holes that you used a dimple tool (like in

     Avery) to create the dimple.

     

     

     Reason for going a little deeper is that the dimpling tool does a good job,

     but I found that in weird areas, curves, and thick skins, I had to slightly

     countersink the wholes to get a truly flush fit.

     

     

     For experiment, dimple a piece of scrap, put in a flush rivet and observe

     the fit. Next use the deburring tool to deepen the dimple slightly. Insert

     the flush rivet and you will see that it sits better in the hole.

     

     

     This technique is especially helpful on the thicker skins.

     

     

     Hope this helps,

     Vince H.

     RV8 - Finish

     

          On Dec 30, 2006, at 7:11 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:

          --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net (lhelming(at)sigecom.net)>

     

     

     David, when possible, rivet using the back rivet tool rather than the flush tool.  I know you cannot back rivet them all however.

     

     

     The key to a perfect rivet is to hold the rivet gun head on the rivet perfectly square and have the bucker who is on the other side maintain just enough pressure to keep the bucking bar on the shop side of the rivet so the rivet is not pushed out while bucking.  When back riveting the bucker must keep the bar perfectly square to the rivet with sufficient pressure to not get pushed out of the hole by the riveter.  Do not be afraid of drilling out bad rivets if they truly deserve it, but consider using a rivet shaver or small file or roto sander to gently remove the high spots.  You will want the high spots and high edges eliminated when you go to painting and wet sanding if you expect a good even paint job.  Are you sure you have properly dimpled the problem areas?  Also, when riveting to be sure the rivet will sit down fully in the hole before putting the gun to it.  If not, use a gently turn or three with a countersinking tool over the dimpled hole.

     

     

     Best wishes, Larry in Indiana

     

     

     ---

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Riveting curved skin surface

I used the standard flush rivet tool with bucking bar on the inside of the fuselage for riveting the turtledeck skin to the bulkheads.  (My claustrophobic wife was inside with the bucking bar!)

  

 After driving the rivets I went inside the fuselage and took a small hammer and big punch and gave each rivet a little smack.  The dent at each rivet was easily removed as the skin tightened up to exactly where it should be.  Its like the skin wanted to be straight, and the dented bulkhead was holding it in.

  

 Use the punch backwards and keep your fingers holding the punch against the skin to be sure that you don't slip off the rivet.  By backwards I mean use the 1/2 in square end of the punch on the shop head, and hammer on the (say) 3/8 inch round end.  This is much easier to do than to explain.

  

 I think this little trick could be used lots of places where the skin has been dented in by driving the rivets without enough force on the bar.  Use your own judgment and common sense, please!

  

 I like to use minimum force on the bar until the rivet is set a little, and then increase the force on the bar.  In other words, use more force on the gun than the bar at first.  After the rivet is set enough that you can't push it back out, push harder with the bar.  This way the skin won't dent in.

  

 Just my $.02 worth.

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

 Flying since July 2004

  

  

  [quote][b]

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