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Kitplanes attack
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jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I wouldn't hold their renewal practices against the folks who  

actually produce the magazine.  They wouldn't remotely be the same  

people.  You can rest assured that the writers and editorial staff  

aren't dictating to the business department how to raise revenue.



My experience in business has been that the nature of the accounting  

department at a company will have no correlation to the nature of the  

rest of the company.



-Joe



On Dec 30, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I was unaware that Belvoir published all those magazines as well as  

 Kit

 Planes.  I've lined their pockets more than a little over the years.

 One habit of this publisher that is pretty annoying is the  

 subscription

 renewal solicitation.  Even after entering a 2-year renewal, within a

 few months, one starts receiving "oh, no, hurry, your subscription is

 about to expire, renew now before you go to hell", or something to  

 that

 effect.  It's seems obvious that Belvoir is primarily interested in

 collecting subscriptions and keeping your money.  If I responded to  

 all

 of the renewal requests, I'd be paid up well into the next decade and

 beyond.

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Joe,

I agree that the business side of the company often dictates and engage

in practices unknown to the editors, writers and other contributors.  I

generally rate the content quality high for IFR, Av Consumer and Belvoir

other mags.  However, since we have no way of segmenting Belvoir media

from Belvoir business, then the folks that toil to put out a good read

will be unfairly tarnished by association.



In all likelihood, it was the business side of Belvoir that ungraciously

noticed Barry.  Hopefully, they'll come to realize they have overstepped

the bounds of reasonableness and will withdraw any, implied or

otherwise, threats.  And, if Belvoir business is watching, please know

that henceforth, in all communications, databases, spreadsheets and for

general purposes, I do hereby swear to use 'wf' to designate wood and

fabric aircraft---come and get me.



Finally, regarding Belvoir renewal practices, I hate having to keep a

log of the date and length of renewal for each of their mags to prevent

multiple renewals.  That imposition, small that it is, is caused by

their practice of trying to unfairly and unreasonably to reach into my

pocket to extract money for which they have no justifiable claim, other

than they would like to claim it for themselves if they can get away

with it.  Shame on them.



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive 

--

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

At 10:48 AM 12/31/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I wouldn't hold their renewal practices against the folks who

actually produce the magazine.  They wouldn't remotely be the same

people.  You can rest assured that the writers and editorial staff

aren't dictating to the business department how to raise revenue.



My experience in business has been that the nature of the accounting

department at a company will have no correlation to the nature of the

rest of the company.


	


And yet they are the same company so questionable practices by any department

reflect upon the whole company.



Ron Lee



do not archive

Leland Collins

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 21

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Kitplanes attack

I like Kitplanes better than SportAviation because they have more nut-and-bolt articles and are more technical in general. Keep in mind that Kitplanes supports the CAFE foundation by printing their results on occasion, whereas SportAviation no longer does. Recall the campaign a few years ago when Van urged us to write SportAviation regarding their policy on CAFE. I do like to look at the pretty pictures in SportAviation.

Leland

RV9A, 140 hours, in painting

BAGSTERJR(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Great idea!

 [quote]   ---

BAGSTERJR(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Two comments.  One is that when they send you the No Postage Necessary  envelope, return it empty.  They still have to pay for it.  Two is  that "Joe Blow's Airplane Company has to pay Kit Planes to be put in their  Directory.  Kit Planes does not do it out of the goodness of their  heart.  I think that Kit Planes should have long ago dumped all the onesy  twosy kits out there.  I am still a subscriber who will not renew  again.  Yes, I poured over the directories for a couple of years before I  made my choice, but the important stuff I wanted to know was;

 How many plans had been sold?

 How many kits sold?

 Year kits/plans first made available?

 How many completed?

 Average completion time?

 Percentage of plane not in the kit?

 It finally took a lot of badgering to get them to finally put in estimated  completed  costs.  But some of this information is not wanted out by  Joe Blows paid for infomercial.  Just look at how many exist in the  directory for 10 years or so and still there are less than 10 flying.  Drop  em!

  

 Bill

  

 [quote]   ---

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Maybe it's time for  someone to have a calm discussion with the person who sent the letter, get their  side of it, maybe work out a solution, and see if everyone can have a nice talk  the way adults do.

  

 You know... before we  burn the town down and all.

  

 I happen to like  Kitplanes. I like their articles and I find them helpful and I don't presently  intend to unsubscribe. I don't like the aircraft directly at all. I'm already  building an RV and don't care what else is out there.  I don't like how it  takes up space that could be taken up for articles. But it's their biggest  seller in over-the-counter sales so someone does. 

  

  

 Bob

  

 Do not  archive



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WILLIAM  AGSTER

Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 3:09 PM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kitplanes  attack

 

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Two comments.  One is that when they send you the No Postage Necessary  envelope, return it empty.  They still have to pay for it.  Two is  that "Joe Blow's Airplane Company has to pay Kit Planes to be put in their  Directory.  Kit Planes does not do it out of the goodness of their  heart.  I think that Kit Planes should have long ago dumped all the onesy  twosy kits out there.  I am still a subscriber who will not renew  again.  Yes, I poured over the directories for a couple of years before I  made my choice, but the important stuff I wanted to know was;

 How many plans had been sold?

 How many kits sold?

 Year kits/plans first made available?

 How many completed?

 Average completion time?

 Percentage of plane not in the kit?

 It finally took a lot of badgering to get them to finally put in estimated  completed  costs.  But some of this information is not wanted out by  Joe Blows paid for infomercial.  Just look at how many exist in the  directory for 10 years or so and still there are less than 10 flying.  Drop  em!

  

 Bill

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

On 13:08 2007-01-01 "WILLIAM AGSTER" <BAGSTERJR(at)msn.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Two comments.  One is that when they send you the No Postage

 Necessary envelope, return it empty.  They still have to pay for it.


	


This is a common misconception.  Postage-paid envelopes are paid for in

bulk at a discounted rate.  The payment is based on a bulk discount and an

assumption that only a certain percentage will be used.  But the cost does

not change based on how many actually come back.  Sending a postage-paid

envelope back to a company you're trying to annoy costs them nothing but

the time it takes to open it.



-Rob

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

That's interesting.  I believe AOPA usually has something printed on

their postage paid return envlopes along the lines of asking to put a

stamp on to save funds.



Do not archive



--

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Rob Prior wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

On 13:08 2007-01-01 "WILLIAM AGSTER" <BAGSTERJR(at)msn.com> wrote:

>Two comments.  One is that when they send you the No Postage

>Necessary envelope, return it empty.  They still have to pay for it.

>    

>

This is a common misconception.  Postage-paid envelopes are paid for in

bulk at a discounted rate.  The payment is based on a bulk discount and an

assumption that only a certain percentage will be used.  But the cost does

not change based on how many actually come back.  Sending a postage-paid

envelope back to a company you're trying to annoy costs them nothing but

the time it takes to open it.

-Rob

Can you cite your authority on that? 

I'm trying to figure out why we have software to count every BRM piece 

that runs on our automated equipment & station clerks count the ones 

falling to manual operations, if we don't bill that way.

Charlie

(15 year postal employee, but I work in a different area)

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

On 17:35 2007-01-01 Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Can you cite your authority on that?



 I'm trying to figure out why we have software to count every BRM

 piece that runs on our automated equipment & station clerks count the

 ones falling to manual operations, if we don't bill that way.


	


I can think of many reasons a post office would count BRM mailings, the

most simple of which is just to gain data on usage.  However, I must stand

corrected on my previous statement... A quick search on the USPS site

reveals that BRM does indeed have per-mail costs for each returned item:



http://www.usps.com/replymail/rates.htm



However, looking at their cost table, you can see that each card costs the

company money *regardless* of whether it's returned.  The cost for each

returned card/envelope is $0.65 for the most basic level, and goes down

from there to $0.008 for high-volume items.  I'd guess that Belvoir has a

high-volume account for this, given that they are a parent company for many

publications, and that the per-item return cost is close to the low end of

the scale.



So yes, sending a card or envelope back does cost them money.  But it's

probably not significant.



-Rob



do not archive

rv6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Companies that use the BRM(Business Reply Mail)  envelope pay postage plus a

fee for each one that is returned to them.  If it is empty or taped to a two

by four or a brick(sent by a digruntled mailer thinking the company will be

charged more postage), the USPS works with the company to give them a

credit.  So, the philosophy of returning empties or heavies doesn't usually

harm the customer.



Charlie is right on about USPS internal accounting of BRM pieces.



Jerry Calvert

RV6

N296JC

(34 years USPS)

do not archive



---

rv6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

That's correct.  Upon request from AOPA, the USPS give them a credit for the

amount of the postage stamps attached to BRM(Business Reply Mail) envelopes.

This is available to any organization that receive BRM envelopes.



Jerry Calvert

N296JC

RV6

---

BAGSTERJR(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Yes they do. And I proudly donate to them. 

 do not archive

 Bill

 [quote]   ---

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