Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Cabin top too rough?

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Hey all - 



I'm merrily going along trimming my cabin top to fit, and the further I go, the more I wonder if other people's cabin tops are as rough as mine.  I don't know diddley about fiberglass just yet.  I expect to do a lot of smoothing, but is this ok?  i've provided some pictures so you can see what i'm talking about.  The front pilot side door post is basically a big blob of epoxy with lots of holes and voids.  I think there's plenty of fiberglass layers underneath that, but I'm no expert.  I hear people talking about having a hard time filling pin-holes in fiberglass pieces, but my holes are more like nail holes.  Am I having a normal experience?



cj

#40410

fuse

coop85(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Chris,

    I'd recommend you send those pictures to Vans.  There seems to be a lack

of fiberglass over the core (brown stuff).  The lay-ups should not be that

rough, at least mine were not.  Not something than can't be overcome, but

it's not quite right.



Marcus

Do not archive



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Chris, no pictures came through on my end.

Unfortunately your experience matches mine exactly!!!!!!! The interior 

of the cabin cover looks like a relief map of the Himalayas. It took 

HOURS and HOURS of sanding/ filing, filling, and repeat to get an 

acceptable solution. If you are considering using an overhead 

plenum/duct for air vents, lights etc, you can save a small amount of 

that work. One lesson I learned (too late) was to avoid using Bondo as a 

filler. While it has the advantage of 'setting up quickly to sandable 

stage. Apparently it has a history of shrinking and opening up cracks. 

Unfortunately the effects are not realized/seen for a couple of years. 

Gary Spectecter put me on to 2 products that I'm using. Superfil , which 

is an epoxy based filler with microbaloons already mixed, and Superprime 

which is a primer/pinhole filler. The only downside to the SuperFil is 

that it requires an 8 hr cure time vs the minutes for the auto body 

fillers.

If you haven't started on your doors your in for more of the same. come 

to think about it ALL of Van's fiberglass/composite parts require an 

inordinate amount of time to get them to a finished stage with 

acceptable appearance.



Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

I agree it's rough, but the brown stuff in the picture is actually solid epoxy or whatever.  it's definitely not core material.  I'm doubting that vans will decide to replace a $4000 top, but maybe i'll send them the pictures just for fun.  



cj



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Welcome to the wonderful world of Van's outsourced fiberglass work.

Functional but absolutely crap for workmanship.  Mine still has a whole

bunch of vacuum bag stuck in between the folds of epoxy.  One would

normally expect a mat in between the bag and the part to help absorb

excess resin but it doesn't look like they bothered on mine.   I would

be embarrassed to let a part go out the door like the fiberglass parts

that Van's passes on to the customers.  Not a new thing unfortunately,

so I wouldn't expect them to do anything about it.



Michael



--

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Cabin top too rough?

CJ,



  The top is bad enough, but wait till you get to the doors!  In addition to filling and smooth voids, you have to work hard at the gap between the door and the cabin top.  Way too much work.  The fiberglass is really in a rough stage.  Wish they could have made it a little better to save some time.



Zack



 	  CJohnston(at)popsound.com wrote: 	
		  Hey all - 



I'm merrily going along trimming my cabin top to fit, and the further I go, the more I wonder if other people's cabin tops are as rough as mine.  I don't know diddley about fiberglass just yet.  I expect to do a lot of smoothing, but is this ok?  i've provided some pictures so you can see what i'm talking about.  The front pilot side door post is basically a big blob of epoxy with lots of holes and voids.  I think there's plenty of fiberglass layers underneath that, but I'm no expert.  I hear people talking about having a hard time filling pin-holes in fiberglass pieces, but my holes are more like nail holes.  Am I having a normal experience?



cj

#40410

fuse

_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

That looks pretty rough, especially around the lower corner of the doorway.

Van's may replace it or may just say that's what you get.  We have not seen

any that bad.  In fact, all of ours have been quite consistent and fairly

good quality.  $4,000 is pretty high.  Is that how much that things costs?

It is a pretty huge part.  They would probably require you to pay shipping

one way, sending yours back, which might make it easier for you to just fix

the problems.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Prior to filling and priming the top remember to somehow mark or drill 

out the hard points for the front seat belts.  There have been multiple 

requests on this list for the dimensions to locate the points, because 

they could no longer locate them since the top was no longer translucent.



-- 



Larry Rosen

RV-10 #356

http://lrosen.nerv10.com

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

deruiteraircraftservices(
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Hi All,



If you want a quick(er) fix for pinholes in composites and don't mind 

spending a few dollars extra use "Static Conditioner" made by Akzo 

Aerospace. It fills pinholes quite fast, dries in about half hour and excess 

is then scraped of with a squeegee or similar. Use a tackrag to remove dust, 

Don't use compressed air, Don't use any thinners!

Over this you spray a couple of coats of Laminar x-500 also by Akzo. It 

seals in the Static conditioner. spray until a uniform white layer covers 

all Static. Let this cure and wet sand to a smooth uniform surface, with 

either 240 or 320 grit paper, by hand or orbital sander.

Look for pinholes, fill with bodyfiller, push hard on the filler to force 

into the holes, scrape the excess, you want to fill a hole not make your 

parts bigger or heavier. sand these spots either wet or dry and apply thin 

coat of primer to show other surface imperfections, fill them , sand and 

spot prime, apply topcoat.

I personally prefer to use a metal adhesion spreader to apply body filler, 

the flex in the metal assists in forcing the filler into the hole, it also 

makes it easier to scrape of the excess. Remove as much excess as you can, 

it will save time, material and mess form sanding.



I've painted numerous engine nacelles using above process when working for 

Bombardier Aerospace in Belfast, N.Ireland. Bombardier used to have a state 

of the art(years ago)composite factory which eventualy expanded into former 

DeLorean factory as well.

The materials above are not the cheapest but they DO really work and don't 

take forever and  a day (no pun intended) to cure.



If the company who makes the composites for vans can be persuaded to use a 

two cure cycle rather than single cure the quality would be improved quite a 

bit. It requires the outer skin the be cured first, an adhesive ply and then 

the rest of the lay up. It apperas they use prepeg cloth, close condition 

control in the cleanroom and tmp control of the prepeg itself make a big 

difference as well. It's time and money.

How much are you prepared to pay is really the big question.



Marcel

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

So what is a "metal adhesion spreader"?  Is it just a flexible metal dry 

wall knife?



RAS wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>



 Hi All,



 If you want a quick(er) fix for pinholes in composites and don't mind 

 spending a few dollars extra use "Static Conditioner" made by Akzo 

 Aerospace. It fills pinholes quite fast, dries in about half hour and 

 excess is then scraped of with a squeegee or similar. Use a tackrag to 

 remove dust, Don't use compressed air, Don't use any thinners!

 Over this you spray a couple of coats of Laminar x-500 also by Akzo. 

 It seals in the Static conditioner. spray until a uniform white layer 

 covers all Static. Let this cure and wet sand to a smooth uniform 

 surface, with either 240 or 320 grit paper, by hand or orbital sander.

 Look for pinholes, fill with bodyfiller, push hard on the filler to 

 force into the holes, scrape the excess, you want to fill a hole not 

 make your parts bigger or heavier. sand these spots either wet or dry 

 and apply thin coat of primer to show other surface imperfections, 

 fill them , sand and spot prime, apply topcoat.

 I personally prefer to use a metal adhesion spreader to apply body 

 filler, the flex in the metal assists in forcing the filler into the 

 hole, it also makes it easier to scrape of the excess. Remove as much 

 excess as you can, it will save time, material and mess form sanding.



 I've painted numerous engine nacelles using above process when working 

 for Bombardier Aerospace in Belfast, N.Ireland. Bombardier used to 

 have a state of the art(years ago)composite factory which eventualy 

 expanded into former DeLorean factory as well.

 The materials above are not the cheapest but they DO really work and 

 don't take forever and  a day (no pun intended) to cure.



 If the company who makes the composites for vans can be persuaded to 

 use a two cure cycle rather than single cure the quality would be 

 improved quite a bit. It requires the outer skin the be cured first, 

 an adhesive ply and then the rest of the lay up. It apperas they use 

 prepeg cloth, close condition control in the cleanroom and tmp control 

 of the prepeg itself make a big difference as well. It's time and money.

 How much are you prepared to pay is really the big question.



 Marcel

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Regarding "HOURS and HOURS of sanding...". Can some of the sanding be done w/ a

conture type sander versus by hand? How much Superfil did you use and who sells

it for a reasonable price? Does it have a long shelf life?



Thanks in advance for your response!

Jay



do not archive



Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>

Subject: 	Re: Cabin top too rough?

      

      

      Chris, no pictures came through on my end.

      Unfortunately your experience matches mine exactly!!!!!!! The interior 

      of the cabin cover looks like a relief map of the Himalayas. It took 

      HOURS and HOURS of sanding/ filing, filling, and repeat to get an 

      acceptable solution. If you are considering using an overhead 

      plenum/duct for air vents, lights etc, you can save a small amount of 

      that work. One lesson I learned (too late) was to avoid using Bondo as a 

      filler. While it has the advantage of 'setting up quickly to sandable 

      stage. Apparently it has a history of shrinking and opening up cracks. 

      Unfortunately the effects are not realized/seen for a couple of years. 

      Gary Spectecter put me on to 2 products that I'm using. Superfil , which 

      is an epoxy based filler with microbaloons already mixed, and Superprime 

      which is a primer/pinhole filler. The only downside to the SuperFil is 

      that it requires an 8 hr cure time vs the minutes for the auto body 

      fillers.

      If you haven't started on your doors your in for more of the same. come 

      to think about it ALL of Van's fiberglass/composite parts require an 

      inordinate amount of time to get them to a finished stage with 

      acceptable appearance.

      

      Deems Davis # 406

      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )



__________________________________________________

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

I used every tool I had in the shop. including a belt sander! I also 

used a rasp and coarse files to address some of the large ridges which 

result from the vacuum bagging. (ruined several files!) I did virtually 

all of my sanding by hand. SuperFil comes in  2 sizes and it's 

relatively expensive, I ordered the larger size which ships as 3 one 

gallon buckets.  (1 part A; 2 part B). I bought it from Wicks Aircraft 

supply. And ordered the Smooth Prime (1 gal) at the same time. I've 

primed my doors and the inside of the Cabin cover and have gone through 

about 1/2 of the SmoothPrime.



I don't know about it's shelf life. I hope to not have to worry about that.



Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/

Jay Brinkmeyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Regarding "HOURS and HOURS of sanding...". Can some of the sanding be done w/ a

conture type sander versus by hand? How much Superfil did you use and who sells

it for a reasonable price? Does it have a long shelf life?

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Cabin top too rough?

Well, after wondering about whether the cabin top was too rough, I just

went with it.  I think that the roughness is cosmetic, and while I might

be spending a bunch of hours smoothing, I'm going with it.  by the by, I

got the cabin top fit to the fuselage, and the fit is excellent.  I

think that smoothing and shaping with power tools was definitely the way

to go for me.  It might be that all my time working with shaping steel

and fabricating working on race cars has finally paid off.  I'm not sure

I'd recommend that for everyone, as it's easy to take off too much, but

for me, it's how I'm used to working.  Your mileage may vary.  Also, I

spent some time working on my website.  I finally scrapped the software

I was using, and went a different way.  I had to completely redo

everything, but now it's easy to update, and works pretty well.  anyway,

you can check my cabin top fit here



http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Perfectlygoodairplane/More%20Canopy

%20Trimming.html



sweet.



cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum