 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
luckymacy(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Another 60A alternator, internally regulated voltage regulat |
 |
|
Add me to the list of folks how had this happen to them. I have about 75 hours on this alternator. Scott at Van's said he's heard of this happening before but not often. He suggested to just take the alternator to a repair shop and for $20 bucks get it fixed. Well, I found no such place around here so far that can do that....but that's not why I'm writing.
I want to learn if I can read this problem in advance in the future. I did recently have a battery that got weak. It put out about 11.2 volts one day out of the blue no matter how long I charged it with my Battery Tender. I replaced it and flew a couple of hours on the new battery before the voltage regulator went belly up. Now the alternator puts out about 18 to 19 volts. If I turn on all the lights I can get the voltage to drop to about 13 - 14 at idle.
Why would the battery probem eventually lead to the regulator problem (I've heard it could) and can it be pretty much guaranteed to do so under certain conditions?
thx,
lucky
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Another 60A alternator, internally regulated voltage regulat |
|
|
Lucky, mind sharing the part # on the alternator? It might be the
same as the Geo Metro 55A machine I just installed (I'd have to pull
the cowl to look) but I'd like to know if it had a significant OV
failure mode history.
Thanks,
-Bill B
On 1/8/07, lucky <luckymacy(at)comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
My update. I bought an alternator from Autozone that matched the
suzuki/chevrolet automobile replacement alternator often quoted to be the
same as Van's 60 amp internally regulated alternator even though the part
number was just slightly different. I could not tell a difference from the
outside though their computer said 55 amp and not 60 amp. It has a
Nippondenso internal fan and a hotline of 800 228 9672.
In the install manual, it has a CAUTION: A defective or discharged battery
can damage your new alternator.
But the reason my alternator may have failed is that there was one of the
feet on the alternator was cracked clean through. Though it was still
rigidly mounted that had to set up some fun vibration within the alternator
itself. Don't know if that actually was a cause for the battery to fail as
opposed to the opposite hypothesis I was banting about.
Fun stuff. I still have the magic alternator killing odyssey pc680 battery
I removed if anyone has a Van's 60amp alternator they want to test for
kill..... 
Next task is to replace the high intensify landing/taxi light bulbs that
burned out when turned on with 18 volts on the bus....
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
>
>
> For years I was skeptical too that a weak battery would hasten
> alternator death. However eventually I developed a few thoughts on why
> there may be some truth to this in automobiles.
>
> 1. Higher longer charging does tend to make the alternator run hotter
> and some internal VR alternators are not well cooled. Any vehicle that
> is started with jumper cables is about to ask for a serious effort from
> its charging system.
>
> 2. Installing a new but partly charged battery may stress the alternator
> even higher than ever as it charges the battery at max current for an
> extended period. An old alternator just may not be up to the ef fort.
> Maybe the brushes are worn or maybe the solid state devices get hotter
> than they have for awhile. Certainly the cooling of old greasy/dirty
> components is not as good as on a clean new unit. I'm not sure that a
> test stand is going to successfully imitate the service environment that
> I'm thinking of. This might explain death shortly after the new battery
> is installed though.
>
> 3. Weak "maintenance free" batteries are sometimes low on electrolyte. I
> think that further reduces their capacity to absorb any excess voltage
> or current and might lead to more voltage excursions. Most people never
> pop the caps off automobile batteries any more as it is often not
> obvious how to do it, or that it can be done. It seems that my little
> (8AH) AGM batteries will accept very little current initially when fully
> discharged.
>
> 4. As a WAG another contrib ution might be abnormal operation while
> fooling around with a weak battery. If I leave the ignition/key on with
> my ND IR alternator on my aircraft without starting the engine, the
> alternator does draw several amps of field current and it will heat up
> quite noticeably with no cooling airflow.
>
> Anyway my personal rule now is to change out any suspicious battery with
> a new FULLY charged unit and I can sometimes send the vehicle to the
> wreckers with the original alternator. I do run weak batteries in my
> tractor but that has an external homemade VR that hangs out in the
> breeze (like the alternator) and everything runs very very cool
>
> Ken
>
> >> SNIP>
> >> I had heard that a "weak" battery can damage the alternator/regulator
> >> so this seamed to have validated that statement. For sure though,
> >> from my observations , the battery appeared to go bad first then 2
> >> hours later after a new battery was installed the regulator seems to
> >> have failed.
> >
> >
> > I'm skeptical of such claims. Consider how many batteries
> > you've replaced in cars without having to replace the alternator
> > too.
> >
> > I've "killed" a few alternators in various test situations
> > but all failures involved either loss of cooling or mechanical
> > issues such as bearing or shear-shaft failures.
> >
> > The way to "test" a weak-battery-kills-alternators hypothesis is
> > to separate the two components and then craft a test plan designed
> > to kill an alternator. In other words, if I had a brand new
> > alternator and a charter to damage it in some way on the test
> > stand, what kinds of abuses might I heap upon the unsuspecting
> ; > device to bring about its untimely demise?
> >
> > Once such a test plan is devised, then deduce how battery
> > behavior mimics any of the abuses you've crafted for the
> > purpose of killing an alternator.
> >
> > I'd be interested in anyone's ideas as to how you might go
> > about it. Alternators are inherently self current limiting.
> > Given sufficient cooling air, you cannot "overload" one to
> > destruction. Alternator diodes are robust and will withstand
> > reverse voltage transients many times greater than system voltage.
> > It's the regulators that are most vulnerable to a load-dump
> > event and that's been demonstrated by several builders using
> > Van's (and perhaps other) alternators combined with b-lead
> > contactor controls.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that battery condition might not be a bit-player
& gt; > in a scenario that's hard on alternators. For example:
> > I can see how the "weak battery" thing might have morphed into
> > a cause/effect for alternator failure where someone knows that
> > having a battery be disconnected from the alternator at the same
> > time all loads are removed causes a potentially hazardous
> > over-shoot. One might deduce that a "weak" battery has
> > lost its ability to mitigate a load-dump events thereby
> > placing the alternator at-risk.
> >
> > If this hypothesis were in play for your situation, the alternator
> > seems most likely to have failed while the "weak" battery was
> > in place. Certainly having a "strong" new battery in place totally
> > eliminates the risk for hazardous transients during ordinary
> > system load reductions.
> >
> > This could be hypothetically thrashed for d ays bu
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gmcjetpilot
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Another 60A alternator, internally regulated voltage regulat |
|
|
>Hmmm. My 60A alternator just failed after 15
| Quote: | hours. Mine had blast tubes for cooing on both
front and back openings.
Randy 7A San Jose, Ca
|
Van suffered from a poor supplier for awhile. I talk
to Tom Green and suggested new vendor's.
It's not the ALTS issue, quality of new units are better.
MAKE NO MISTAKE THESE ARE NOT NIPPON
DENSO (ND) ALTERNATORS. They are China
made and all vendors from that part of the world are
not the same. Ones made in Taiwan are of higher
quality. ND stopped making these alternators 10-15
years ago. Get ND replacement parts if possible.
http://www.densoproducts.com/
http://www.densoaftermarket.com/
http://www.densocorp-na.com/
http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/
>From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (luckymacy(at)comcast.net) (lucky)
>I could not tell a difference from
| Quote: | The outside though their computer said 55 amp and
not 60 amp.
|
That's because Van sells a 55 amp alternator that
they call 60 amps. ND rates the output at a lower
RPM (recall 5000 rpm) not max out put at full RPM
(8000 rpm than it levels off).
>In the install manual, it has a CAUTION: A
| Quote: | defective or discharged battery can damage your
new alternator.
|
NO KIDDING. Humm those engineers, dumb
Amen brother, I can't believe all the justification.
Even Bob N has gone on&on how important the main
battery is, and suggest schemes to proactively change
batteries as preventative maintenance. Why risk it? Sure
a dead battery will take all the charge it can (based on
internal resistance) and the alternator will give it all
it can. ANY OF THIS SOUNDS GOOD? No.
The Odyssey battery has very specific charge
requirements & *alternator charging* a dead battery is
NOT ONE OF THE APPROVED METHODS. I
love experts, but please just read the instructions,
follow them. They are written by engineers. Sure
you will get away with it in a pinch, but this is an
airplane not a car.
| Quote: | I have a blast tube towards the back where the
regulator is.
|
Great IDEA! Folks the alternator set up on a
Lycoming is like comparing it to a car but you're bolting
the alternator directly to the exhaust pipe or header-stack.
BY ALL MEANS DO THE FOLLOWING:
Put a heat shield between the #1 exhaust pipe and
alternator. This is called radiant heat. If the alternator
is LOOKING at the pipe that's at +1000 degrees F
and is only a handful of inches what do you think
it does to the alternators temp? darn engineers.
Not all blast tubes are equal, but by all means put it
right on the back where the regulator fins are. There
is no doubt heat will reduce service life of diodes
and I-VR.
Also running at 60% or 70% of the alternators rated
power MAX helps. If you must have seat heaters, pitot
heat (on a VFR plane oh brother) and million watt
landing lights, may be a 60 amp alternator will not
hack it. PLANE POWER has high power alternators,
and unlike B&C they have the fans that work counter-
clockwise for aircraft use.
>From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net (klehman(at)albedo.net)>
| Quote: | If I leave the ignition/key on with my ND IR
alternator on my aircraft without starting the
engine, the alternator does draw several amps of
field current and it will heat up quite noticeably
with no cooling airflow.
|
I healthy ND should not draw that much with the
engine off, but I have to check. Are you sure its not
part drain from other things [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
highflight1(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: Another 60A alternator, internally regulated voltage regulat |
|
|
Just curious: Are you guys talking about the earlier Van's 60A alternators or the newer ones from Van's that have the internal OV unit built in?
Vern
On 1/9/07, gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com) <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: [quote] >From: "McFarland, Randy" < Randy.McFarland(at)novellus.com>
>Hmmm. My 60A alternator just failed after 15
| Quote: | hours. Mine had blast tubes for cooing on both
front and back openings.
Randy 7A San Jose, Ca
|
Van suffered from a poor supplier for awhile. I talk
to Tom Green and suggested new vendor's.
It's not the ALTS issue, quality of new units are better.
[b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luckymacy(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: Another 60A alternator, internally regulated voltage regulat |
|
|
for me, it must be the earlier one.
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Vern W." <highflight1(at)gmail.com>
Just curious: Are you guys talking about the earlier Van's 60A alternators or the newer ones from Van's that have the internal OV unit built in?
Vern
On 1/9/07, gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com) <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: | Quote: | >From: "McFarland, Randy" < Randy.McFarland(at)novellus.com>
>Hmmm. My 60A alternator just failed after 15
| Quote: | hours. Mine had blast tubes for cooing on both
front and back openings.
Randy 7A San Jose, Ca
|
Van suffered from a poor supplier for awhile. I talk
to Tom Green and suggested new vendor's.
It's not the ALTS issue, quality of new units are better.
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luckymacy(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:21 am Post subject: Another 60A alternator, internally regulated voltage regulat |
|
|
14824
What's the URL that you can get maintenance/recall history on parts?
thx,
lucky
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd"
Lucky, mind sharing the part # on the alternator? It might be the
same as the Geo Metro 55A machine I just installed (I'd have to pull
the cowl to look) but I'd like to know if it had a significant OV
failure mode history.
Thanks,
-Bill B
On 1/8/07, lucky wrote:
>
> My update. I bought an alternator from Autozone that matched the
> suzuki/chevrolet automobile replacement alternator often quoted to be the
> same as Van's 60 amp internally regulated alternator even though the part
> number was just slightly different. I could not tell a difference from the
> outside though their computer said 55 amp and not 60 amp. It has a
> Nippondenso internal fan and a hotline of 800 228 9672.
>
> In the install manual, it has a CAUTION: A defective or discharged battery
> can damage your new alternator.
>
> But the reason my alternator may have failed is that there was one of the
> feet on the alternator was cracked clean through. Though it was still
> rigidly mounted that had to set up some fun vibration within the alternator
> itself. Don't know if that actually was a cause for the battery to fail as
> opposed to the opposite hypothesis I was banting about.
>
> Fun stuff. I still have the magic alternator killing odyssey pc680 battery
> I removed if anyone has a Van's 60amp alternator they want to test for
> kill.....
> > > Next task is to replace the high intensify landing/taxi light bulbs that
> burned out when turned on with 18 volts on the bus....
>
> lucky
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Ken
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken
> >
> > For years I was skeptical too that a weak battery would hasten
> > alternator death. However eventually I developed a few thoughts on why
> > there may be some truth to this in automobiles.
> >
> > 1. Higher longer charging does tend to make the alternator run hotter
> > and some internal VR alternators are not well cooled. Any vehicle that
> > is started with jumper cables is about to ask for a serious effort from
> > its charging system.
> > > > > 2. Installing a new but partly charged battery may stress the alternator
> > even higher than ever as it charges the battery at max current for an
> > extended period. An old alternator just may not be up to the ef fort.
> > Maybe the brushes are worn or maybe the solid state devices get hotter
> > than they have for awhile. Certainly the cooling of old greasy/dirty
> > components is not as good as on a clean new unit. I'm not sure that a
> > test stand is going to successfully imitate the service environment that
> > I'm thinking of. This might explain death shortly after the new battery
> > is installed though.
> >
> > 3. Weak "maintenance free" batteries are sometimes low on electrolyte. I
> > think that further reduces their capacity to absorb any excess voltage
> > or current and migh t lead to more voltage excursions. Most people never
> > pop the caps off automobile batteries any more as it is often not
> > obvious how to do it, or that it can be done. It seems that my little
> > (8AH) AGM batteries will accept very little current initially when fully
> > discharged.
> >
> > 4. As a WAG another contrib ution might be abnormal operation while
> > fooling around with a weak battery. If I leave the ignition/key on with
> > my ND IR alternator on my aircraft without starting the engine, the
> > alternator does draw several amps of field current and it will heat up
> > quite noticeably with no cooling airflow.
> >
> > Anyway my personal rule now is to change out any suspicious battery with
> > a new FULLY charged unit and I can sometimes send the vehicle to the
> ; > wreckers with the original alternator. I do run weak batteries in my
> > tractor but that has an external homemade VR that hangs out in the
> > breeze (like the alternator) and everything runs very very cool
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > >> SNIP>
> > >> I had heard that a "weak" battery can damage the alternator/regulator
> > >> so this seamed to have validated that statement. For sure though,
> > >> from my observations , the battery appeared to go bad first then 2
> > >> hours later after a new battery was installed the regulator seems to
> > >> have failed.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm skeptical of such claims. Consider how many batteries
> > > you've replaced in cars without having to replace the alternator
&g t; > ; > > too.
|
| Quote: | > > >
> > > I've "killed" a few alternators in various test situations
> > > but all failures involved either loss of cooling or mechanical
> > > issues such as bearing or shear-shaft failures.
> > >
> > > The way to "test" a weak-battery-kills-alternators hypothesis is
> > > to separate the two components and then craft a test plan designed
> > > to kill an alternator. In other words, if I had a brand new
> > > alternator and a charter to damage it in some way on the test
> > > stand, what kinds of abuses might I heap upon the unsuspecting
> > ; > device to bring about its untimely demise?
> > >
> > > Once such a test plan is devised, then deduce how battery
> > > behavior mimics any of the abuses you've crafte d for the
> > > purpose of killing an alternator.
> > >
> > > I'd be interested in anyone's ideas as to how you might go
> > > about it. Alternators are inherently self current limiting.
> > > Given sufficient cooling air, you cannot "overload" one to
> > > destruction. Alternator diodes are robust and will withstand
> > > reverse voltage transients many times greater than system voltage.
> > > It's the regulators that are most vulnerable to a load-dump
> > > event and that's been demonstrated by several builders using
> > > Van's (and perhaps other) alternators combined with b-lead
> > > contactor controls.
> > >
> > > I'm not suggesting that battery condition might not be a bit-player
> & gt; > in a scenario that's hard on alternat ors. F or example:
> > > I can see how the "weak battery" thing might have morphed into
> > > a cause/effect for alternator failure where someone knows that
> > > having a battery be disconnected from the alternator at the same
> > > time all loads are removed causes a potentially hazardous
> > > over-shoot. One might deduce that a "weak" battery has
> > > lost its ability to mitigate a load-dump events thereby
> > > placing the alternator at-risk.
> > >
> > > If this hypothesis were in play for your situation, the alternator
> > > seems most likely to have failed while the "weak" battery was
> > > in place. Certainly having a "strong" new battery in place totally
> > > eliminates the risk for hazardous transients during ordinary
> > > system load reduc tions.
&g t;
|
[quote] [b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
