Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

Listers,



I would like to learn to perform basic aileron rolls in my RV-6.  I suspect

it isn't such a good idea to just go up and start trying it out.  I am not

interested in doing any higher G maneuvers and only want to do this for my

own entertainment.  Does anybody have a suggestion on how to learn to do

them without getting hurt?

Thanks a bunch

Off list is fine

Tim

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

On 14 Jan 2007, at 14:45, Tim Bryan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Listers,



 I would like to learn to perform basic aileron rolls in my RV-6.  I  

 suspect

 it isn't such a good idea to just go up and start trying it out.  I  

 am not

 interested in doing any higher G maneuvers and only want to do this  

 for my

 own entertainment.  Does anybody have a suggestion on how to learn  

 to do

 them without getting hurt?

 Thanks a bunch

 Off list is fine


	




Basic aerobatics are not a good subject to learn via the internet.   

There is too much risk of a misunderstand leading to an accident.



Find a local aerobatics instructor to go flying with you.



It is easy to say that you only want to do rolls, and not any higher  

g vertical type manoeuvres, and that a one-g aileron roll is such a  

simple manoeuvre that it could be learned from an e-mail message.   

But, some folks have an inate desire to pull once they are upside  

down and lose sight of the sky.  This could be fatal.  Doing your  

first aerobatic manoeuvres with an instructor is cheap insurance.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007, Tim Bryan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anybody have a suggestion on how to learn to do them without getting

 hurt?


	


Tim:



I'll begin by telling you what many other people will probably tell you:  don't

do it without competant aerobatic instruction.  For me, that doesn't mean you

have to hire an instructor or take an aerobatic course.  There are plenty of

non-instructors around with the right kind of experience who'd probably be

willing to teach you how to do an aileron roll, just for the fun of it.  But

choose someone you have reason to believe truly does know what they're doing.



If you do decide to self-teach, I recommend beginning with lazy eights.  This

is the method I use to begin doing aerobatics in an airplane that's new to me.



Fly a coordinated lazy eight, beginning with fairly shallow pitch and bank

angles and working your way up to more aggressive manoeuvres.  Always have

target speeds for the top and bottom of the lazy eight.  Speed discipline is

the thing most likely to keep you out of trouble, since "trouble" is most

likely to be a stall or spin (at the top) and an over-stress or over-speed at

the bottom.  To find your target speeds, set slow cruise (55 or 65 percent

power, for example) and target 20 mph below that speed for the top of the lazy

eight and 20 mph above that speed for the bottom.



Gradually expand the speed range as you get more aggressive.  For an RV your

maximum speed range should probably be 100 mph at the top and 180 mph at the

bottom.  That gives you decent margins from Vne and 1-G stall.  Focus on two

things:  smoothness and hitting the target speeds.  Be disciplined.  If your

target is 120 mph at the top of the lazy eight don't accept either 119 mph or

121 mph.  If you blow through either speed by more than 5 mph, knock off the

manoeuvre, return to level flight, and analyze why it happened.  If you can't

be sure why it happened, give up and find someone to teach you.  You have to be

sure you understand what's happening all the time.



You really should have a G meter for this, and you should be able to smoothly

fly lazy eights in the 100-180 mph speed range, at bank angles up to 90

degrees, without exceeding 2 G.  (At no point should you hit 0 G, and there's

really no reason to go below 1G.)  Try to reach the point where you're flying

the manoeuvre at a fixed stick pitch position, varying only the roll, but still

hitting your numbers exactly.  Then work on increasing the roll rate (which may

require you to compress the speed range), until you are hitting full aileron

deflection at times.



Once you've reached that point you have enough control feel and judgement to

attempt any rolling aerobatic manoeuvre (non-stalled).  It will be obvious to

you how to do an aileron roll.  If it's not, give up and find someone to teach

you.



Tedd McHenry

Surrey, BC, Canada

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I would like to learn to perform basic aileron rolls in my RV-6.  ..... 

 Does anybody have a suggestion on how to learn to do

 them without getting hurt?




	




With an instructor.  I know this has been said before, that is because it is 

important.  You said you wanted to learn without getting hurt, that means 

using an instructor.



Now, if all you want to do is kill yourself, no need of an instructor.



A lot of really bad things can happen in aerobatics real fast.  The key is 

to recognize the beginning of a bad maneuver and have a way out before it 

becomes a really bad maneuver.  A beginner may not recognize the signs of a 

bad maneuver, therefore get help.



In an RV, learning speed control is critical.  Much more so that many 

purpose built aerobatic aircraft.  Cruise speed is too close to Vne, by that 

I mean at normal cruise a Split S (or any other maneuver where the nose is 

pointed straight down or maybe 45 degrees down)  will put you in excess of 

Vne and the designed G limits.  Exceeding one is bad, but exceeding both is 

really bad!



Now for the good part, once you learn how to fly the aerobatic maneuvers, 

they are so much fun in an RV,  90% of all my RV flying is aerobatics.



Bob

Jeff Linebaugh

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Collierville, TN

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

Don’t perform aerobatics without proper instruction. Know your limits and never exceed them…that applies to anything in an airplane, especially aerobatics.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Example:  Locally, a T-6 owner recently nearly pulled the wings off his T-6 when he attempted an aileron roll without knowing what he was doing.  Half way through the roll he got disoriented, and pulled through a rolling split S.  Besides going well over redline, he applied rolling g’s to the wing.  So bad was it, that my wife easily noticed all the wrinkles in the top surface of the wing. The wings were replaced…$$  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Considering what you have in your airplane time/money wise, and considering any family/friends you may have, you owe it to both to do it right…go get some dual from a qualified instructor.  I think you will find that it was the best money you spent, and the most fun you have had in an airplane!  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

 AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail  Signature" <![endif]-->Jeff Linebaugh  

jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net  

F1 Rocket #33 N240KT  

Memphis, TN.  

<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

       [quote][b]

_________________
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
Collierville, TN

wdleonard(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

There has been a lot of great comments so far.  The one thing I have not seen mentioned is getting a book on basic aerobatic flying.  There are several available.  Having spent the time with the book, you will understand the mechanics of each maneuver and the potential pitfalls.  This will then make your time with your instructor (aka, most RV pilots) much more effective and efficient.   

  

 Dont forget to memorize the entry speeds published by Vans.

  

 David Leonard



Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY

My websites at:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html

 http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html

http://leonardiniraq.blogspot.com 



 

 On 1/15/07, Jeff Linebaugh <jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net (jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		     

Don't perform aerobatics without proper instruction. Know your limits and never exceed them…that applies to anything in an airplane, especially aerobatics.  

  

Example:  Locally, a T-6 owner recently nearly pulled the wings off his T-6 when he attempted an aileron roll without knowing what he was doing.   Half way through the roll he got disoriented, and pulled through a rolling split S.  Besides going well over redline, he applied rolling g's to the wing.  So bad was it, that my wife easily noticed all the wrinkles in the top surface of the wing. The wings were replaced…$$  

  

Considering what you have in your airplane time/money wise, and considering any family/friends you may have, you owe it to both to do it right…go get some dual from a qualified instructor.   I think you will find that it was the best money you spent, and the most fun you have had in an airplane! 

  

  

  

Jeff Linebaugh  

 jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net (jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net) 

F1 Rocket #33 N240KT  

Memphis, TN.  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com



	


	


-- 

  [quote][b]

rocketbob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

Tim, a good book to read is "Better Aerobatics" by Alan Cassidy.  I have read/thumbed through a few aerobatic books, and by far this one is the best.  A couple of years ago I went up in my -6 with Greg Koontz, and learned a lot of good stuff from him, which just reiterated some things I read from the book.  Up until that point I went up with a few experienced guys who showed me the ropes.  But for the most part you will have to teach yourself and practice with plenty of altitude after you get someone competent to show you how, and I emphasize "competent" (someone who either does airshows or competitive acro).  You'll be better, safer and have more confidence if you are properly taught.   



Regards,

Bob Japundza

RV-6 flying F1 under const.

  [quote][b]

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

At the risk of being politically incorrect and accused of advocating dangerous antisocial behavior, I do know of one guy who taught himself aerobatics. It was awhile back, of course, and his name was Bob Hoover.  

   

Disclaimer:  My guess is that if he were starting over today, he would read the books and take the lessons.  

   

Terry  

   

     

   

    

On 1/15/07, Jeff Linebaugh <jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net (jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:       

Don't perform aerobatics without proper instruction. Know your limits and never exceed them…that applies to anything in an airplane, especially aerobatics.   

   

Example:  Locally, a T-6 owner recently nearly pulled the wings off his T-6 when he attempted an aileron roll without knowing what he was doing.   Half way through the roll he got disoriented, and pulled through a rolling split S.  Besides going well over redline, he applied rolling g's to the wing.  So bad was it, that my wife easily noticed all the wrinkles in the top surface of the wing. The wings were replaced…$$   

   

Considering what you have in your airplane time/money wise, and considering any family/friends you may have, you owe it to both to do it right…go get some dual from a qualified instructor.   I think you will find that it was the best money you spent, and the most fun you have had in an airplane!  

   

   

   

Jeff Linebaugh   

jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net (jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net)  

F1 Rocket #33 N240KT   

Memphis, TN.   

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com 	


  

  



  

 --    	  Quote: 	
		     	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9

        [quote][b]

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

LOL.  Tell ya what...if Bob Hoover is the  model to follow, before you go out and try going upside down without training,  make sure you can at least pour a cup of tea while doing plain old coordinated  turns!  

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE (and get some training)

  

 )_( Dan

 RV-7 N714D

 www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com

 [quote]   ---

michele.delsol(at)microsi
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

I feel that I must add my 2 cents as one very important issue has not been raised. All responses have said that before you try any aerobatics you should train with a competent instructor. That’s IOTTMCO (intuitively obvious to the most casual observer). I did exactly that – a total of 30 hours training on CAP 10 with two instructors. The first one trained me in all the basic manoeuvres (rolls, snap rolls, loops, hammerheads, chandelles…), the second one started out with spins, all sorts of spins, and how to get out of them. This was a real eye opener. I definitely believe that one should be trained in recognizing and getting out of unusual situations as you never know what position the plane will be in if you mess up a manoeuvre. An example, you try a loop and for some reason, you enter it with insufficient speed. Just as you get to the top, the plane stalls upside down. Question: what do you do? If you have not practice spins in general, not just simply the two turn spin, you might be in deep trouble.  

   

This being said, I feel that the first instructor, with whom I started aerobatic training, was negligent in not starting me on the flight envelope and spins.  

   

Furthermore, it’s fun. I for one enjoyed every minute of the Cap 10 training and will go for more training as soon as circumstances allow.  

   

Michele  

RV8 Finishing  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob J.

 Sent: lundi 15 janvier 2007 19:25

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV  

  

   

Tim, a good book to read is "Better Aerobatics" by Alan Cassidy.  I have read/thumbed through a few aerobatic books, and by far this one is the best.  A couple of years ago I went up in my -6 with Greg Koontz, and learned a lot of good stuff from him, which just reiterated some things I read from the book.  Up until that point I went up with a few experienced guys who showed me the ropes.  But for the most part you will have to teach yourself and practice with plenty of altitude after you get someone competent to show you how, and I emphasize "competent" (someone who either does airshows or competitive acro).  You'll be better, safer and have more confidence if you are properly taught.  

 

 Regards,

 Bob Japundza

 RV-6 flying F1 under const.   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4

        [quote][b]

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  At the risk of being politically incorrect and accused of advocating 

dangerous antisocial behavior, I do know of one guy who taught himself 

aerobatics. It was awhile back, of course, and his name was Bob Hoover.



Disclaimer:  My guess is that if he were starting over today, he would 

read the books and take the lessons.


	




I thought he was an Army Air Corps Pilot, trained by the Army.  I know he 

was trained in dog fighting, is that not the same as aerobatics?  If he 

went through the same WW II Army Flight Training (Aviation Cadets) as my 

Uncle then he got aerobatic instruction from the Army.



Yes, there are a lot of people who are self taught in aerobatics.  Some of 

them, but not all, are dead!  Some aerobatic pilots who are trained in 

aerobatics are also dead due to aerobatics.  Aerobatic training will not 

insure success, it just puts more of the odds in your favor.

Bob

denis.walsh(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

Offered in the interest of fact finding:

Bob Hoover learned to fly at Nashville's Berry Field while working at  

a local grocery store to pay for the flight training. He enlisted in  

the Tennessee National Guard and was sent for pilot training with the  

Army. He was sent to Casablanca where his first major assignment of  

the war was test flying the assembled aircraft ready for service. He  

was later assigned to the Spitfire-equipped 52nd Fighter group in  

Sicily. After 58 successful missions, on the 59th his malfunctioning  

Mark V Spitfire was shot down by a Focke-Wulf 190 off the coast of  

Southern France in 1944 and was taken prisoner. He spent 16 months at  

the German prison camp Stalag Luft 1 in Barth, Germany

Denis Walsh

On Jan 16, 2007, at 07:14 296990001, Bob wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> At the risk of being politically incorrect and accused of  

> advocating dangerous antisocial behavior, I do know of one guy who  

> taught himself aerobatics. It was awhile back, of course, and his  

> name was Bob Hoover.

>

> Disclaimer:  My guess is that if he were starting over today, he  

> would read the books and take the lessons.

 I thought he was an Army Air Corps Pilot, trained by the Army.  I  

 know he was trained in dog fighting, is that not the same as  

 aerobatics?  If he went through the same WW II Army Flight Training  

 (Aviation Cadets) as my Uncle then he got aerobatic instruction  

 from the Army.

 Yes, there are a lot of people who are self taught in aerobatics.   

 Some of them, but not all, are dead!  Some aerobatic pilots who are  

 trained in aerobatics are also dead due to aerobatics.  Aerobatic  

 training will not insure success, it just puts more of the odds in  

 your favor.

 Bob

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:14:59 -0600

Bob <panamared5(at)brier.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >At the risk of being politically incorrect and accused of advocating 

 >dangerous antisocial behavior, I do know of one guy who taught himself 

 >aerobatics. It was awhile back, of course, and his name was Bob Hoover.

 >

 >Disclaimer:  My guess is that if he were starting over today, he would 

 >read the books and take the lessons.

 I thought he was an Army Air Corps Pilot, trained by the Army.  I know he 

 was trained in dog fighting, is that not the same as aerobatics?  If he 

 went through the same WW II Army Flight Training (Aviation Cadets) as my 

 Uncle then he got aerobatic instruction from the Army.

I've got Bob Hoover's autobiography.  It explains that he learned to fly as a civilian before the war, and that he did teach himself basic aerobatics.  It also describes him hitting a tree when doing a low level "buzz job" to impress some friends.  He is lucky to have survived the indiscretions of his youth.

Bob Hoover was a great pilot.  But, just because he taught himself aerobatics back in the 1930s is not a good argument for doing the same today.  Things were different back then, and the accident rate was much higher. I'm currently reading Robert Buck's autobiography.  He successfully taught himself to fly IFR before getting hired by TWA in 1937.  This is not recommended today either.

Kevin Horton

do not archive

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: Learning Basic Aileron rolls in an RV

In a message dated 01/16/2007 10:46:55 AM Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm currently reading Robert Buck's autobiography. 	


 Yo, Kevin- put down that book, get out in da shop and finish that dang airplane!

  

 

  

 From The PossumWorks in TN

 Mark & do not archive

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum