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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

And the lawyers brought this case to some very dumb jurors at christmas time, I bet the statemant " her husband won't be home for the holidays" came up sometime during the trial and those jurors ate it up........ 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> wrote:

--> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net>

Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will result

 in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have anything to worry

 about.

 

 But you knew that, Milt. You knew that. 

 

 Do not archive

 

 --


	




Bob,



You are correct, I knew that and do not mean to belittle your opinion. I know from your many posts and the hotline you are an honest open minded individual and would be that way on a jury.



My point is that you are a rarity and most jurors bring a strong bias to the jury room. Doesn't matter what the charge from the judge is when the door is closed the jury does as it pleases.



I am a prime example, were I on the that jury I would enter the court with a mindset of there is no way the eaa or first responders are gonna get burnt and I am certain there would be one or more in the room who subscribe to the deep pocket theory. I think at best the outcome of a trial is  slightly biased in the favor of fact and strongly biased in favor of raw emotion, sympathy for surviving family, and prejudice.



I believe this is supported by the 2 extremes of responses to this thread.



do not archive



--------

Milt

N395V

F1 Rocket





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596

   [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

//I personally believe there's something wrong with the system when a person

*can't* assume liability for his own actions.



OK, one more time, this case isn't and wasn't about a pilot not accepting

liability for his own actions. Or believing that if he were to be in a plane

crash, it would be someone else's ... And only someone else's ... Fault.



This pilot died IN a crashed plane. But according to the autopsy, he died

because he burned to death in that plane. 



The question is: was there an assumption of responsibility on the part of

the EAA and the fly-in to provide reasonable emergency services, and did

those emergency services provide a reasonable response?



The court and the jury-- and the legal system you don't like -- is NOT

saying that the guy did not die as a result of being in a plane that crashed

or that he didn't assume the risks of that flight.



Where do all the responsibilities lie? You say it lies with the pilot. "Hey,

he went flying and he knew the risks." Well, that may well be true. But why

is it not also legitimate to say to the EAA, "you put on an air show, and

you know the risks of putting on an air show?"



I'll go back to the e-coli outbreak. All of the following could be

considered legitimate.  "You shouldn't have eaten at Taco John's. You knew

the risks."  "You shouldn't have opened a restaurant. You knew the risks."

"You shouldn't have been in the lettuce distribution business. You knew the

risks."  "You should haven't been in the lettuce growing business. You knew

the risks."  "You should have washed the cow sh*t off the lettuce before you

sold it. You knew the risks."  "You shouldn't have gone in the cattle

raising business. You knew the risks."



We're at an age now where there is a level of dependence upon one another.

Things are such now that the actions of one could impact others. 



It was a lot easier when Ma and Pa Kettle lived off the land, but that isn't

the case anymore.



Just as most plane crashes occur because of a series of errors, rather than

just one, people die now for the same reasons.



//Unfortunately, our legal system doesn't agree with me.



Fortunately, our legal system recognizes the criminal nature of the actions

the person who started the thread suggested as an alternative.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

You know, I'd LOVE to get on a jury sometime. I've been called into the pool

twice (it's like sitting around in homeroom) but never got on a case. So I

don't know.



I have covered some court cases but most of those were criminal murder cases

with all sorts of twists and no happy endings and I remember sitting there

thinking, "man, I'm glad I'm not on THAT jury." But looking back, I think

most of the time they got it right and they sure took a long time to do so. 



Bias? Yes, I think most members of a jury have a bias. But then again, I'm

one of the few people in the media who acknowledges that media members have

a bias because humans are a biased lot and we're all human. I think the key

here is whether people in a jury recognize the importance of their setting

aside their initial bias -- while still bringing their expertise to the

process (if they have any) -- to engage in an intelligent process. Whether

they do or don't, I think, varies.



Product liability and liability of actions is a very emotional subject. Like

same-sex marriage, politicians spew all about it when they're running for

office because it's simply told and nobody's ever going to check any facts.

Then they get elected and suddenly they don't talk about it anymore, I

think, because they know it's a little more complex situation than a

campaign stuff speech. Most issues are.



I tend to think that just about everything that can be made to sound simple

actually has more to it.  



As you've probably figured out, I think this case has more to it. For

reasons we all agree on, I think, it just HAS to. Because on the surface, it

doesn't make a lot of sense.



Bob



Do not archive

--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rocketbob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

I say we stick the lawyers and jurors in an airplane filled with McDonalds coffee and tell them to go fly and teach themselves how to do rolls at low altitude.



Could we please get back to technical discussions, and get the S/N ratio back down to where it ought to be?  



Regards,

Bob Japundza

RV-6 flying F1 under const.

do not archive



  [quote][b]

jc-matronics_rv(at)jline.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/07/24/SP1

62388.DTL



Read it and weep! Someone mentioned requiring every participating pilot to sign

a waiver form. According to this judgement, that still could be null and voided.



Quote:



A key issue is a standard disclaimer form that participants sign on guided trips

or when accessing private property. The intent of the form is to relieve the

host guide or outdoors company of legal risk should a participant have an

accident of his or her own creation.



Yet in last week's decision, the judge did not recognize the disclaimer form. He

ruled that the injured party was not responsible for her own safety. 






start to accept that responsibility for our actions. If a person is skiing and

runs into a tree, and dies from the cold before the ski patrol arrives, the ski

resort is not responsible, read the back of the lift ticket, skiing is an

inherently dangerous sport...yadda, yadda, yadda. Just like flying, if you take

off with the

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Te operators of horse riding events have apparently gotten a  disclaimer defense to actually work here in Florida.  They got the legal  protection they deserve because they did the necessary work, paid the  appropriate lobbyists, hired the right lawyers, whatever.  

  

 We (EAA), on the other hand, were not smart enough to do this.

  

 I think we got the results we deserved.  So pay-up  sucker B-)

  

 Tracy

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

dwight(at)openweave.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

On Thu Jan 18 12:07:05 2007, Bob J. wrote :

 	  Quote: 	
		  I say we stick the lawyers and jurors in an airplane filled with McDonalds

coffee and tell them to go fly and teach themselves how to do rolls at low

altitude.


	


This leaves one question ... what primer should they be spraying on each

other during their roll entry?



  -- Dwight



for goodness sakes, do not archive

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

<This pilot died IN a crashed plane. But according to

the autopsy, he died because he burned to death in

that plane.>



And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental and

that he COULD die in the plane.

      Darrell Reiley

  RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"

  N622DR  Reserved 

  N469RV  Reserved

   

  CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com

   

  

 

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lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Exactly! The plane was experimental. That should be

enough said! He built it and died in it. Don't blame

anyone else! The EAA for fly-in's has no more

responsibility to bring in extra forces than does a

city that has 500 landings and departures a day.

That's like saying we are going to have a city parade,

line the streets with fire trucks...???? We might have

too many people on the road.



Do not Archive



      Darrell Reiley

  RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"

  N622DR  Reserved 

  N469RV  Reserved

   

  CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com

   

  

 

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love 

(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

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lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

<We're at an age now where there is a level of

dependence upon one another. Things are such now that

the actions of one could impact others.>



We are in an age where people do not want to take

responsibility for their own actions. 



It's very sad! I'm in favor... FAA new ruling: Build

an experimental aircraft... you're on your own. Kill

yourself, blame yourself put in writing before you can

acquire your airworthy certificate. 



      Darrell Reiley

  RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"

  N622DR  Reserved 

  N469RV  Reserved

   

  CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com

   

  

 

Want to start your own business?

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ptrotter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Westchester County, NY

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

This has been an interesting topic because it can affect all of us through 

the insurance premiums we, and the organizations we belong to, pay, so I 

thought I would add my $.02 to the discussion.



I agree with Bob Collins in many ways.  He is not really taking sides in 

this argument, only saying that we should have all the information before we 

condemn one side or the other.  Most of us not having been witnesses to the 

accident and not having been at the trial, we really don't know what 

actually happened and why the jury made the decision they did.  That being 

said, I'll make a few comments.



First, I would like to say that my sympathies are with the family of the 

pilot, as I'm sure that most of ours are.  If they are reading this 

discussion, I hope they realize that we are not attacking them, but rather 

the system that allowed this to occur and the unethical lawyers that take 

advantage of that system.  In fact, I would bet that the family did not 

initiate the suit, but were probably approached by a lawyer that convinced 

them the even though pilot error caused the crash and resulting death, that 

they could sue someone with big insurance policies and collect some money. 

That lawyer probably didn't care one bit about the family, only his ability 

to get his cut of the award and is probably complaining that he couldn't get 

a bigger cut.  This is a big problem with our society today.  The attitude 

of sue everyone in sight regardless of their involvement and/or 

responsibility and hope that a jury with sympathize with them and award 

money, on the basis that it will be covered by insurance and the defendant 

isn't really paying themselves, is a bad thing.  Of course these same jurors 

will complain bitterly when their insurance premiums go up.  I believe that 

our judicial systems work pretty well for criminal trials, but in civil 

trials like this one, all common sense disappears.



I would also like to propose another argument.  Although I don't know many 

of the facts, I assume the airport at which this occured is a public use 

airport, that the pilot could have flown into at any time.  I also assume 

that the pilot was not participating in the airshow itself and had just 

flown in as a spectator.  I also assume that he did not take off during the 

waivered period.  If these assumptions are correct, then I don't see how 

EAA, as the airshow sponser, could be responsible, as they do not control 

the airport during non-waivered time, and have no responsibility for airport 

operations and services outside of the time the airshow is actually going 

on.  For all practical purposes, the pilot was simply taking off as he 

probably has from many airports.  In fact, I don't see how the EAA could be 

responsible for providing any airport operation services to non-participants 

of the airshow.  It could be argued that the airport operator should have 

provided better emergency services, but there are very few GA airports that 

have the onsite professional emergency services like those that the suit 

claims should have been there.  If this airshow operated in a manner similar 

to the one that I have worked at, then outside of the waivered period, 

normal airport operations were in effect as far a flying activities are 

concerned.  At best,the airshow sponser would be responsible for ensuring 

that spectators were kept away from the flight line and could not interfere 

with the normal airport operations.  If the EAA had inhibited the ability of 

the rescue operations that are normally available at that airport to reach 

the plane in a reasonable time, then I could see some responsibility on the 

EAA's part, but that does not seem to be the case.



This accident was a tragedy, like all accidents that result in injury or 

death, but we need to stand up and take responsibility for ourselves and our 

actions, and stop trying to blame everyone around us for the results of our 

own actions.



Paul Trotter



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
Paul Trotter
RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit
N801PT (reserved)

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

For what it's worth ... Don didn't build the airplane; he bought it a couple

of weeks before the accident.



Terry

--

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

<" He built it and died in it.">



Sorry I SHOULD have said built it or bought it. 



do not archive



--- Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Exactly! The plane was experimental. That should be

 enough said! He built it and died in it. Don't blame

 anyone else! The EAA for fly-in's has no more

 responsibility to bring in extra forces than does a

 city that has 500 landings and departures a day.

 That's like saying we are going to have a city

 parade,

 line the streets with fire trucks...???? We might

 have

 too many people on the road.

 

 Do not Archive

 

 

 

 

 

       Darrell Reiley

   RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"

   N622DR  Reserved 

   N469RV  Reserved

    

   CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com

    

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love 

 (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures

 list.

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 FAQ,



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      Darrell Reiley

  RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"

  N622DR  Reserved 

  N469RV  Reserved

   

  CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com

   

  

 

Want to start your own business?

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Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

DO NOT ARCHIVE



He did NOT build the airplane.



Those of us that were on this list flying our airplanes when this happened, 

had a discussion about the airplane having been just purchased and the new 

owner's desire for TRANSITION TRAINING.



I remember this accident. I waited at Harvey Airport with my airplane and an 

RV-4 that was painted like a John Deere Tractor. The pilot of the RV-4 wore 

a John Deere hat while he flew.  We were just minutes late arriving at 

Arlington. A few minutes sooner and we would have landed right before the 

airport closed for the air show.  I saw video of the accident scene from a 

news hello while eating dinner at Harvey. The RV-4 I was flying with did not 

have a transponder and we used my transponder operating as a FLIGHT of two 

under the Bravo airspace.

Gary A. Sobek

"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,

1,976 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA





----Original Message Follows----

From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Why is it such a bad thing

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:52:29 -0800 (PST)




And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental and

that he COULD die in the plane.



       Darrell Reiley

   RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"

   N622DR  Reserved

   N469RV  Reserved



   CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com



_________________________________________________________________

Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. 

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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

He did not build it, rather he bought it and only had been flying it for

two weeks...

Dan 



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

You know, I was reading the ComAir report today. One of the pilots, in

violation of the bottle to throttle rule, had a couple of drinks at dinner

the night before. Then, in their sleepiness, they got on the wrong runway

and ...well, you know the rest. The tower apparently wasn't paying

attention, the pilots obviously didn't know what they were doing (and also

violated the sterile cockpit rule) and the people in the back who burned

death in the wreckage? Screw 'em. They knew a plane crash was a possibility.



Bottoms up, boys!

--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it such a bad thing

 	  ptrotter wrote: 	
		   I also assume 

that the pilot was not participating in the airshow itself and had just 

flown in as a spectator.  I also assume that he did not take off during the 

waivered period.  If these assumptions are correct, then I don't see how 

EAA, as the airshow sponser, could be responsible, as they do not control 

the airport during non-waivered time, and have no responsibility for airport 

operations and services outside of the time the airshow is actually going 

on.  For all practical purposes, the pilot was simply taking off as he 

probably has from many airports.  In fact, I don't see how the EAA could be 

responsible for providing any airport operation services to non-participants 

of the airshow.  	




Quite possibly the most cogent argument I've heard... anywhere.... ever.... about anything.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

I truly hope the family and the lawyers are reading

this thread. It's truly a sad day for them. For the

scum bag lawyers that promote this type of suit, I

have no sympathy! Their day will come. For the family,

I'm saddened for their loss and deeply saddened they

could bring themselves down to this level judicial

abuse.



Darrell

--- Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>

 

 Well said Mark, and trust me the family and lawyers

 are reading this. I 

 was there, but well not comment on what I did or did

 not see because

 I have had lawyers call me from reading this list

 before. As I recall 

 some of our own RV family tried desperately

 to help Don but were unable to because of the fire,

 It was a very sad 

 day and for anyone that was not a witness to be

 commenting on what happened

 without knowing the facts is total BS. IMO

 

 Jerry

 do not archive

 

 

 

 Mark Sletten wrote:

 

 > This argument continues to chase its own tail…

 >

 > Tim Bryan said:

 >

 > “I have a hard time believing that any of it will

 sway me to believe 

 > someone else is responsible for his accident. Even

 if the emergencies 

 > services didn't show up at all. Had they caused

 the crash and then 

 > didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make

 their wrong right it 

 > would be different. But… They didn't. Instead they

 showed up and made 

 > every attempt short of getting someone else hurt

 to do what they are 

 > trained to do.”

 >

 > What Bob has asked is “How do you know?” How do

 you know what the 

 > responding EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there?

 If you were, are you 

 > a trained EMS responder? Do you know what the

 standard is for response 

 > time and actions?

 >

 > Those who continue to offer “facts” to this list

 to further their 

 > arguments have obviously lost the ability to

 discern the difference 

 > between fact and opinion. Most have only read

 about the story here on 

 > this list, yet speak as though there is no chance

 their view of the 

 > situation might be skewed. I remember my old

 gaffer telling me as a 

 > young lad (kindergarten I believe) “There are at

 least two sides to 

 > every story.”

 >

 > Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it

 personally distressing 

 > that members of a community with which I identify

 myself are calling 

 > for violent action against a family who used to be

 a member of that 

 > community – even if the call to violence is only

 figurative. Let’s 

 > assume for a moment (shouldn’t be much of a

 problem considering all 

 > the assumption going around) that there IS more to

 this case than 

 > we’ve read here on the list, and those calling to

 “hang the family” 

 > are doing so from a position of ignorance. What if

 a member of that 

 > family were reading your vitriol? I wince

 (literally, not 

 > figuratively) at that thought…

 >

 > Aside from that, the closed minds and

 self-righteousness only gives 

 > those you abhor (greed lawyers) further

 ammunition. I’m sure any 

 > competent lawyer reading through this thread would

 laugh at how 

 > “stupid” we are…

 >

 > DO NOT ARCHIVE

 >

 > Mark Sletten

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >



------------------------------------------------------------------------

 >

 >  

 >

 

 



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 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,



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Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it such a bad thing

 	  lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo wrote: 	
		  

We are in an age where people do not want to take

responsibility for their own actions. 

	




I had a guy once tell me exactly this, and then lapsed into a rant about how much child support he was paying.  I still shake my head when I think about it.  I finally said to him, "Ben, you took vows to be married in sickness and health,  and then you agreed to have a child together, and then -- and it doesn't matter  why, an action is an action --  and you not only didn't take responsibility by not providing a family for him on a fulltime basis, you're whining about how much you have to pay in order to support him and the woman you left behind to raise him."



The irony of it all was  funny. But that's about all that was.



So maybe you're right. Nobody accepts responsibility for their actions.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Maybe the families should sue the FAA tower employees,

the fire department for a slow response, the diner

that served the pilots the night before too...? 



Darrell



--- Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> wrote:



[quote] 

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 

 You know, I was reading the ComAir report today. One

 of the pilots, in

 violation of the bottle to throttle rule, had a

 couple of drinks at dinner

 the night before. Then, in their sleepiness, they

 got on the wrong runway

 and ...well, you know the rest. The tower apparently

 wasn't paying

 attention, the pilots obviously didn't know what

 they were doing (and also

 violated the sterile cockpit rule) and the people in

 the back who burned

 death in the wreckage? Screw 'em. They knew a plane

 crash was a possibility.

 

 Bottoms up, boys!

 

 

 --

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