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Electric Rudder Trim
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Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

I’ve looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim’s site that Vic did and I was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was wanting to know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the tab as well as if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust.  I’m trying to figure out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my RV-10.  I was thinking of cutting the tab into the rudder like the elevator tab.  I would have to create a spar for the tab and the ruder and possible even be able to have the control linkage comes thru the spar as to not be seen from the outside.  

            Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr trim?  

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 CDNI Principal Engineer

 Sprint PCS

 16020 West 113th Street

 Lenexa, KS 66219

 Mailstop KSLNXK0101

 (913) 859-1414 (Office)

 (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)

 (913) 859-1234 (Fax)

 Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com   

  

       [quote][b]

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Ray, Vic says it's sensitive enough to swing the ball I think

1/2 to 3/4 of a ball either way of center.  As for the length,

I wondered the same myself, but the photos should let us count

the number of hinge eyelits and go from there. I think it's

the standard aluminum hinge.  The width is just the hinge

itself, no extra tab material.



I ran his rudder trim when I flew his plane, and it's not

overly touchy like our elevator trim.  So you can hold the

switch down much longer and make it adjust.  Should be pretty

easy to get precision with it.



The cut-in tab would be nice looking, if you can do it well

and keep the structure nice.  Don Wentz showed me one at LOE

that looked great that way.  You'd have to make sure it's

located well so the elevator wash doesn't make it useless.



My taped on tab is about 5" long, and is made from a wood

slat about 1/4" thick or slightly more, tapered to nothing

on the leading edge.  This works well for me in cruise,

but in descent it's too much, and in slower flight it's

not enough.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		               I’ve looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim’s site that Vic did 

 and I was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was 

 wanting to know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the 

 tab as well as if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust. 

  I’m trying to figure out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my 

 RV-10.  I was thinking of cutting the tab into the rudder like the 

 elevator tab.  I would have to create a spar for the tab and the ruder 

 and possible even be able to have the control linkage comes thru the 

 spar as to not be seen from the outside.

 

             Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what 

 length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr trim?

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Ray, 

Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Davis' site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2 " wide and 5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how much bend to put in it. 

Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed at cruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requirements also.  I know lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim tape to mount their trim tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when done AFTER the plane is painted. 

Dean 40449 



________________________________________________________________________

 Interested in getting caught up on today's news?

 Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

    [quote][b]

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Thanks guys.  I was thinking of a tab cut into the rudder maybe 6” long centered just above the tail light and below the next stiffener where the rudder would still have the bottom rib.  I would re-enforce the rudder by adding tiny triangle ribs and a spar to support the hinge.  My first concern is to ensure I don’t reduce the strength of the rudder from top to bottom.  

            You brought up a good point about wheel pants, since I still don’t have mine on.  So I was thinking the 6” long tab would be maybe 1.5” to 2” deep to have enough throw for any condition and not be too sensitive.  I would ensure that it would swing in the direction that is mostly needed and use the same bent forward lip that goes under the spar like on the elevator trim tab.  

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com

 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:27 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Electric Rudder Trim  

  

   

Ray,  

Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Davis' site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2 " wide and 5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how much bend to put in it.  

Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed at cruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requirements also.  I know lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim tape to mount their trim tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when done AFTER the plane is painted.  

Dean 40449  



 

 ________________________________________________________________________

 Interested in getting caught up on today's news?

 Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
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       [quote][b]

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Ray, Ray, Ray, you've been flying WAY too long to be flying

without your pants on.   Get those things done so you can

see some better speed! 



The trim tab sounds OK, but I think on the cut-in one you

may end up wanting to go 2-3" (maybe closer to 3) deep.

You can always regulate the sensitivity by the servo speed.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		               Thanks guys.  I was thinking of a tab cut into the rudder 

 maybe 6” long centered just above the tail light and below the next 

 stiffener where the rudder would still have the bottom rib.  I would 

 re-enforce the rudder by adding tiny triangle ribs and a spar to support 

 the hinge.  My first concern is to ensure I don’t reduce the strength of 

 the rudder from top to bottom.

 

             You brought up a good point about wheel pants, since I still 

 don’t have mine on.  So I was thinking the 6” long tab would be maybe 

 1.5” to 2” deep to have enough throw for any condition and not be too 

 sensitive.  I would ensure that it would swing in the direction that is 

 mostly needed and use the same bent forward lip that goes under the spar 

 like on the elevator trim tab.

 

  

 

 Thank You

 *Ray Doerr*

 40250

ericparlow(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Ray,



My rudder trim is exactly as you discribe.

It uses a Ray Allen servo inside the rudder.

I'll take pictues tonight.



Eric Parlow

40014

N104EP



----Original Message Follows----

From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Electric Rudder Trim

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:50:56 -0600



             Thanks guys.  I was thinking of a tab cut into the rudder maybe 

6" long centered just above the tail light and below the next stiffener 

where the rudder would still have the bottom rib.  I would re-enforce the 

rudder by adding tiny triangle ribs and a spar to support the hinge.  My 

first concern is to ensure I don't reduce the strength of the rudder from 

top to bottom.



             You brought up a good point about wheel pants, since I still 

don't have mine on.  So I was thinking the 6" long tab would be maybe 1.5" 

to 2" deep to have enough throw for any condition and not be too sensitive.  

I would ensure that it would swing in the direction that is mostly needed 

and use the same bent forward lip that goes under the spar like on the 

elevator trim tab.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

40250



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:27 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Electric Rudder Trim



Ray,



Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Davis' 

site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2 " wide and 

5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how much bend to put in 

it.



Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed at 

cruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requirements also.  I know 

lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim tape to mount their trim 

tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when done AFTER the plane is painted.



Dean 40449



________________________________________________________________________

Interested in getting caught up on today's news?

Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. 

<http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/front.htm?csp 4>

Dsyvert(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

By copying the photos of Vic's plane I measured the hinge in Excel and came  up with what I think the dimensions are. My measurements are 1.5" wide by 11"  long. The hinge knuckles are 0.5 inches long or 1" of the pitch. The full open  width is 1.5" I am installing the electric trim on my rudder, but have not  closed it out yet. I have the same question as to the length. I am considering  making it just a little longer, maybe ~16" so I'd have more movement of the ball  to achieve more like 1 ball width. Nothing really scientific. 

  

 Dave Syvertson

 Empennage

 40625

  [quote][b]

armywrights(at)adelphia.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

There’s a guy building a -7 a couple of T-hangars down from me, and the stock 7 uses a spring bias system to introduce unequal aileron displacement to “trim” the airplane in roll.  Do you think that engineering a spring bias system coupled to the rudder cables themselves for yaw “trim” would help instead of developing a separate but interconnected system?  

   

Rob Wright  

#392  

Fuse  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]

 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Electric Rudder Trim  

  

   

            I’ve looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim’s site that Vic did and I was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was wanting to know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the tab as well as if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust.  I’m trying to figure out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my RV-10.  I was thinking of cutting the tab into the rudder like the elevator tab.  I would have to create a spar for the tab and the ruder and possible even be able to have the control linkage comes thru the spar as to not be seen from the outside.  

            Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr trim?  

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 CDNI Principal Engineer

 Sprint PCS

 16020 West 113th Street

 Lenexa, KS 66219

 Mailstop KSLNXK0101

 (913) 859-1414 (Office)

 (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)

 (913) 859-1234 (Fax)

 Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com   

   	  Quote: 	
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coop85(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

My Q2 had a spring bias system for pitch trim and so I have thought about this idea a few times but previously decided it wouldn’t work.  My concerns were that it’s not really a closed system since the rudder pedals are not connected on the firewall side.  However, it occurred to me that since we really only need to be able to put pressure pulling forward on the right rudder cable you probably could add a spring controlled by a lever on just that cable.  

   

One question for the group – I only needed a little rudder tab initially but after installing the wheel pants it’s significantly greater.  My plan is to eyeball and also re-measure the strut cover alignments, but any suggestions on tweaks that would help?  I need more right rudder than before so I’m guessing the left side is dragging a little and not aligned with the relative wind as well as the right.  

   

Marcus  

40286   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wright

 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:44 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Electric Rudder Trim  

  

   

There’s a guy building a -7 a couple of T-hangars down from me, and the stock 7 uses a spring bias system to introduce unequal aileron displacement to “trim” the airplane in roll.  Do you think that engineering a spring bias system coupled to the rudder cables themselves for yaw “trim” would help instead of developing a separate but interconnected system?  

   

Rob Wright  

#392  

Fuse  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]

 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Electric Rudder Trim  

  

   

            I’ve looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim’s site that Vic did and I was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was wanting to know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the tab as well as if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust.  I’m trying to figure out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my RV-10.  I was thinking of cutting the tab into the rudder like the elevator tab.  I would have to create a spar for the tab and the ruder and possible even be able to have the control linkage comes thru the spar as to not be seen from the outside.  

            Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr trim?  

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 CDNI Principal Engineer

 Sprint PCS

 16020 West 113th Street

 Lenexa, KS 66219

 Mailstop KSLNXK0101

 (913) 859-1414 (Office)

 (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)

 (913) 859-1234 (Fax)

 Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com   

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Remember too that Vic is running one of those Performance clone engines

(Ferrari "Arrest me Red") and a three blade plastic prop.  That is

clearly "hot rodding" by today's standards and a smile when I see

pictures of it.  Vic, thanks for thinking outside the box and building a

safe RV-10.



John Cox

#40600

--

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Electric Rudder Trim

 	  Dsyvert(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  By copying the photos of Vic's plane I measured the hinge in Excel and came  up with what I think the dimensions are. My measurements are 1.5" wide by 11"  long. The hinge knuckles are 0.5 inches long or 1" of the pitch. The full open  width is 1.5" I am installing the electric trim on my rudder, but have not  closed it out yet. I have the same question as to the length. I am considering  making it just a little longer, maybe ~16" so I'd have more movement of the ball  to achieve more like 1 ball width. Nothing really scientific. 

  

 Dave Syvertson

 Empennage

 40625

 	


Dave,

My phone has Vic's phone number memorized.  He is a great guy and very willing to help.

The servo is a T2-7A.  The Aircraft Spruce # is 11-11505 for the 'System'

The hinge is the 1.5" open (AS # Ms20257P4) and is 11" long.

The distance from the aft hinge surface to the center of the push rod hole is .5". 

I built mine to Vic's specs.  I hope to have pictures posted on my site in about 2 weeks when I have the tail feathers finished.

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Gary, Vic, Eric, Dave, et al.



The pictures sent from the various folks building rudder trim look great.

I have rudder trim in my Cherokee and that is one option that I am very

interested.



My dilemma is that I'm not the type to be able to take a picture and craft

my own design and implement.   However, I can follow instructions and

interpret drawings pretty good.



Some of the designs, like Vics, with just the hinge added to the rudder seem

pretty straight forward.  Although I do like the pictures that Eric just

sent with the trim built into the rudder.



I know that I'm probably asking a lot, but if any of you have spent a few

minutes and documented your procedures for constructing and assembling your

rudder trim mod, I know that myself and I'm sure that there are others that

would be very grateful.  That would certainly save us from re-inventing the

solution again.



Thanks,



bob



--

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

One very simple and very effective solution is just to buy the AeroTrim

servo as has been mentioned a number of times in the past.  It is simple and

works great.  It is a very easy installation.  The documentation comes with

the servo.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

--

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Jesse, you seem to be preaching in the wilderness.  I too use aerotrim and

love it.  Installation is quick and it works great, but it is hard to

convince some.

Gary Specketer

40274



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Aero-trim is pretty spiffy for an all in one package.  You can also roll

your own with a RAC T2-10A or T3-12A servo kit and a piece of scrap

hinge.  Basically the exact same thing as the Aero-trim and cheaper if I

recall correctly.



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 limbo 



--

bldgrv10450(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Steve



Nice job. I am interested in your trim system. Will you package a kit and 

offer it in some way?

Could this be installed in a completed rudder with reasonable effort?

Do you think the elevator or fuselage turbulence will affect trim authority 

in this location?

Will you install the fiberglass cap with screws?



Paul Grimstad

RV10 40450

Portland, OR 97219

---

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Maybe you should just call me John, then.  I wonder how many will know what

I am talking about.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Aerotrim runs less that $175 if you leave out the indicator and talk him

down a little (it's experimental so I don't need an STC, etc.).  I assume

the RAC has some kind of indicator output like the elevator servo.  That's

the only downside I have seen to the Aerotrim, but we just use the ball as

the indicator.  Aileron is easy to see so no indicator needed.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

capsteve

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: NIAGARA FALLS NY

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

Yeah, the plan is to eventually develop it to a kit for sale. It'll

be a while though, as I'm focusing on some other products first. That being

said, if you want I'll give you all my info and I'll supply the parts list

if you'd like to have the same setup. Almost like beta testing...

	The idea is to be able to retrofit complete rudders. Except for the

removal of the fiberglass lower cover, this will then be reattached with

screws for service. 

	I have the tab positioned below the elevator, which seems to be a

popular tab location from the photos of aircraft I've seen completed. Only

final testing will show any complications, but I think it'll be just fine.  

Steve

40205






Steve



Nice job. I am interested in your trim system. Will you package a kit and 

offer it in some way?

Could this be installed in a completed rudder with reasonable effort?

Do you think the elevator or fuselage turbulence will affect trim authority 

in this location?

Will you install the fiberglass cap with screws?



Paul Grimstad

RV10 40450

Portland, OR 97219

---

jwik(at)crary.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: Electric Rudder Trim

I get it,  as in Locusts and Wild Honey

 

 Jesse Saint wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  Maybe you should just call me John, then.  I wonder how many will know what I am talking about.  Do not archive.  Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com) www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694  --

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