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Price Increase Rant
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jlisler(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Today I placed a small order with Aircraft Spruce and was shocked at the 

price increases that have occured in the past year. I am in the final stages 

of completing my RV4 and needed a few minor items to finish off some small 

details. I always study the aircraft builders bible (ACS catalog) before 

ordering on line and was aware of the advertized price in the catalog. I was 

also aware that my catalog was a 2005/2006 edition and that the prices most 

likely had gone up. Well the prices had gone up 34% over the advertized 

price in the catalog . We are talking in one year! Whats the inflation rate? 

Maybe 5 or 6%? I just don't see a 34% increase. My wages don't increase at 

that rate per year. Everyone talks about attracting new persons into 

aviation but how many would take the plunge if they new prices for the 

material they are going to need is going to cost 1/3 more each year? Whats 

the game plan here? Bleed everyone death so that there will not be any 

general aviation in the future? It all seems self defeating. Drive your 

customer base out of flying and then you go next.



Maybe I should take up bass fishing. At least I could eat some fish that I 

catch in my $40,000 Ranger Bass boat that I pull to the lake in my $45,000 

diesel pick-up truck.



ACS does have excellent customer service though. I guess I just have to pay 

for it.



I feel much better now.



Jerry Isler

RV4 N455J

Donalsonville, GA

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Jerry Isler wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 ACS does have excellent customer service though. I guess I just have 

 to pay for it.



Depends on who you ask, I say no they do not even have good customer 
	


service, but we've been down this

road before.

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   I feel much better now.



 Jerry Isler

 RV4 N455J

 Donalsonville, GA

rocketbob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:24 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

I agree, I've noticed a lot of things have gone up.  Last summer a falcon altimeter was $180, now they are $240.  That's a 33% increase.



Regards,

Bob Japundza

RV-6 flying F1 under const.

do not archive 



On 2/1/07, Jerry Isler <jlisler(at)alltel.net (jlisler(at)alltel.net)> wrote:[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Isler" <jlisler(at)alltel.net (jlisler(at)alltel.net)>



Today I placed a small order with Aircraft Spruce and was shocked at the

price increases that have occured in the past year. I am in the final stages 

of completing my RV4 and needed a few minor items to finish off some small

details. I always study the aircraft builders bible (ACS catalog) before

ordering on line and was aware of the advertized price in the catalog. I was 

also aware that my catalog was a 2005/2006 edition and that the prices most

likely had gone up. Well the prices had gone up 34% over the advertized

price in the catalog . We are talking in one year! Whats the inflation rate? 

Maybe 5 or 6%? I just don't see a 34% increase. My wages don't increase at

that rate per year. Everyone talks about attracting new persons into

aviation but how many would take the plunge if they new prices for the 

material they are going to need is going to cost 1/3 more each year? Whats

the game plan here? Bleed everyone death so that there will not be any

general aviation in the future? It all seems self defeating. Drive your 

customer base out of flying and then you go next.



Maybe I should take up bass fishing. At least I could eat some fish that I

catch in my $40,000 Ranger Bass boat that I pull to the lake in my $45,000

diesel pick-up truck. 



[b]

Larry Bowen

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

A couple years ago I noticed the same thing, to a smaller extent.  I

questioned it while on the phone with them.  The rep's answer was very

rude and defensive.  When possible, I've shopped at Wicks ever since. 

There *are* alternatives...



-- 

Larry Bowen, RV-8/7

Larry(at)BowenAero.com

http://BowenAero.com



Jerry Isler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Today I placed a small order with Aircraft Spruce and was shocked at the

 price increases that have occured in the past year. I am in the final

 stages

 of completing my RV4 and needed a few minor items to finish off some small

 details. I always study the aircraft builders bible (ACS catalog) before

 ordering on line and was aware of the advertized price in the catalog. I

 was

 also aware that my catalog was a 2005/2006 edition and that the prices

 most

 likely had gone up. Well the prices had gone up 34% over the advertized

 price in the catalog . We are talking in one year! Whats the inflation

 rate?

 Maybe 5 or 6%? I just don't see a 34% increase. My wages don't increase at

 that rate per year. Everyone talks about attracting new persons into

 aviation but how many would take the plunge if they new prices for the

 material they are going to need is going to cost 1/3 more each year? Whats

 the game plan here? Bleed everyone death so that there will not be any

 general aviation in the future? It all seems self defeating. Drive your

 customer base out of flying and then you go next.



 Maybe I should take up bass fishing. At least I could eat some fish that I

 catch in my $40,000 Ranger Bass boat that I pull to the lake in my $45,000

 diesel pick-up truck.



 ACS does have excellent customer service though. I guess I just have to

 pay

 for it.



 I feel much better now.



 Jerry Isler

 RV4 N455J

 Donalsonville, GA

_________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress...

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Jerry,



Good rant, man.  Of course, your $85,000 rig to catch some pan fish does

put things in perspective.  My paying job is not defending ACS, but I

will tell you that their money grab may not be a bold and shameless as

it may appear.  We build some fairly large equipment that consumes

everything from several hundred pounds of stainless, to instruments, to

nuts/bolts/screws.  We would love to have gotten by with only a 33%

increase on many of these items.  



Anything that has a shipping component to it, be it inbound or outbound

or is non-retail, the price jumps have been WAY above the rate of

inflation.  The CPI is based, for the most part of foodstuffs and retail

items.  Target, Sams, Wallys, et al have ensured that retail items have

increased only modestly---but not so for specialty items.



Anyhow, until one does a direct comparison on purchased items from ACS,

Wicks and others, on items that are new to their stock (which fully

reflect their new prices, not some old dusty back-shelf item) can we

judge whether a little gougin' is goin' on.



Chuck Jensen

 

--

brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

I think their customer service is TERRIBLE.

http://brian76.mystarband.net/vendors.htm



brian



--

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Got a gift card for Christmas for $100.00 from the wife who attempted to buy 

the MA-1 Silver XXL jacket that the ACS 2005-2006 (red one) had listed as 

$89.95. They were out of stock so she bought the card. She also bought me an 

Icom handheld A-6 radio that was almost a hundred less than advertised in 

the same catalog.

I ordered the jacket 1-19-2007 on-line, used the gift card and was advised 

that it would be ordered drop shipped. Price ?...$89.95 plus tax & shipping. 

Estimated delivery date, within 14 days AFTER 2-4-2007. Jacket arrived 

Tuesday 1-30-2007. Tax & shipping added less than $20.00.   KABONG Do Not 

Archive HRII N561FS

"I shall return", fair price & service as promised.



---

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Exxon Mobile just posted the single largest profit of any US company ever, 

$39.5 billion for last year with a 6% decline in profits during the 4th 

QTR!!!!.  Now that is something to rant about.



You know, they could give away 100LL avgas and it would hardly affect their 

bottom line.  So why are they charging $4.25/gal at my local airport?



Answer:  Because they can, and if you show up here and need gas, you will pay.



Bob

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Bob wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Exxon Mobile just posted the single largest profit of any US company 

 ever, $39.5 billion for last year with a 6% decline in profits during 

 the 4th QTR!!!!.  Now that is something to rant about.


	




Exxon's 2006 revenue was reported as $377.64 billion. The $39.5 billion 

profit represents about a 10% margin that, while pretty good for a 

humongous corporation, is certainly not out of line. Corporations often 

expect to see a 10% profit on revenue.



The energy industry is bigger than most of us can comprehend and the 

large number of zeros can skew our perspective.



Sam Buchanan

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Now we are dancing around the edges of the truth.

Who supplies inflation numbers?

When's the last time they told you the truth?

Can you think of any (other) lies they've told you lately?



Charlie



Chuck Jensen wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Jerry,

 

 Good rant, man.  Of course, your $85,000 rig to catch some pan fish does

 put things in perspective.  My paying job is not defending ACS, but I

 will tell you that their money grab may not be a bold and shameless as

 it may appear.  We build some fairly large equipment that consumes

 everything from several hundred pounds of stainless, to instruments, to

 nuts/bolts/screws.  We would love to have gotten by with only a 33%

 increase on many of these items.  

 

 Anything that has a shipping component to it, be it inbound or outbound

 or is non-retail, the price jumps have been WAY above the rate of

 inflation.  The CPI is based, for the most part of foodstuffs and retail

 items.  Target, Sams, Wallys, et al have ensured that retail items have

 increased only modestly---but not so for specialty items.

 

 Anyhow, until one does a direct comparison on purchased items from ACS,

 Wicks and others, on items that are new to their stock (which fully

 reflect their new prices, not some old dusty back-shelf item) can we

 judge whether a little gougin' is goin' on.

 

 Chuck Jensen

  

 

 

 --

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Sam Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Bob wrote:

> 

>

> Exxon Mobile just posted the single largest profit of any US company 

> ever, $39.5 billion for last year with a 6% decline in profits during 

> the 4th QTR!!!!.  Now that is something to rant about.

 Exxon's 2006 revenue was reported as $377.64 billion. The $39.5 billion 

 profit represents about a 10% margin that, while pretty good for a 

 humongous corporation, is certainly not out of line. Corporations often 

 expect to see a 10% profit on revenue.

 The energy industry is bigger than most of us can comprehend and the 

 large number of zeros can skew our perspective.

 Sam Buchanan

I wouldn't disagree that zeros can skew perspective, but profit to 

revenue is a meaningless ratio, no matter what your accountant tries to 

tell you. What's their return on investment & how great is their risk?

Charlie

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Sam, with all due respect, the argument about 10% - 15% profits being

'reasonable' is a bit specious.  Size if everything.  If a small

business only earned 10% profit, they would be out of business tomorrow,

but for a commodities business operating on a mega-scale; a 10% - 15%

profit margin is humongous.  This is not to make light of the large

investment oil companies make, but one should not mistake volume of

business (measured in $) with the size of the enterprise.  A jeweler,

working out of his back room may sell a single $10,000,000

diamond...that does not make his a $10,000,000 business.  Oil companies

conduct huge transactional business every year, but Mobil is not as big

as $377B in revenue would seem to indicate.



For commodities and for enterprises on the scale of oil companies, a

3%-5% profit is very handsome indeed.  And remember, the $39B profit was

what they admitted to--after their accountants and cross border

maneuvering employed every machination know to man to minimize the

reported profit, knowing full well the rightful hew and cry that would

arise.



Mobile is getting no sympathy card from me.



Chuck Jensen



--

n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

 	  Quote: 	
		  >> 

>>

>> Exxon Mobile just posted the single largest profit of any US  

>> company ever, $39.5 billion for last year with a 6% decline in  

>> profits during the 4th QTR!!!!.  Now that is something to rant  

>> about.


	


The interesting thing to me is that this is a public company.  Anyone  

can share in the obscene profits by buying whatever proportion of the  

company they can afford.



I have found that energy companies, in general, may not be the best  

things to buy into, but go crazy if you think they are cleaning up.



Do not archive



Larry Pardue

Carlsbad, NM



http://n5lp.net

retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Uuum, not that I disagree with the gist of what you are saying, but what 

makes you think that a small business must make more than 10% to stay in 

business???  Profit is what is left after all expenses - including 

salaries for the owners, etc.   As long as a business breaks even after 

all expenses it can stay in business as long as the owners want it to.  

A not unusual method of operating a small business is to make sure there 

are no profits at all.  Distribute any potential profits to the owners 

and employees as salary and/or bonus and the profit disappears.  No 

profits and the business pays no taxes!



Dick Tasker



Chuck Jensen wrote:



[quote]



Sam, with all due respect, the argument about 10% - 15% profits being

'reasonable' is a bit specious.  Size if everything.  If a small

business only earned 10% profit, they would be out of business tomorrow,

but for a commodities business operating on a mega-scale; a 10% - 15%

profit margin is humongous.  This is not to make light of the large

investment oil companies make, but one should not mistake volume of

business (measured in $) with the size of the enterprise.  A jeweler,

working out of his back room may sell a single $10,000,000

diamond...that does not make his a $10,000,000 business.  Oil companies

conduct huge transactional business every year, but Mobil is not as big

as $377B in revenue would seem to indicate.



For commodities and for enterprises on the scale of oil companies, a

3%-5% profit is very handsome indeed.  And remember, the $39B profit was

what they admitted to--after their accountants and cross border

maneuvering employed every machination know to man to minimize the

reported profit, knowing full well the rightful hew and cry that would

arise.



Mobile is getting no sympathy card from me.



Chuck Jensen



--

wjoke(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

FWIW, I picked up my latest Aircraft Spruce order yesterday. The voice 

on the phone when I ordered was friendly and helpful, the order was made 

up and shipped promptly and arrived neatly and well packaged. The 

Aircraft Spruce pricing on an obscure size of 4130 streamline tubing was 

also about 40% less than Wicks (in that size, other sizes were 

comparable, some were higher).



So overall, and just for the record, my latest customer service with the 

guys in Corona was quite positive.



Generally steel and aluminum prices are all well up over the past year 

or two. Just the worldwide commodity market, good if you own a mine or a 

steel mill, less good if you are an end customer.



Jim Oke

RV-3, RV-6A



Wpg., MB



Brian Meyette wrote:

[quote] 



 I think their customer service is TERRIBLE.

 http://brian76.mystarband.net/vendors.htm



 brian



 --

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Yep...Did that for about 10 years....bought myself a JOB. Sometimes when 

times were tight guess who went without a paycheck. Big difference between 

PAYROLL & payday. Owners of a small business are trying to get past the next 

PAYROLL & employees are counting the hours until Friday. Sold out to larger 

Corp. put the money in the banks CD and withdrew a "paycheck". NO taxes ? ?, 

no workman's Comp. ???, no 401K donations....???.  KABONG

Do Not Archive



---

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

--> <retasker(at)optonline.net>



Uuum, not that I disagree with the gist of what you are saying, but what



makes you think that a small business must make more than 10% to stay in



business???  Profit is what is left after all expenses - including 

salaries for the owners, etc.   As long as a business breaks even after 

all expenses it can stay in business as long as the owners want it to.  

A not unusual method of operating a small business is to make sure there



are no profits at all.  Distribute any potential profits to the owners 

and employees as salary and/or bonus and the profit disappears.  No 

profits and the business pays no taxes!



WARNING: Your delete key is just to the right of your return key.



Dick,

The reason a 10% profit is an absolute minimum for a business (20%-30%

is actually needed) is, at that rate of profit, you will never be able

to pay back the investment, be it to yourself or an outside investor.

You can get 5.5% on a CD with NO risk. If you put $250,000 into starting

a business, you deserve 10%-15% return on your money for taking on such

a high risk investment.  Since 7 of 10 startup businesses fail in the

first three years, where are the 7 people who lost $250K each going to

recover their investment.  The only avenue of recovery is the 3 that are

successful must make enough profit to pay back the money lost by the

other 7 (even if it goes to themselves and not the other seven losers).

Even then, if all the 3 did was make back the total investment of the

10, then that's a breakeven situation--which is not justification for

the investments ever being made in the first place.  A business must be

able to pay back their investors (even if its yourself), organically

generate excess cash for expansion and build a cushion for the

inevitable business setback, and so forth.  10% ain't even close to

doing the job.



Of course, if the owners/managers/employees drain the company of its

profit by paying themselves inordinately high wages, then all they are

doing is fooling the owners or themselves.  Part of the problem in this

discussion is the definition of "profit".  First of all, there are

several definitions of profit including those for tax accounting and

those for GAAP accounting, and even those are subject to a level of

manipulation beyond belief.  There are scads of companies, small and

large, that were profitable every year of their existence...and they

went bankrupt.  That's why Don Trump said "Cash is King" as he was

headed toward bankruptcy (and didn't have any).  For start up to mid

sized companies, survival depends on cash flow, not profits.  On the

other hand, there are scads of big companies that are unprofitable every

year and yet they stay in business (think USAir, Delta, GM, Ford, et

al).



In closing, I would say that your definition of a business is not really

a business at all....that's just self-employment.  If you have a small

investment, there is very low risk of failure, you pay yourself a

going-wage and you 10% leftover, that's great, but what you describe is

not an ongoing enterprise or business if all you are doing is paying

yourself.



Anyone that thinks starting a company or running a small to mid sized

company is a get rich quick scheme--has obviously never done it.



Chuck

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Reference Exxon Mobil profits:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The interesting thing to me is that this is a public company.  Anyone

can share in the obscene profits by buying whatever proportion of the

company they can afford.



I have found that energy companies, in general, may not be the best

things to buy into, but go crazy if you think they are cleaning up.


	


After the Exxon Valdez disaster (I used to be an Alaskan resident), I find 

it very difficult to buy their retail gas, let alone become an owner of 

what I consider to be a socially irresponsible company.  Just my personal bias.



If I were to invest, I have often said at the beginning of my RV project I 

should have bought stock in UPS or FEDEX.  I seem to have paid them as much 

money as I have to Vans or ACS.  I am not criticizing UPS or FEDEX, but for 

those who have not yet started the building process, I recommend you budget 

a significant amount of money for shipping and handling.



Bob

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Chuck, I *have* done it, plus have taken new venture management  

classes while working on my MBA.  Other than my software consulting  

business (which you might have referred to as self-employment, even  

though we had employees), I've also worked for two other startups.   

You're making too many assumptions.



-Some business can be boot strapped for a lot less than $250k.  (Mine  

was bootstrapped with nothing, but software consulting is easy    

Others, of course, need a lot more than that just to get started and  

still may not make a profit for several years.



-Not all small businesses are still in the "pay back the investors"  

period.



-Most investors want to see a small business reinvest most / all  

profits back in the business.  They don't want dividends.  They want  

you to grow the business, and you do that through reinvesting  

everything you make.  They'll get their money when the company has  

grown to some size and they sell their interest.



-Many times, your investors also work for the company and take their  

compensation from salaries, thus avoiding double-taxation.  Remember,  

dividends are taxed twice: once as income for the company and a  

second time as income for the shareholder.



-10% profits can still represent a significant ROI for the  

investors.  Take the position I tried to place myself in (but made  

mistakes, so it didn't happen).  I had a software product we  

developed for a client, but I retained rights.  The software cost me  

nothing (initially), although I then bootstrapped additional  

development to turn it into a sellable product.  I spent probably  

about $50k getting it ready for marketing and my initial marketing  

attempts.  It was a unique product with a potential market of about  

100,000 installations, which would have included initial sales plus  

annual maintenance fees.  If I had spent $250k instead and brought in  

the right marketing and sales people, I would have quickly turned  

into a $10m (or more) annual business.  10% profits would have been  

$1m annually.  Not a bad annual return for a $250k investment.  Even  

if we'd only become a $1M company, 10% profit represents $100k  

annually, so the 7-year ROI for $250k would have been $700k.  That's  

not the $2.5m that an investor would have wanted (factor of 10), but  

it's nothing to sneeze at, either.



Remember that ultimately, when investing in a small business (or  

really any business), the investor's ROI is expected to come from  

capital gains, not dividends.  Investors want the stock price to go  

up, not see big dividends.  That's why everyone is so focused on the  

DOW or S&P 500, not the average annual dividends.  If you want steady  

annual dividends, you invest in utilities.



-Joe



do not archive

On Feb 2, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 

 --> <retasker(at)optonline.net>



 Uuum, not that I disagree with the gist of what you are saying, but  

 what



 makes you think that a small business must make more than 10% to  

 stay in



 business???  Profit is what is left after all expenses - including

 salaries for the owners, etc.   As long as a business breaks even  

 after

 all expenses it can stay in business as long as the owners want it to.

 A not unusual method of operating a small business is to make sure  

 there



 are no profits at all.  Distribute any potential profits to the owners

 and employees as salary and/or bonus and the profit disappears.  No

 profits and the business pays no taxes!



 WARNING: Your delete key is just to the right of your return key.



 Dick,

 The reason a 10% profit is an absolute minimum for a business (20%-30%

 is actually needed) is, at that rate of profit, you will never be able

 to pay back the investment, be it to yourself or an outside investor.

 You can get 5.5% on a CD with NO risk. If you put $250,000 into  

 starting

 a business, you deserve 10%-15% return on your money for taking on  

 such

 a high risk investment.  Since 7 of 10 startup businesses fail in the

 first three years, where are the 7 people who lost $250K each going to

 recover their investment.  The only avenue of recovery is the 3  

 that are

 successful must make enough profit to pay back the money lost by the

 other 7 (even if it goes to themselves and not the other seven  

 losers).

 Even then, if all the 3 did was make back the total investment of the

 10, then that's a breakeven situation--which is not justification for

 the investments ever being made in the first place.  A business  

 must be

 able to pay back their investors (even if its yourself), organically

 generate excess cash for expansion and build a cushion for the

 inevitable business setback, and so forth.  10% ain't even close to

 doing the job.



 Of course, if the owners/managers/employees drain the company of its

 profit by paying themselves inordinately high wages, then all they are

 doing is fooling the owners or themselves.  Part of the problem in  

 this

 discussion is the definition of "profit".  First of all, there are

 several definitions of profit including those for tax accounting and

 those for GAAP accounting, and even those are subject to a level of

 manipulation beyond belief.  There are scads of companies, small and

 large, that were profitable every year of their existence...and they

 went bankrupt.  That's why Don Trump said "Cash is King" as he was

 headed toward bankruptcy (and didn't have any).  For start up to mid

 sized companies, survival depends on cash flow, not profits.  On the

 other hand, there are scads of big companies that are unprofitable  

 every

 year and yet they stay in business (think USAir, Delta, GM, Ford, et

 al).



 In closing, I would say that your definition of a business is not  

 really

 a business at all....that's just self-employment.  If you have a small

 investment, there is very low risk of failure, you pay yourself a

 going-wage and you 10% leftover, that's great, but what you  

 describe is

 not an ongoing enterprise or business if all you are doing is paying

 yourself.



 Anyone that thinks starting a company or running a small to mid sized

 company is a get rich quick scheme--has obviously never done it.



 Chuck

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: Price Increase Rant

Chuck

GAAP shows money invested and that payback on the balance sheet, and as

such profit would be defined as the money left over after expenses and

servicing the debt of the company is an expense. So if you said 10%

before EBITDA than you would be correct there would be an issue, but if

it is 10% profit after EBITDA, then that would be a healthy return for

the company. Double digit profit is becoming a rare thing, rather a 7-8%

profit is seen as a good norm for a healthy company.

Dan 



--

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