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jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

RVs have a stick, not a yoke.  I don't know how you could possible take off with the stick locked with the passenger seat belt.  Good lord, wouldn't you feel it?  Even if you didn't do a proper pre-takeoff check list (talk about irresponsible), you would feel it during the take off roll.  Close the throttle and don't take off!  And once you take off, couldn't you reach over and unsnap the buckle real fast like?

Nothing about this case makes any sense.  I'm sticking with my original opinion -- this was the pilot's fault, start to finish, and absolutely no one else should have responsibility.



-J



On Feb 2, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Bob Collins wrote:

[quote]  If you read the testimony, it sounds like they're talking about two different events. 

  

 But I think the head puzzler is not about a crash at all but about the decision that took the city of Arlington off the HOOK. *If* the original argument is that the EAA had a responsibility to be sure Arlington provided proper fire services and THEN Arlington was judged to be not liable for whatever reason, how does that liability then somehow transfer to the EAA, which didn't own a fire department and didn't run an airport?

  

 Frankly, the county's use of not having a single judge in charge of a suit/trial from start to finish might be the stupidest thing in this whole affair.

  

 I keep going back, though, to the pilot. I don't fly an RV but what do people do with their hands when they're taxiing? Don't you put one of them on the yoke? I would think that from startup to take-off, you'd "feel" that the yoke wasn't free (if there'd been a safety belt wrapped around it), just from natural arm movement. But, like I said, I don't fly one.

  

 Do not archive



  

[b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

// RVs have a stick, not a yoke.  

  

 I knew  that. Improper choice of words -- err... word.

  

  // Nothing about this case makes any sense. I'm  sticking with my original opinion -- this was the pilot's fault, start to  finish, and absolutely no one else should have responsibility.

  

 It's a  matter of law in Washington state, however, rather than a matter of opinion,   which I guess is why it's in court. Although, as my story pointed out,  there's an issue of an interpretation of the statute that if one is found  responsible for his own death, that bars any future attempts to  damages.

  

 I presume  this will end up in an appeals court and I presume that will be a significant  point that will need to be clarified.

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

// Lynching the plaintif attorneys is an  attractive proposition, but we've got a lot of work to do first...like stringing  up the presiding judge and all of the jury.  

  

 Don't forget the county board and, oh yea, all of the  voters of Snohomish County.

  

 I thnk you're going to need a bigger tree, Dave.  (g)

  

 //  The Plaintif Attorneys only made their  client's argument.  It was the judge that made rulings and the jury that  found for the claimant.   

  

 It was actually several judges and, as the EAA motion  indicated, every one seemed to contradict the other. As I said earlier, that's a  pretty stupid way to run a court system but that's what the pols and the people  who voted set up.

  

  // Bob,  thanks for the article.  An interesting read to say the least. These things  are never clear cut.  If not with this judge, then eventually the  whole case is likely to turn on a couple of narrow legal principles about  assumed responsibility and resonableness of the responding rescue.  A jury  finding is much like instant replay in footballl--we have a call on the  field and it will take indisputable evidence to overturn  it.

  

 I did add both motions. Download at least the first one  and read it front to back. Once you do, I GUARANTEE everybody will put more care  into their preflight and, hopefully, into their flying. It's pretty graphic in  describing the pilots last moments. I know lots of people think it can't happen  to them. But it can. Very easily, I'm afraid, and we need to be more vigilant so  we don't end up in the same situation, and we don't expose our loved ones or  anyone else to a similar fate.

  

 If we tkae nothing  else away from this, hopefully we'll all take that away. We can fly better. We  can fly safer.

  

 Bob

  

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

The laws should reflect reasonable opinions.  Laws shouldn't be unreasonable.

-J



do not archive



On Feb 2, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Bob Collins wrote:

[quote]   // RVs have a stick, not a yoke.  

  

 I knew that. Improper choice of words -- err... word.

  

  // Nothing about this case makes any sense. I'm sticking with my original opinion -- this was the pilot's fault, start to finish, and absolutely no one else should have responsibility.

  

 It's a matter of law in Washington state, however, rather than a matter of opinion,  which I guess is why it's in court. Although, as my story pointed out, there's an issue of an interpretation of the statute that if one is found responsible for his own death, that bars any future attempts to damages.

  

 I presume this will end up in an appeals court and I presume that will be a significant point that will need to be clarified.

 [b]

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Bob,  

   

Assuming no wind and in this case it was negligible the stick is not needed for taxi unless you have a tailwheel aircraft.  In a tailwheel you need to keep the stick back which is where the belt would have held it.  It is in my checklist several times to check â€œControls free and correctâ€ as it is in every checklist I have ever seen.  I always do it without fail and especially do it just before take off when I have passengers on board.  I have had a passenger put their legs in such a way as to restrict the controls.  At takeoff I double check to make sure I have control.  

   

Check it and check it again.  

Tim

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Laws should reflect what the legislature enacted and the  people in the legislature should reflect the people who voted for  them.

  

 Let's face it, people usually don't pay attention to what  their lawmakers are doing. For the most part, we pay for our  indifference.

  

 do not archive

  

  



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph  Larson

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:02 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: pilot's family awarded  $10.5M

 

The laws should reflect reasonable opinions. Laws shouldn't be  unreasonable. 

 -J

 

 do not archive

 

  On Feb 2, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Bob Collins wrote:

 [quote]   //    RVs have a stick, not a yoke. 

   

   I    knew that. Improper choice of words -- err... word.

   

   //    Nothing about this case makes any sense. I'm sticking with my    original opinion -- this was the pilot's fault, start to finish, and    absolutely no one else should have responsibility.

   

   It's a    matter of law in Washington state, however, rather than a matter of opinion,    which I guess is why it's in court. Although, as my story pointed out, there's    an issue of an interpretation of the statute that if one is found responsible    for his own death, that bars any future attempts to    damages.

   

   I    presume this will end up in an appeals court and I presume that will be a    significant point that will need to be  clarified.

 [b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Bob raises a good point.  However, we never know about a law being run through committees until it gets scheduled to the floor for a vote .... and by then it's too late.  Like most things in the government, the lawmaking process is broke and needs fixing.  Instead of starting the lynching process with lawyers, maybe we should start with lobbyists.

 Linn

 

 Bob Collins wrote:

 [quote]         Laws should reflect what the legislature enacted and the people in the legislature should reflect the people who voted for them.

    

   Let's face it, people usually don't pay attention to what their lawmakers are doing. For the most part, we pay for our indifference.

    

   do not archive

    

    

   

      From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson

   Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:02 AM

   To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

   

   

 The laws should reflect reasonable opinions. Laws shouldn't be unreasonable.      

   -J

      

   do not archive

   

      On Feb 2, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Bob Collins wrote:

       	  Quote: 	
		       // RVs have a stick, not a yoke. 

     I knew that. Improper choice of words -- err... word.

          

     // Nothing about this case makes any sense. I'm sticking with my original opinion -- this was the pilot's fault, start to finish, and absolutely no one else should have responsibility.

     It's a matter of law in Washington state, however, rather than a matter of opinion, which I guess is why it's in court. Although, as my story pointed out, there's an issue of an interpretation of the statute that if one is found responsible for his own death, that bars any future attempts to damages.

     I presume this will end up in an appeals court and I presume that will be a significant point that will need to be clarified.

    

	
 [b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Yeah, but I'm just thinking pilots have got to put their  hand SOMEWHERE while taxiing and I'm just guessing that it would be on the stick  and it just seemed to me that if the stick were lashed down with the seat belt,  it'd be obvious within the first few seconds of putting the hand on it. Just the  at of grabbing the stick would cause it to move, I would think,  and the  lack of movement would be immediately obvious and at least make the pilot  wonder, "hey that doesn't feel right." But the victim here was a low-time pilot  and maybe he was preoccupied with trying to find the right runway or  something.  Pretty scary, when you think bout it, because I know *I've* had  things i've done in an airplane that make me still hit my forehead when I think  about it. ... which at least as made me a good one hand typist  (g)

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

I've learned from this thread.  I'll have a gust lock that I must remove before starting the engine instead of using a seat belt. Bob's 'well, DUH" statement hits close to home.  My twist to the 'old, bold pilot' is that 'an old pilot is one who survives all his (or her) stupid mistakes'.

 

 I'll use a pin to fix the control stick in one spot ...... and attach the mag switch key to it.  Or some variation on that idea ..... I'm not there yet.

 

 As for this particular incident, if it was caused by the 'seat belt gust lock', there were multiple places that it should have been caught ..... the least of them was a checklist with 'controls free and clear'.  We cannot be in a hurry when we fly, and we cannot do a proper preflight with folks standing arround asking questions and interrupting your normal flow of the preflight.  This ranks  right up there with having to be home.

 Linn

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

If Don had the controls strapped down on takeoff apparently he is not the only one to have made that mistake in an RV. This is from the current issue of IFR Magazineâ€™s annual â€œStupid Pilot Tricksâ€ column: â€œBest-in-Show for this category was the Georgia RV-6 pilot who flipped over during an aborted take-off at St. Simons  Island. It seems the right side passenger belt was still wrapped around the right stickâ€¦.â€   

   

Let me interject a personal and perhaps unfair observation in here. Don was a VERY smart guy. He struck me in the short time that I knew him as someone who was accustomed to excelling at anything he did. Here is the potentially unfair part:  There seemed to me to be that maybe he didnâ€™t take the challenges and responsibilities of flying quite as seriously as I think they should be taken, maybe like the guy driving in traffic with one arm over the back of the seat and his mind elsewhere. I could easily imagine him thinking of flying as just like driving with one more dimension to deal with. Why would one need a check-list for that?  

   

Terry

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Terry Watson wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		                   st2\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->             

If Don had the controls strapped down on takeoff apparently he is not the only one to have made that mistake in an RV. This is from the current issue of IFR Magazine’s annual “Stupid Pilot Tricks” column: “Best-in-Show for this category was the Georgia RV-6 pilot who flipped over during an aborted take-off at St. Simons   Island. It seems the right side passenger belt was still wrapped around the right stick….”    

    

Let me interject a personal and perhaps unfair observation in here. Don was a VERY smart guy. He struck me in the short time that I knew him as someone who was accustomed to excelling at anything he did. Here is the potentially unfair part:  There seemed to me to be that maybe he didn’t take the challenges and responsibilities of flying quite as seriously as I think they should be taken, maybe like the guy driving in traffic with one arm over the back of the seat and his mind elsewhere. I could easily imagine him thinking of flying as just like driving with one more dimension to deal with. Why would one need a check-list for that?   

    

Terry   

 	
 I've noticed two things in my short aviation 'career'.  One, we make the most mistakes when we're in a hurry ...... we cut corners on the preflight and launch unprepared.  The second thing is we get complacent and don't use a checklist ..... and yes, I'm guilty of that one fairly often ...... unless I'm in an airplane that I don't usually fly very often.  It's when we forget something rather important that we get caught.  I've had quite a few lessons over the 32 years I've been an aviator .... lessons gleaned from other's 'stupid pilot tricks'.  And some from my own escapes with the grim reaper.  Case in point:  My buddy lent his Baron to a nearby FBO owner and very experienced pilot in many aircraft.  They had some problems getting out of the hangar area ...... because the checklist was stowed the whole time.  They (the whole family) flew to the Bahamas.  The departure was significantly familiar to Don's.  All aboard perished, and when the flaming wreckage cooled down enoughfor an inspection ..... the gust lock was firmly installed.  Complacency and inattention to the little details will get us a very short item in the next days newspaper ...... unless we're famous, and it may last two days.  Over the years I've become a lot more safety concious ..... I'm trying to extend my lifeline ...... and don't mind chastising my fellow aviators for their transgressions.  I would hope that they would do the same for me.

 Linn

 do not archive

     [quote][b]

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Very true Bob,  

   

When I was first learning to fly my instructor made me put my hands in my lap when I taxied.  This was because I kept trying to steer the plane with the yoke.  In hind sight this might not have been such a great idea, but I always do a complete runup including a â€œFree and correctâ€ check of the controls.  

   

Tim

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

My gust locks are all internal to the cockpit.  PILOT's 

 seat belt for elevators/ailerons and a plastic gizmo on the

 pilots side for rudder.  I doubt that I could ever take-off

 with either installed.



 I also verify control surface movement during the ground

 inspection and during the runup checklist...making sure that

 each surface moves the way it should for the intended rudder

 or stick movement.



 Now if I ever do something suicidal like flying into icing

 weather, a mountain or take off with control locks installed,

 I do not want anyone sued for my stupidity.



 Ron Lee

 N54RL



     [quote][b]

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

And you can also blame the boobs (that would be us) who elected the  law makers.  I know there is no instant gratification like we (me  included) get from railing against the lawyers but why do we keep  evading our own responsibility in these matters?  

  

 Tracy Crook

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

For one I have never been successful at NOT electing somebody unless everyone thinks the same as me.  Plus you or I can’t possibly know what an elected person is going to think or do about most things.  Even what they campaign on isn’t going to be what they do per say.  In truth you are right, but in practicality, good luck.  

Tim  

Do Not Archive  

           

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook

 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:37 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M  

  

       

And you can also blame the boobs (that would be us) who elected the law makers.  I know there is no instant gratification like we (me included) get from railing against the lawyers but why do we keep evading our own responsibility in these matters?    

    

   

    

Tracy Crook  

  [quote]    

---

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Hmmm....

So if you decide to rob a bank & talk me into helping, should I go free 

when you go to jail?



Joseph Larson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It's not the lawyer's fault.  The job of the lawyer is to represent his 

 client.  Sounds like this lawyer is doing just that.  The fault belongs 

 to whoever first started blaming anyone beyond the pilot.  That might 

 have been an ambulance-chasing lawyer, but could be anyone in the family 

 or a family friend saying, "You're going to sue them, aren't you?"

 

 You can also blame the law makers for making laws too convoluted for any 

 reasonable person to follow.

 

 -J

 

 do not archive

 

 On Feb 2, 2007, at 12:06 AM, David Leonard wrote:

 

> Ok, that seems pretty much like the details..  Thanks Bob

>  

> NOW can we lynch the plantif lawyers???

>  

> 

>  

> Dave Leonard

>

>  

> On 2/1/07, *Bob Collins* <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net 

> <mailto:bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>> wrote:

>

>     

>     <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net <mailto:bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>>

>

>     I published the Hotline a day early (email subscribers will get it

>     tomorrow), because I finished the story today. But it's now

>     available online.

>

>     EAA asks court to overturn verdict in RV crash trial (

>     http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/eaa_court_motion.html)

>

>     Or the whole shootin' match

>

>     http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

>

morgjj

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 24

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

As much as we all would agree, unfortunately when one is dead, it is up to the survivors to determine when to sue. If you want to make  it  better, educate your family and friends about the risks and reason to sue or not sue.  It is human nature to want to find a cause for accidents. It is unfortunate that in todayâ€™s world, responsibility is not something that we want to take on, rather blame someone else or something.    

   

What ifâ€™s are never ending and usually something that someone can always come up with another. It seems to not stop with the first problem, but rather all the other things that could have happened afterwards.  In this case (I havenâ€™t seen the details, but play along),  if the pilot didnâ€™t check the control surfaces and that is what caused the accident, it should stop there rather than say that if the fire department was quick enough or if the airplane was strong enough, or if â€¦ ifâ€¦.ifâ€¦.  To the survivors, it is easier to want to blame the city or EAA or the fire department than except the facts that it just shouldnâ€™t have happened in the first place and was preventable.  

   

 In my mind, it should stop there. It never should have made it to the court room, but our system allows for that. If in fact there was a problem that was not pilot error, it would be important for a way to challenge the problem. In order to have that, you need to allow the cases without too much merit to present themselves just as much as the cases that seem open and shut.  That is what makes our system great. The downside of our system is that juries donâ€™t have the knowledge to make the judgments that we can. They might have never seen the inside of a small plane. They can only go on the facts presented in the case.  If the sides donâ€™t present the materials in a way that they can make a good decision, how can they do it?  We canâ€™t sit and criticize what they decided without knowing what they heard and saw. Using only what they heard and saw in court (and not your insider knowledge) as if you would make the same decision.

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

The other part of the problem is that jurors buy into the fiction that they  are not permitted to use their own judgment.  They are virtually  always instructed that they *must* apply the law as written and interpreted  to them by the judge and lawyers,  regardless of how absurd it may seem to  them.  If this was the intent of the gentlemen who established this  country's legal system, the jury of your peers would be counterproductive  and superfluous.  Why not have a panel of legal experts render the  verdict?

  

 The jury is there to act as a check on defective and  illogical laws.  When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as  most jurors do,  you preserve these defective laws.  The  same goes for those who vote for and support clearly unconstitutional  laws.  My guess is that this includes many here who complain loudly about  this particular case in which their own person ox was gored.

  

 If anyone is truly interested in the subject of jury powers, Google "fully  informed jurors".  

  

 Tracy Crook  (stepping down from soap box) 

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

// The  jury is there to act as a check on defective and illogical laws.   When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as most jurors do,  you  preserve these defective laws.  The same goes for those who vote  for and support clearly unconstitutional laws.  My guess is that this  includes many here who complain loudly about this particular case in which their  own person ox was gored.

   

 As the article pointe dout (and I sure hope  folks read it), the problem in this case wasn't identified as the instructions  the jurors got; it was the the instructions the jurors DIDN'T get.

  

  

 Do not  archive.



    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Those instructions were given in open court in front of the defense, plaintiff, jury and anyone in the courtroom. The legal team for the EAA and the Arlington flyin were grossly negligent in their duties. One of those idiots should have spoke up and objected right then... 

do not archive 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com

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