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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

If the instructions  were faulty, the defense attorneys were more culpable than that.  Jury  instructions are not extemporaneous.  Competing instructions are submitted  to the Judge, he blends them together, the blended instructions are then given  to the attorneys to give them an opportunity to object, then they are given to  the Jury.  However, if they may well have objected to the addition, or  omission, of parts of the instructions and the Judge decided against them.   Of course, the challenge to the instructions can then be a basis for an  appeal.  It's never simple.

  

 Chuck Jensen 

  

 

 --

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made  credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put  into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's  call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know  what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made  both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.  You  obviously didn't read any of them.  You're deciding that the legal team was  negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did  in  the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But  what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves  when the information is available, and then acting on their  ignorance.

[quote] You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive [b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact the pilot crashed  on his own and started the whole event. If there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse the award. 

off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype. 

do not archive 

         

     Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.  You obviously didn't read any of them.  You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did  in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance.

 	  Quote: 	
		   You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive 	


Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.  You obviously didn't read any of them.  You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did  in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance.

[quote] You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive 



====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

====================================

tronics.com

====================================



[b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

What exactly did you expect the defense team to do when the  judge barred the jury instructions, pull out a gun? It seems to me they're  availing themselves every legal remedy at their disposal; hardly indicative of  incompetence.

  

 and, again, if you read the papers, you'd see that the EAA  did, in fact, argue  that Corbitt was the cause of the crash, and you'd  also read that it was the one thing EVERYONE agreed on. However, without the  proper jury instructions -- as I see it -- that point would be irrelevant.  

  

 the chain of events that "start" a persons death don't  relieve the responsibility of others do their job. Otherwise we can all save a  lot of tax money by disbanding our police, medical, and fire teams. A crook  broke into your home? don't call the cops. YOU chose to live there.  Wrap  yourself around the tree. Suffer, sucker, you shouldn't have been out  driving.

  

 If you read the papers, you'll see that that the two sides  were talking about two different incidents and it came down to  whether (1)  Corbitt was alive  when the fire department arrive and (2) whether the fire  department gave rip about #1. 

  

 What caused the crash wasn't much of an argument because it  wasn't one of the questions. And in a court of law, unfortunately, the law is  what matters. I suspect the EAA attorneys, simply because they ARE competent,  will have more success before another judge. I also would think Snohomish County  would take another look at a system where several judges pop in and out of one  case.  That, to me, is what sunk the EAA in this case.   

  

 When the music stopped, the wrong judge was sitting in the  chair.

  

 Do not archive



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  n801bh(at)netzero.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:55  AM

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re:  pilot's family awarded $10.5M

 

 

I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let  the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt  experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot becomes  careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar till he was  blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact the pilot  crashed  on his own and started the whole event. If there is a silver  lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse the  award. 

off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype. 

do not archive 

                                 

                                                 Well, to the original point, like I              said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain              instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to              the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to              the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know              what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article,              I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more              information.  You obviously didn't read any of them.               You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your              part to inform yourself of what they did  in the first place.              Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's              even worse in this country right now is people not informing              themselves when the information is available, and then acting on              their ignorance.

 	  Quote: 	
		   You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive 	


Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made  credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put  into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's  call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know  what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made  both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.  You  obviously didn't read any of them.  You're deciding that the legal team was  negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did  in  the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But  what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves  when the information is available, and then acting on their  ignorance.

[quote] You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive 



tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

tronics.com







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



[b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

At 07:55 AM 2/6/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let 

the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt 

experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot 

becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar 

till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact 

the pilot crashed  on his own and started the whole event. If there is a 

silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse 

the award.


	


My one beef with your statement is the assumption that "homebuilt 

experimental" is more

hazardous than a Cessna type aircraft.  Take a Cessna, secure the yoke full 

aft with

a seatbelt and the outcome would probably be the same as with an RV.



In my opinion, if that is what happened in this case then it was pure 100% 

pilot error.



Ron Lee

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

//In my opinion, if that is what happened in this case then it was pure 100%

pilot error.

The cause of the accident -- at the moment -- is not the subject of the

court case.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

An update on the story following this morning's hearing can be found here.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Interesting read, particularly the Judges observation of the Jurors and

being able to judge the state of mind of the Jurors as they heard

conflicting, emotional and inflammatory evidence.  If the Judge is this

capable of reading the Juror's minds, I wonder why he had them bother

deliberate, since he must have already known the outcome...kind of like

those fortune tellers who get in a car wreck--makes you wonder?



I would hope that the EAA and NWEAA lawyers made an extensive argument

that they were not passing the buck to the Arlington Fire Department and

that in fact, it was the most professionally trained, equipped and able

group available to provide this service and that it was reasonable to

rely on the city Fire and Rescue squad to provide Fire and Rescue

services.  It would have been different if they'd contract with Joe Smoo

who had a pick up truck with a 50 gallon drum of water and a 20' hose.



Hopefully, the EAA and NWEAA will have picked up clues from the Judge's

writings and allow them to better tailor their arguments on appeal, even

if they may not be allowed to raise new ones.  Finally, the Judge's

comment that he would have coached Corbitt's attorneys to go after the

EAA because of their deep pockets.  The Judge seemed to be able to read

the Juror's minds, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I can read the

Judge's mind!!!



To my untrained eye, its not exactly "home cooking" but the stove was

warm.  Fortunately, in our legal system, that's what Appeals Courts are

for--to remove the home field advantage.  



Chuck Jensen

 

--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

 	  Quote: 	
		   services.  It would have been different if they'd contract 

 with Joe Smoo who had a pick up truck with a 50 gallon drum 

 of water and a 20' hose.


	


You know I was thinking about this as I was driving home last night. I

didn't see any indication that ANY of the first responders testified in this

case.  Now, they may have; I just didn't see any indication or reference to

the fact they did. Given that there was testimony that they were rather

slow...hooked up the hose to the wrong line, waited to put all their

equipment on etc. (note: I'm not saying they did; I'm just saying that

that's what one side said they did), I wonder why the EAA didn't put someone

from the fire department on to say exactly what they did?  Especially since

the city had immunity in the case.



 	  Quote: 	
		   To my untrained eye, its not exactly "home cooking" but the 

 stove was warm.  Fortunately, in our legal system, that's 

 what Appeals Courts are for--to remove the home field advantage.  


	


I like the chances in the appeals process.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

I am bothered by the outcome of this litigation for another reason. It seems to set a precedent that could affect any fly-in. Pilots are often invited  fly-ins large or small, sponsored by individuals, fly-in communities, clubs, EAA Chapters or whatever. Many (possibly most) small airports do not have manned emergency equipment located on the field 24/7. Certainly, typical airparks do not have EMTs and manned fire equipment on the field. Will the result of this litigation now imply that any invited gathering of aircraft require contracted emergency equipment and personnel that meet some arbitrary response standards to be present during all aircraft movements?

 

 Puzzled

 

 Richard Dudley

 

 Bob Collins wrote:

 [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)



        	  Quote: 	
		  services.  It would have been different if they'd contract 

with Joe Smoo who had a pick up truck with a 50 gallon drum 

of water and a 20' hose.

    	
   

You know I was thinking about this as I was driving home last night. I

didn't see any indication that ANY of the first responders testified in this

case.  Now, they may have; I just didn't see any indication or reference to

the fact they did. Given that there was testimony that they were rather

slow...hooked up the hose to the wrong line, waited to put all their

equipment on etc. (note: I'm not saying they did; I'm just saying that

that's what one side said they did), I wonder why the EAA didn't put someone

from the fire department on to say exactly what they did?  Especially since

the city had immunity in the case.



        	  Quote: 	
		  To my untrained eye, its not exactly "home cooking" but the 

stove was warm.  Fortunately, in our legal system, that's 

what Appeals Courts are for--to remove the home field advantage.  

    	
   

I like the chances in the appeals process.



Do not archive

  	
 [b]

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

I did read your article Bob (pretty good job too) and I was satisfied that  the jury did get the basic facts of the incident.

  

   My point about the jury instructions was that a jury SHOULD NOT  NEED to be told to use their common sense of justice.  They should do  that even if it requires them to ignore whatever instructions they were  given.  THESE are the instructions that I am concerned that the jury did  not receive.  

  

 I'm sure that the lawyers would call this heresy (because this is  a nation of laws, bla, bla, bla....) but again, if this was the absolute  intent of the Founders, a jury would not only be unnecessary, they would be  counterproductive.    

  

 There was a reason for having a jury instead of a panel of legal experts  reach a verdict.  Ultimately, I don't really care what instructions  they were given. I maintain that this jury failed in their duty to fulfill that  reason.

  

 Tracy Crook

larry(at)ncproto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Bob,  

Thank you for your diligence.  Your most recent posting citing Judge Kurtz’s denial for a retrial is most discouraging.  Sorry, but it only serves to deepen my convictions about how our legal system is screwed up.  I have not read anything yet that has swayed me from my original thinking and my original statement to “lynch the family and lawyers” (figuratively speaking, of course).  

   

In speaking with a pilot friend who saw the local news coverage of this incident, Don Corbitt’s wife was evidently interviewed and made comments to the effect that her lawsuit was warranted and would be a service to make things better ……..  However anyone wants to frame this; I’ll call bullshit again.  The reasoning and actions of Mrs. Corbitt, her lawyers, the judges, the jurors, and the lawmakers that have allowed this to happen; all make me so ticked off …………  they all seem to be so inept at creating for themselves whatever they need to be happy that they justify stealing it from someone else …… and that happens to be me and every other happy productive EAA member and payer of insurance.  Yes, I do hope Mrs. Corbitt and her lawyers read this …… no vitriol; just plain statements of reason and fact.    

   

Larry E. James  

Bellevue, WA  

   

       [quote][b]

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Larry James  wrote...

  

  

Thank you for your diligence.   Your most recent posting citing Judge Kurtz’s denial for a retrial is most  discouraging.  Sorry, but it only serves to deepen my convictions about how  our legal system is screwed up.  I have not read anything yet that has  swayed me from my original thinking and my original statement to “lynch the  family and lawyers” (figuratively speaking, of  course). 

  

In speaking with a pilot friend who  saw the local news coverage of this incident, Don Corbitt’s wife was evidently  interviewed and made comments to the effect that her lawsuit was warranted and  would be a service to make things better ……..  However anyone wants to  frame this; I’ll call bullshit again.  The reasoning and actions of Mrs.  Corbitt, her lawyers, the judges, the jurors, and the lawmakers that have  allowed this to happen; all make me so ticked off …………  they all seem to be  so inept at creating for themselves whatever they need to be happy that they  justify stealing it from someone else …… and that happens to be me and every  other happy productive EAA member and payer of insurance.  Yes, I do hope  Mrs. Corbitt and her lawyers read this …… no vitriol; just plain statements of  reason and fact.   

  

Larry, 

I may not feel the same  level of vitriol as you do (though its up there a little bit), I do note  that anytime I hear a "victim" say, he/she is only doing to correct a wrong  and make it better for the next  person, this is most often code words for what they really mean  to say, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!". 

  

Chuck

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



[b]

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

You could take a statement like "I'm doing it to fix a problem" seriously if the person then donated the bulk of the judgment to an appropriate charity.  When does that happen?  Which tells you that Chuck is right -- it's about the money.

-Joe



do not archive



On Feb 8, 2007, at 9:16 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:

[quote]

I may not feel the same level of vitriol as you do (though its up there a little bit), I do note that anytime I hear a "victim" say, he/she is only doing to correct a wrong and make it better for the next person, this is most often code words for what they really mean to say, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!".

 

[b]

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

The RIGHT thing to do would be for the widow to donate the millions back into the EAA Young Eagles program in the name of her husband. If it were not for the EAA there wouldn't be a Vans RV series for her late husband to fly.. Well, at least try to fly.... 

I really hope her and her lawyers are reading this thread... 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> wrote:

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  Larry James wrote...

  

  

Thank you for your diligence.  Your most recent posting citing Judge Kurtz’s denial for a retrial is most discouraging.  Sorry, but it only serves to deepen my convictions about how our legal system is screwed up.  I have not read anything yet that has swayed me from my original thinking and my original statement to “lynch the family and lawyers” (figuratively speaking, of course). 

  

In speaking with a pilot friend who saw the local news coverage of this incident, Don Corbitt’s wife was evidently interviewed and made comments to the effect that her lawsuit was warranted and would be a service to make things better ……..  However anyone wants to frame this; I’ll call bullshit again.  The reasoning and actions of Mrs. Corbitt, her lawyers, the judges, the jurors, and the lawmakers that have allowed this to happen; all make me so ticked off …………  they all seem to be so inept at creating for themselves whatever they need to be happy that they justify stealing it from someone else …… and that happens to be me and every other happy productive EAA member and payer of insurance.  Yes, I do hope Mrs. Corbitt and her lawyers read this …… no vitriol; just plain statements of reason and fact.   

  

Larry, 

I may not feel the same level of vitriol as you do (though its up there a little bit), I do note that anytime I hear a "victim" say, he/she is only doing to correct a wrong and make it better for the next person, this is most often code words for what they really mean to say, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!". 

  

Chuck

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com







====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

====================================

tronics.com

====================================



[b]

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

At 02:29 PM 2/8/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The RIGHT thing to do would be for the widow to donate the millions back 

into the EAA Young Eagles program in the name of her husband. If it were 

not for the EAA there wouldn't be a Vans RV series for her late husband to 

fly.. Well, at least try to fly....


	


If this judgment stands then giving that money to YE or Mother Teresa will mean

nothing.  The chilling effect on fly-ins may cause many to cease to exist.



Ron Lee

Jeff Linebaugh

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Collierville, TN

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

I am thinking that perhaps we should get Matt Dralle to start a new â€œlistâ€â€¦    



Title?    â€œre: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M-listâ€  

 

jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net

_________________
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
Collierville, TN

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M

I just want to say again that since the list now has a browsable Web-based interface (more like VAF), that lots of people whose messages go to the entire list, are actually posting by way of the Web interface. This "problem" of people getting messageson subjects they don't want, is only going to get worse as a result of the invitation by Matt to begin "experiencing" the RV List via this interface. Like it or not -- and Im not saying -- this results in two entirely separate means of communicating for the "Web-based" folks vs the "e-mai-based" folks.



I don't have an answer for this and it's not my job anyway. Just an alert that perhaps folks should discuss this directly with Matt as we're only doing what we were invited to do.



Thanks for your consideration.



Do not archive

(and this function has no purpose on the Web-interace)



BTW, if you want to see another example of the "disconnect" between the two interfaces. Go to forums.matronics.com and take a look at your message.



Warm regards,



Bob

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

 	  ronlee(at)pcisys.net wrote: 	
		  At 02:29 PM 2/8/2007, you wrote:



If this judgment stands then giving that money to YE or Mother Teresa will mean

nothing.  The chilling effect on fly-ins may cause many to cease to exist.



Ron Lee 	


Possibly. But this suit is five years old, I believe, so there should have been some "chilling effect" just by the fact the parties have been fighting it for 5 years. I'd be interested what changes folks have noticed in the NW Fly-in since it was filed. If there haven't been any as a result of the obvious threat even prior to the ruling, I'm not sure it will have lasting implications.



I'll tell you one thing, though, having read the account of the gentleman who was first on the scene, I'll make sure my preflights take twice as long as they do now.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M

Jeff Linebaugh wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am thinking that perhaps we should get Matt Dralle to start a new 

 “list”…



 Title? “re: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M-list”



 Jeff Linebaugh



 jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net



I certainly agree, as I contribute yet more to this thread.
	




and do not archive does belong

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