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planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

Hi Guys,

             Descussing transponders lately , John noted that he can fly

all over the place without one....



  As "I" said , I needed one because  Class "B" is all over me... and with elec start , I need it to fly in the Mode "C" ring....



 Besides Class "B" (MPLS)  we also have a St Paul Airport ( Holman) which is Class "D"



 Our little UL field is close to Holman Field....One of the local UL flyers

was in the area flying some Light High wing plane

...a small Jet  , on approach,( not so small ) WIZZED right by him.

Around 1,000 ft AGL



 SCARED the crap outa him....



   He didn't show up on ATC radar.... If he would have had a Transponder

ATC would have given more "Separation".... that's their job....



  Needless to say , the guy was going to buy a transponder for just that reason....



 When yer this close to all this busy traffic....it can get dangerous...

 Even the Vortices off those planes...



  Gotta Fly...

Mike in MN

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Transponder for separation

Not disagreeing with anything you are saying, but (as Paul Harvey says) here is the rest of the story...

ATC should have seen the dude in the light high wing even without a transponder. ATC radar ought to be able to pick up primary targets with no trouble, unless he was a long way from the radar site. 

Having spent a career in ATC, half of it after I started flying ultralights, I have a pretty good idea how well ultralight aircraft show up on radar, so here's how it works. 

The Quicksilver type ultralights with a jungle gym of wires and tubes going everywhere show up almost as well as the Goodyear blimp. A Kolb paints at least as good as a Cessna 152, which is sort of the baseline primary. 

One caveat: there is a blind speed of 60 mph, which is a function of the radar sweep. If you are flying tangentially to the radar sweep at 60 mph, in the same direction the antenna is turning, you are invisible as a primary, no matter how much metal you have hanging off. Or if you are not moving, you are invisible.  The radar eliminates stationary targets.

If the controller turns his radar down to eliminate clutter, and takes it down too far, he won't pick up primaries. That is not your fault, it is his.

He should have had it up enough to see the dude in the light sport and call primary traffic for the jet. Since he didn't, his bad.

If the dude in the light sport had been monitoring approach freq for the airport in question, he would have known about the jet on approach. His bad. Unless the jet pilot failed to check in on unicom, his bad. Always monitor the appropriate frequency, whether you have a transponder or not. 

And finally, if you are a genuine Part 103 Ultralight, then you are not legally an airplane, and ATC is not responsible to separate you from anything, although they will separate "real airplanes" from all known traffic, even ultralights, because it is easier than filling our forms for midairs/near midairs. 

Having said all that, transponders are a Good Thing. And cheaper on ebay. which is where I got mine.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

30 years ATC, retired, TRI ATCT

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

 	  Quote: 	
		   Having said all that, transponders are a Good Thing. And cheaper on ebay.

which is where I got mine.
	




I like that idea. What do I need to know to purchase one that will be

compatible with my Rotax 503?



-Ken Fackler

Kolb Mark II / N722KM

Rochester MI

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

You need a 12 volt battery to give you a good clean twelve volts to run it, 

and a regulator/rectifier to keep the battery charged. Aside from that, just 

don't hook it's wires up wrong, or all of it's smoke will leak out.

Right now there is one on ebay that is new and cheap, but there is 

apparently a mandatory FAA mod that needs to be done to make older 

transponders legal, so beware. The mod is referenced in the ebay ad.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Transponder for separation

 	  planecrazzzy wrote: 	
		  



 Our little UL field is close to Holman Field....One of the local UL flyers

was in the area flying some Light High wing plane

...a small Jet  , on approach,( not so small ) WIZZED right by him.

Around 1,000 ft AGL



 SCARED the crap outa him....



   He didn't show up on ATC radar.... If he would have had a Transponder

ATC would have given more "Separation".... that's their job....



 	




With a transponder you will show up on TCAS, which is far more valuable to jet traffic than ATC.   Even when ATC is busy, and not talking to you, the TCAS always shows traffic in the area that have transponders and gives a warning if it calculates a possible collision.  ATC is a big help, but we always look at the TCAS when there is lots of GA around.   TCAS will warn most jets and large turboprops of your prescence even if ATC does not.  Most piston planes do not have TCAS, so its ATC or visual for those, but they are usually flying much slower.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

Mike (planecrazzy) wrote...

 	  Quote: 	
		   

   As "I" said , I needed one [a transponder] because

 Class "B" is
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   all over me... and with elec start , I need it to

 fly in the Mode "C" ring....


	


Mike -



What difference does having electric start make re:

needing a transponder?



Arty



DO NOT ARCHIVE 

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Transponder for separation

 	  Quote: 	
		  Even when ATC is busy, and not talking to you, the TCAS always shows traffic in the area that have transponders and gives a warning if it calculates a possible collision. 	




Just for your info, the TCAS display in the cockpit of those jet aircraft show the distance to the target accurately BUT the bearing can be off. EG. Iv'e done many ILS approaches in VMC conditions with traffic ahead and established on the localizer with visual contact with them, i.e. directly in line between me and the runway, but the TCAS display showed them about 20 degrees off to the left. So if they're trying to see you based on that TCAS display info only, they may not be looking at exactly the right place to see you, plus if your transponder doesn't have altitude mode they wont know your relative height compared to them. And also, if your transponder doesn't transmit altitude information their TCAS only gives a warning of your presence and NOT avoidance information, they need both parameters to produce avoidance guidance.



Finaly, please be aware that if your mixing it with the 'heavies', their proceedures etc  at these relatively low levels keep their heads inside the cockpit quite a bit of the time which cuts down on the time to look out the window and see you. It's a very busy phase of flight for them.



Fly safe !       David.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Transponder for separation

Arty,



Actually, the electric starter per se has nothing to do with the Mode C rule. From the EAA website, I copied the following:



MODE C



There are two exceptions to the Mode C transponder requirement in the FAA regulation Part 91. One for gliders, balloons, and those aircraft which do not have an electrical system, and a second exemption for those who do not have a transponder installed, or who's transponder is not functioning.



First, aircraft which were not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system can operate within the mode C Vail without a transponder. This is allowed by FAR 91.215(b)(3), which states:



(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conductedâ€”



(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and



(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower;



Note that this exception does not allow operations within Class B or C airspace, but only within the 30 nautical mile mode C "veil" which exists around the primary airport in Class B airspace.



The second exception authorizes air traffic control (ATC) to allow any aircraft to deviate from mode C requirements. This exception is outlined in FAR 91.215(d), which states:



(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:



(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.



(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.



(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.



Note that there is no specific requirement for the request for deviation to come to ATC through any particular means. The request can be made by telephone or by radio. Note too that if the aircraft is not equipped with a transponder at all, the request must be made at least an hour before the operation is to take place, but if the aircraft has a transponder installed that is malfunctioning the request can be made at any time.



NO RADIO



No radio operations may be conducted in Class D airspace as long as the Air Traffic Control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace provides the pilot permission to operate without a radio. The ATC Facility you would contact is the air traffic control tower overseeing the airspace. The pilot should call the particular ATC tower responsible and submit his request including the estimated time of arrival, type and color of the aircraft. The tower will typically then ask the pilot to enter the airspace in a particular manner and within a specific time frame. The regulation dealing with this permission is as follows:



â€œ91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.



(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with Â§Â§ 91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class D airspace area.



(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.



Summary:



As you can see, by combining the deviations allowed in the transponder and radio communications requirements, a pilot could operate an aircraft in Class D airspace that lies within the mode C veil even though the aircraft is not equipped with a radio or a transponder so long as the aircraft meets the requirements of the mode C deviation, and the pilot requests a deviation from the two-way radio communications requirement for the Class D airspace.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: Transponder for separation

If you don't have electric start, the FAA will pretty much consider that 

your aircraft has no "real" electrical system even though you might have a 

battery and charging system. And therefore are not required to have a 

transponder.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Transponder for separation

Richard,



Your interpretation is as good as any and probably correct from a practical standpoint. FAA has written rules without explicitly defining terms which are open to various interpretations. This is just one example. Another that affects UL flyers is the flying over "congested area" rule. Since these and other terms are not defined explicitly by the FAA,  we are left to our own devices to interpret them for ourselves... and defend our interpretations if push comes to shove. 



I know of no one who has been called on the carpet by the FAA for flying low and slow aircraft within Mode C with an electrical system but without a functioning transponder. However, I was contacted via an FBO where I landed, by a controller in Omaha once when I flew below their Class C shelf without a transponder with Mode C and a dysfunctional radio. He said he had no way of knowing what my altitude was so he could not effectively keep aircraft separated from me. I politely reminded him that no radio nor transponder of any type was required equipment where I was flying and that it was up to him to either assume that I was flying below the shelf or to be more certain by routing all traffic around me. He agreed, reluctantly that was his only choice with the current rules. I have flown for years under the Buffalo (KBUF) class C shelf without radio contact or transponder equipment and never received such a call from any controller. Obviously, interpretation and attempts to enforce rules are not universal amongst the FAA regions.  I now have a transponder and regularly monitor BUF approach freq. 

do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Transponder for separation

Thom --



Not to change the subject (nor change the point of your message),

"congested area" is defined, somewhat:



=========================================================



"General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8700.1".



    The congested nature of an area is defined by what exists on the

surface, not the size of the area. While the presence of the

nonparticipating public is the most important determination of

congested, the area may also be congested with structures or objects.

An area considered congested for airplane operations could be equally

congested for helicopters. If an airplane flying over a congested area

at less than 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL) is in violation of 14

CFR § 91.119(b), the area may also be a congested area for a

helicopter conducting external load operations. However, the most

important word in this concept is 'over.' Helicopters can operate over

relatively small uncongested areas because of their maneuvering

abilities.



    (b) Densely Populated Area. Title 14 CFR §§ 91.313 and 133.45(d)

use the term "densely populated" area. Those areas of a city, town, or

settlement that contain a large number of occupied homes, factories,

stores, schools, and other structures are considered densely

populated. Additionally, a densely populated area may not contain any

buildings but could consist of a large gathering of persons on a

beach, at an airshow, at a ball game, or at a fairground. NOTE: While

the presence of the nonparticipating public is the most important

determination of congested, this definition also applies to

structures, buildings and personal property. The congested nature of

an area is defined by what exists on the surface, not the size of the

area.



=========================================================



http://blogs.chron.com/lightflight/archives/2006/02/defining_conges.html



  -- Robert

On 2/13/07, Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Richard,



 Your interpretation is as good as any and probably correct from a practical standpoint. FAA has written rules without explicitly defining terms which are open to various interpretations. This is just one example. Another that affects UL flyers is the flying over "congested area" rule. Since these and other terms are not defined explicitly by the FAA,  we are left to our own devices to interpret them for ourselves... and defend our interpretations if push comes to shove.



 I know of no one who has been called on the carpet by the FAA for flying low and slow aircraft within Mode C with an electrical system but without a functioning transponder. However, I was contacted via an FBO where I landed, by a controller in Omaha once when I flew below their Class C shelf without a transponder with Mode C and a dysfunctional radio. He said he had no way of knowing what my altitude was so he could not effectively keep aircraft separated from me. I politely reminded him that no radio nor transponder of any type was required equipment where I was flying and that it was up to him to either assume that I was flying below the shelf or to be more certain by routing all traffic around me. He agreed, reluctantly that was his only choice with the current rules. I have flown for years under the Buffalo (KBUF) class C shelf without radio contact or transponder equipment and never received such a call from any controller. Obviously, interpretation and attempts to enf!

  orce rules are not universal amongst the FAA regions.  I now have a transponder and regularly monitor BUF approach freq.

 do not archive



 --------

 Thom in Buffalo

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Congested area - was transponder separation

Robert,



I appreciate your clarifying response. I've not seen this before. My inquiries to the FAA and EAA for explicit definitions of this term have yeilded nothing of substance. Unfortunately, this clarification still uses unquantifiable terms, so it is still not really explicit. That said, the definition I've always used for congested area is an area in which I cannot with some confidence land the aricraft without damage to other's property or person. That being the case, a congested area depends largely on the type of aircraft I'm flying. A Kolb Firestar's congested area by this definition would be much different from that of a Mooney. My definition of a congested area if flying  gyroplane would be different still, due to its ability to land in very small areas.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: Transponder for separation

My feeling is that if I can fly through an area and continually be in

gliding distance of a suitable emergency landing site (e.g., golf course,

large back yard, etc.), then it is neither congested or densely populated.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Transponder for separation

Thom --



I think the spirit of the definition would, unfortunately, have to

exclude the skill of the pilot.  I.e., you might be able to land in a

field without affecting anything there, but I might not be able to.

So, the FAA would probably cite you if it thought it was possible for

you (or anyone) to affect any structure, etc.



Besides, we may have some cavalier idea about the "spirit" of the

rule, but I'm sure the FAA has different ideas.  



Oh, and, what I find lacking in the "Order 8700.1" is the scenario

where there is a "congested" field surrounded by miles and miles of

uncongested fields.  Assuming the congested field is, say, an acre or

less, then when I fly over it I have ample areas for a safe landing.

Only a total breakup of the aircraft would endanger the

structures/people below me, yet by the Order 8700.1 definition, I

should not fly OVER that congested field.  That's simply not logical.



  -- Robert

On 2/13/07, Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Robert,



 I appreciate your clarifying response. I've not seen this before. My inquiries to the FAA and EAA for explicit definitions of this term have yeilded nothing of substance. Unfortunately, this clarification still uses unquantifiable terms, so it is still not really explicit. That said, the definition I've always used for congested area is an area in which I cannot with some confidence land the aricraft without damage to other's property or person. That being the case, a congested area depends largely on the type of aircraft I'm flying. A Kolb Firestar's congested area by this definition would be much different from that of a Mooney. My definition of a congested area if flying  gyroplane would be different still, due to its ability to land in very small areas.



 do not archive



 --------

 Thom in Buffalo





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94739#94739

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Transponder for separation

The Key West voltage regulator ($60-$65) does not require a battery and

will put out about 12 Amps at 13.8vdc from a Rotax 503.  Transponder with

or without encoder take about 1.6A.  Plus you'll need Antenna, cable,

circuit breaker.



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 You need a 12 volt battery to give you a good clean twelve volts to run

 it,

 and a regulator/rectifier to keep the battery charged.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: Transponder for separation

At 12:20 PM 2/13/2007, Robert Laird wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



...what I find lacking in the "Order 8700.1" is the scenario

where there is a "congested" field surrounded by miles and miles of

uncongested fields.  Assuming the congested field is, say, an acre or

less, then when I fly over it I have ample areas for a safe landing.

Only a total breakup of the aircraft would endanger the

structures/people below me...


	


The "order 8700" is actually part of a document for evaluating helicopter 

external load operations... which, like ultralight flying, cannot be 

conducted over congested areas.



This gets discussed quite a bit on the PPG list.  Two PPG pilots recently 

got nailed on a congested area rap for crossing a 4 lane highway during 

rush hour-- not flying over it for an extended time, but simply crossing 

it.  A PPG, of course, can land nearly anywhere, but looking at the aerial 

photos of the area it's clearly a bad place to fly... open areas 

interspersed with congested areas, and though they stayed (or at least 

claimed they did) over the open areas (except for the road), there were 

enough people close enough that somebody was bound to get pissed off.



I look at it a bit differently.  The ability to make a safe landing is one 

thing, but if you're over mountains or forest you may well not be able to 

make a safe landing, but those areas aren't considered 

"congested".  Remember that ultralights need have no inspections, so 

structural failure isn't out of the question (else why are so many BRS 

systems sold?).  But you don't need to have a total structural failure to 

endanger somebody... what if your muffler goes through the prop, or some 

other part comes loose?  Falling debris could kill somebody directly under 

the plane even though the airplane can easily glide to a safe landing some 

distance away.



Looking only at landing areas, you could make a case for flying (airspace 

issues aside) directly over Manhattan, as long as you were within gliding 

distance of Central Park.  I think the feds would consider Manhattan 

"congested".



In the end, though, it usually comes down to whether you piss somebody off, 

or have an accident that the FAA can't ignore.  Cross over the edge of town 

at 1000', nobody notices.  Do it at 200' and people call the cops.



I have a document somewhere with a bunch of related information and 

specific rulings... if anybody's interested I'll dig it up and post it here.



                                 -Dana



--

--

Don't put it off, procrastinate today.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Transponder for separation

.....I have a document somewhere with a bunch of related information and

specific rulings... if anybody's interested I'll dig it up and post it here.....

Dana,



Please post what you have. If it is online, then a link will do, at least for me.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

I would still like to have a 12V battery in the circuit. I am using a Terra 

720 handheld as my "installed" radio, and wired it so that the aircraft's 

12V (including motorcycle battery) system ties into the radio's power leads, 

same circuit my transponder is on. Tried the radio without the 10 AA 

batteries it normally has, and it was a whining, howling mess. Stuck the 10 

AA's in it and it quieted down nicely. If the radio did that without it's 

usual onboard batteries, wonder how the transponder would do if the 12V 

battery was not in the circuit? Moral to the story, I am convinced that 

batteries make great sponges for sucking up random electrical noise and 

damping odd transients. And I am using a Key West voltage regulator.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

In a message dated 2/13/2007 1:16:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  d-m-hague(at)comcast.net write

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  Remember    that ultralights need have no inspections, so 

structural failure isn't out    of the question (else why are so many BRS 

systems  sold?). 	
 

 Hi Dana,

 I take issue with this statement.  The FAA does not require  inspections but I think that most of us do them. Also I am not so sure that my  Firefly is prone to structural failure. The reason that I put a BRS on my  Firefly is because I can. They were not available for my Long EZ or any  other aircraft that I flew. Don't mean to jump on you but I hate to see  statements about UL's that lead the average person to draw the conclusion that  they are fragile unsafe machines.

  

 Steve

 Firefly 007 on Floats

  

  [quote][b]

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: Transponder for separation

At 01:24 PM 2/13/2007, Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Please post what you have. If it is online, then a link will do, at least 

for me.


	


OK, this is what I have... bits and pieces, in no particular order:



from http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_102_00.pdf:

(CHAPTER 102. EVALUATE A PART 133 CONGESTED AREA PLAN (CAP))

(a) Congested Area. The congested nature

of an area is defined by what exists on the surface, not

the size of the area. While the presence of the nonparticipating

public is the most important determination

of congested, the area may also be congested with

structures or objects. An area considered congested for

airplane operations could be equally congested for

helicopters. If an airplane flying over a congested area

at less than 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL) is in

violation of 14 CFR § 91.119(b), the area may also be

a congested area for a helicopter conducting externalload

operations. However, the most important word in

this concept is over. Helicopters can operate over relatively

small uncongested areas because of their maneuvering

abilities.

from http://www.ntsb.gov/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4188.PDF:

NTSB Order No. EA-4188, about low flying over a highway:



..The deputy sheriff riding in the passenger seat

testified that the aircraft operated over the freeway for at

least 30 seconds, at an altitude of 75-100 feet....

..In the Board's view, even if Interstate 5, a major

California freeway, is not "bumper to bumper" on a late Saturday

afternoon, moderate traffic in every lane still renders it

"congested," for purposes of the regulation. See also

Administrator v. Dutton, NTSB Order No. EA-3204 (1990)(Moderate

traffic on a highway at 12:55 p.m. is a congested area for

purposes of the minimum safe altitude regulation).9



from http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3646.PDF

..the Shepard Mesa subdivision -- comprised of a minimum of

20 houses, in an area approximately .5 mi. x .66 mi.7 -- would

qualify as a congested area.... "the aircraft flew at least as low as

300 feet."

DMH note:  .33 square miles = 211 acres, average 10 acre lots (!)



from http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI568Y2001.html

IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY (RULES OF THE AIR) ORDER, 2001

  "congested area" means in relation to a city, town or settlement, an area 

substantially used for residential, commercial or recreational purposes 

without adequate safe forced landing areas"

DMH note:  Not U.S., but interesting that other countries DO define it.



from http://www.faa.gov/programs/en/ane/noise/submit.cfm:

There is no regulatory definition of 'congested area'. Administrative case 

law has determined what is congested on a case-by-case basis. [Case 

references are available on request]). The public should be aware that an 

area does not have to be completely free of persons or properties to be 

considered noncongested. Additionally, it is possible that small, 

noncongested areas as small as an acre or two may allow aerobatics to be 

performed without violating 91.303's stipulations.



from 

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=1200&file=1200jar.htm, 

a discussion of prposed new European regulations:

"Hostile environments," as defined under JAR-OPS 3.480, include areas where 

"a safe forced landing cannot be accomplished because the surface is 

inadequate"; where there is "an unacceptable risk of endangering persons or 

property on the ground"; and "those parts of a congested area without 

adequate safe forced landing areas."...



"Congested areas," as defined in JAR-OPS 3, are essentially any densely 

populated town or city where no open spaces exist to permit a safe 

emergency landing in the event of an engine failure.



At The Hague meeting, industry and regulatory representatives agreed that 

the "congested area" concept is made redundant by the distinction between 

"hostile" and "non-hostile" environments...



Another concept created by JAR-OPS 3 was that of "exposure times." 

Performance Class 1, Category A helicopters can fly over hostile and 

congested areas, but JAR-OPS 3 allows Performance 2, Category A helicopters 

to fly over hostile, non-congested areas with an exposure time, the length 

of which depends on a target engine failure probability of 5 x 10-8, 

according to Jim Lyons, secretary of the JAA’s Helicopter Subcommittee and 

a CAA official in Britain.



This translates, in practical terms, to exposures ranging from a few 

seconds to several minutes.



*       *       *       *       *



Unfortunately, the phrase "congested area of a city, town, or settlement, 

or over any open air assembly of persons" has not yet been specifically 

defined by the FAA. The FAA has stated in a 1979 Legal Opinion that it will 

be determined on a case-by-case basis. Below is a copy of the Opinion--note 

the FAR references have changed.



__________________________

"In response to your letter dated August 28, 1979, and subsequent telephone 

conversation, we offer the following answers to your three questions. The 

facts on which our interpretations are based are as follows:

A fixed wing aircraft operating at an altitude of 600 feet flew directly 

over a populated subdivision of Prince William County, Virginia. The 

subdivision consisted of at least 40 residential homes on one acre lots. 

While operating in this area, the aircraft made a number of steep turns 

over one of these houses.

1. What is the interpretation of the term "congested area of a city, town 

or settlement" as that term is used in Section 91.79(b) of the FARs?

The meaning of the term "congested area" is determined on a case-by-case 

basis. It first appeared in the Air Commerce Regulations of 1926. No 

abstract regulatory definition has yet been developed. However, the 

following guidelines indicate the interpretations of the Civil Aeronautics 

board (now National Transportation Safety Board) in attempting to give 

meaning to the term.

a. The purpose of the rule is to provide minimum safe altitudes for flight 

and to provide adequate protection to persons on the ground. Thus, it 

distinguishes flight over sparsely settled areas as well as large 

metropolitan areas from low flying aircraft. Thus, size of the area is not 

controlling, and violations of the rule have been sustained for operation 

of aircraft: (i) over a small congested area consisting of approximately 10 

houses and a school (Allman, 5 C.A.B. 8 (1940)); (ii) over campus of a 

university (Tobin, 5 C.A.B. 162, 164(1941); (iii) over a beach area along a 

highway, and (iv) over a boy's camp where there were numerous people on the 

docks and children at play on shore.

b. The presence of people is important to the determination of whether a 

particular area is "congested." Thus, no violation was found in the case of 

a flight over a large shop building and four one-family dwellings because, 

in the words of the CAB examiner, "it is not known (to the court) whether 

the dwellings were occupied." In that case, the area surrounding the 

buildings was open, flat and semiarid.

c. The term has been interpreted to prohibit overflights that cut the 

corners of large, heavily congested residential areas.

As made clear in FAR 91.79, the congested area must be an area of a city, 

town, or settlement.

2. What is the interpretation of the term "sparsely populated areas" as 

contained in Section 91.79(c)?

While this term is not expressly defined, we can conclude that it is 

something other than a congested area under Section 91.79(a). A subdivision 

of at least 40 occupied residential homes on adjacent one acre lots in 

Price William County, VA, would not be considered a sparsely populated 

area. Such a subdivision would well constitute a "settlement" under the rule.



Please feel free to contact us if we can be of further assistance.



Sincerely,



EDWARD P. FABERMAN

Acting Assistant Chief Counsel

Regulation and Enforcement Division

Office of the Chief Counsel"

                                 -Dana

--

--

Don't put it off, procrastinate today.

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