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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
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Hi Bob and all,
A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the
following site :
http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf
Seems much interesting to me.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
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|
At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote:
Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably
used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training
programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000
charters to "say what you do, do what you say".
The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably
loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text
for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week
long training session.
The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is
either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes
described therein. Of course, when some quality issue
pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe
the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap
can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with.
Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate
reliability of a solder joint depends on some really
simple and readily observable characteristics. For
your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good
solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be
joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement
call that can be honed only with some practice. Get
some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox
parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your
workbench fastening things together with solder and
inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating
your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing
a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with
a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for
heat-on-the-joint.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like
the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF
your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say."
But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in
your ability to produce very serviceable solder
joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time
and worry with some hands-on experience.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
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|
I don't work in the ISO9000 environment (at least not yet; medicine
has its Kennedys, Kassabaums and Hillary-in -'08-Clintons who'd drag
us into a similar abyss at their first opportunity), but the ISO9000
seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so
you'll pay more."
I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct
sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here.
Have I got it wrong?
do not archive
-Bill B
On 2/14/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote:
>
><Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the following
>site :
>
>http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf
Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably
used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training
programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000
charters to "say what you do, do what you say".
The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably
loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text
for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week
long training session.
The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is
either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes
described therein. Of course, when some quality issue
pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe
the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap
can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with.
Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate
reliability of a solder joint depends on some really
simple and readily observable characteristics. For
your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good
solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be
joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement
call that can be honed only with some practice. Get
some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox
parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your
workbench fastening things together with solder and
inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating
your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing
a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with
a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for
heat-on-the-joint.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like
the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF
your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say."
But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in
your ability to produce very serviceable solder
joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time
and worry with some hands-on experience.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
|
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
Bill Boyd a écrit :
| Quote: | but the ISO9000
seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so
you'll pay more."
...
I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct
sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here.
Have I got it wrong?
|
Hey Bill,
Is US quality management really much better than ISO 9000, or is it just
another manifestation of "NIH" ?
Any comments on the technical content of the document ?
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
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N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
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As with most government and large bureaucracy-initiated things, the
Law of Unintended Consequences often overshadows the original
intent. When the government mandated air bags, children started
dying. When they mandated childproof caps on medicine, accidental
poisonings increased. I'm sure this new FAA NextGen initiative will
result in more fatal crashes, as people find they cannot afford the
user fees and the ADS-B equipment that will be replacing radar, and
so they fly in the system without the ground support they used to have.
When one of our customers implemented ISO-9000, the effect was to
force them to buy inferior products from us when a newer, better
product was available. But wait, you say, ISO-9000 is supposed to
improve quality! Ha! It improves the APPEARANCE of quality. One of
the mandates of ISO-9000 is that the documentation has to match the
product. So, when we found and fixed a number of bugs in one of our
products, we tried to ship the new products to our customer. But
they could not take the product, because they had written their own
user manuals, and now they had no staff resources to update the
manuals. So they ordered us to continue shipping the old product,
full of bugs, until such time as they could update their
documentation. That turned out to be more than a year.
I trust ISO-9000 about as much as I trusted the Malcolm Baldridge
award when it went to Cadillac in the same year that they were found
at the bottom of the Consumer Reports reliability scale.
Dave Morris
At 03:14 PM 2/14/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: |
I don't work in the ISO9000 environment (at least not yet; medicine
has its Kennedys, Kassabaums and Hillary-in -'08-Clintons who'd drag
us into a similar abyss at their first opportunity), but the ISO9000
seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so
you'll pay more."
I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct
sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here.
Have I got it wrong?
do not archive
-Bill B
On 2/14/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:
>
><nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
>At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >
> ><Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>
> >
> >Hi Bob and all,
> >
> >A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the following
> >site :
> >
> >http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/A
> nnex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf
>
> Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably
> used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training
> programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000
> charters to "say what you do, do what you say".
>
> The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably
> loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text
> for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week
> long training session.
>
> The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is
> either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes
> described therein. Of course, when some quality issue
> pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe
> the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap
> can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with.
>
> Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate
> reliability of a solder joint depends on some really
> simple and readily observable characteristics. For
> your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good
> solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be
> joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement
> call that can be honed only with some practice. Get
> some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox
> parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your
> workbench fastening things together with solder and
> inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating
> your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing
> a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with
> a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for
> heat-on-the-joint.
>
> I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like
> the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF
> your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say."
> But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in
> your ability to produce very serviceable solder
> joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time
> and worry with some hands-on experience.
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
> ( what ever you do must be exercised )
> ( EVERY day . . . )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> ----------------------------------------
>
|
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john(at)ballofshame.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
You don't have it wrong but that's because ISO9000 says nothing about the
quality of the end product. All being ISO9000 certified means is you've
documented the processes you use and you perform periodic reviews (I'm WAY
oversimplifying and paraphrasing here but that's basically it).
The idea is that you document the key processes so that results are
repeatable. They can be repeatably bad or repeatably good. Think of it
as the commercial version of "mil-spec". Things can be spec'd to turn out
like junk but you know that every one is junky in exactly the same way 
-John
www.ballofshame.com
| Quote: |
I don't work in the ISO9000 environment (at least not yet; medicine
has its Kennedys, Kassabaums and Hillary-in -'08-Clintons who'd drag
us into a similar abyss at their first opportunity), but the ISO9000
seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so
you'll pay more."
I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct
sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here.
Have I got it wrong?
do not archive
-Bill B
On 2/14/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:
>
> <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
> At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >
> ><Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>
> >
> >Hi Bob and all,
> >
> >A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the
> following
> >site :
> >
> >http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf
>
> Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably
> used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training
> programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000
> charters to "say what you do, do what you say".
>
> The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably
> loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text
> for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week
> long training session.
>
> The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is
> either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes
> described therein. Of course, when some quality issue
> pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe
> the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap
> can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with.
>
> Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate
> reliability of a solder joint depends on some really
> simple and readily observable characteristics. For
> your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good
> solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be
> joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement
> call that can be honed only with some practice. Get
> some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox
> parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your
> workbench fastening things together with solder and
> inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating
> your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing
> a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with
> a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for
> heat-on-the-joint.
>
> I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like
> the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF
> your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say."
> But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in
> your ability to produce very serviceable solder
> joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time
> and worry with some hands-on experience.
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
> ( what ever you do must be exercised )
> ( EVERY day . . . )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> ----------------------------------------
|
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
At 02:02 PM 2/14/2007 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
You don't have it wrong but that's because ISO9000 says nothing about the
quality of the end product. All being ISO9000 certified means is you've
documented the processes you use and you perform periodic reviews (I'm WAY
oversimplifying and paraphrasing here but that's basically it).
The idea is that you document the key processes so that results are
repeatable. They can be repeatably bad or repeatably good. Think of it
as the commercial version of "mil-spec". Things can be spec'd to turn out
like junk but you know that every one is junky in exactly the same way
|
Yup. You got it. The fly in the soup is that one presumes that:
(1) the process is golden.
(2) the folks who describe the process used language
that paints the same image in the reader's mind
as the writer had when the words were written.
(3) the reader can read and understand what is read.
(4) if product doesn't come out as depicted in the
process, it's presumed to be a problem with folks
not following the rules.
The whole idea was that proper documentation for any
process could replace mentoring, apprenticeship, and
replace dependency on continuous refinement of skills
through experience.
When I know that the ISO audit folks are going to be
in the area, I'm careful to be out of the area. I'd
hate to embarrass my boss. Bottom line is that documents
crafted to satisfy the ISO9000 model are seldom very
useful to craftsmen who strive to understand the processes
they're using.
Bob . . .
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walter.fellows(at)gmail.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
Gilles
Thanks for providing the reference document.
Walter
On 2/14/07, Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr (Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr)> wrote:[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee < Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr (Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr)>
Bill Boyd a écrit :
| Quote: | but the ISO9000
seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so
you'll pay more."
...
> I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct
|
| Quote: | sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here.
Have I got it wrong?
|
Hey Bill,
Is US quality management really much better than ISO 9000, or is it just
another manifestation of "NIH" ?
Any comments on the technical content of the document ?
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forthe many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - NEW MATRONICS=======================
[b]
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Dan Reeves
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
Exactly!
Nothing against great doco and processes but, in my opinion, the real goal of ISO, CMM, etc is to make people Plug and Play.
After all, who needs a highly skilled Robert L. Nuckoll's for example when you can Unplug him and Play someone else who has their handy-dandy, repeatable, ISO, CMM, certified, process in hand? (Rhetorical question,,,,I do!!!)
Creativity? ISO, CMM, etc are the kiss of death in this regard. A process is like a road map with one road on it. Hit a roadblock and good luck getting anyone to realize there are a million other roads that will take you to the same place.
Tools? I hear there are great tools out there like laser scapal's,,,doesn't make me want let someone who is unskilled anywhere near me even though they have a great tool.
Managers seem to confuse the concept that great tools make the highly skilled more productive,,,,they don't make the unskilled skilled.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
At 02:02 PM 2/14/2007 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: john(at)ballofshame.com
You don't have it wrong but that's because ISO9000 says nothing about the
quality of the end product. All being ISO9000 certified means is you've
documented the processes you use and you perform periodic reviews (I'm WAY
oversimplifying and paraphrasing here but that's basically it).
The idea is that you document the key processes so that results are
repeatable. They can be repeatably bad or repeatably good. Think of it
as the commercial version of "mil-spec". Things can be spec'd to turn out
like junk but you know that every one is junky in exactly the same way
|
Yup. You got it. The fly in the soup is that one presumes that:
(1) the process is golden.
(2) the folks who describe the process used language
that paints the same image in the reader's mind
as the writer had when the words were written.
(3) the reader can read and understand what is read.
(4) if product doesn't come out as depicted in the
process, it's presumed to be a problem with folks
not following the rules.
The whole idea was that proper documentation for any
process could replace mentoring, apprenticeship, and
replace dependency on continuous refinement of skills
through experience.
When I know that the ISO audit folks are We won't tell. Get more on [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ]shows you hate to love[/url]
(and love to hate): [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ]Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.[/url] [quote][b]
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
At 10:31 PM 2/14/2007 -0600, you wrote:
| Quote: | > The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is
> either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes
> described therein. Of course, when some quality issue
> pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe
> the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap
> can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with.
Quality circles, TQM, 6-Sigma, and all the rest now in the dust
bin....the ISO business seems to have more legs than most of
the others, tho. After awhile you'll spend most of your time
tracking performance instead of performing. I guess humans are
just hell-bent to quantify everything.
|
Not all humans, just those tasked with 'managing' processes
they do not understand. The Policy and Procedure meme is
a "Virus of the Mind". See . . .
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind.html
Some such virii have run their course in the adventures
of human kind, others are still growing and there are
certainly new ones yet to germinate, gestate and
run their courses.
I'm working a noise issue on a motor right now that
is plagued with a variety of memes . . . all of which
push us away from the best-we-know-how-to-do, add weight
to the airplane, generate cert programs that will run
months, and produce far too many customers who will
remember unhappy experiences with out product. The
science for the solution is stone simple, light,
and an excellent example of how two gray-haired ol'
farts sat down and pooled their collective understanding
and experience.
Of course, this runs against the ISO9000 and FAR memes.
I have suggested on occasion that our official ISO9000
documentation package could be reduced to one page that
states, "Hire smart folks, give them authority and then
run out ahead of your troops removing impediments to
progress."
Instead, all of the folks I work with are suffering
various forms of paralysis that arise from their own
intellectual virii. My task is made several times
more difficult because I have to take on the role
of physician specializing in maladies that have
nothing to do with engineering. Its a dirty job but
somebody's got to do it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
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list(at)toddheffley.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
|
|
Had to rant.
For those of you who have not had the pleasure of working under these
tyanical systems...
When you hear the words Six Sigma, be prepared to stop what you are
doing and build some spreadsheets, attend MANY meetings, and synergize
team-to-team stratagies to maximize future deliverables.
BUT MOST OF ALL, YOU WILL STOP PRODUCING USEFUL
products/services/advancements.....PERIOD.
do not archive
Todd
--
Todd Heffleytodd(at)toddheffley.com
(817)845-0145
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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: Hand soldering reliability |
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On Behalf Of Todd Heffley
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:29 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Hand soldering reliability
--> <list(at)toddheffley.com>
Had to rant.
For those of you who have not had the pleasure of working under these
tyanical systems...
When you hear the words Six Sigma, be prepared to stop what you are
doing and build some spreadsheets, attend MANY meetings, and synergize
team-to-team stratagies to maximize future deliverables.
BUT MOST OF ALL, YOU WILL STOP PRODUCING USEFUL
products/services/advancements.....PERIOD.
****
Yes, but the one piece that you will finally be able to produce will be
PERFECT...or at least, it will match the imperfect paperwork that weighs
as much as the part.
Six Sigma is an attempt to rely on a system instead of people, but then,
since imperfect people are running the Six Sigma program, the results
are often predictable, if unproductive. Nonetheless, a well controlled
and documented process is invaluable and pays manifold dividends later.
Chuck
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