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Oil in air cooled engines

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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

The other day I was talking to a friend of mine and he stated that you  could ONLY use NON-detergent oil in air-cooled aircraft  engines such as a Lycoming.  My immediate reaction was "why?".  He  couldn't answer me and I have yet to find anyone who can.  I sorta think it  one of those "because we always done it that way" answers.  If I was to get  one, which I'm not going to do, the first thing I would have done was put  synthetic oil in it.  I might have been screwing up.  So if anyone can  give me an answer, I might sleep tonight.

 

  

Larry, www.SkyHawg.com,  N1345L   [quote][b]

agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

I worked for a Ford  dealer in the 90s. Ford has used the same axel in the Crown Vic type cars for  almost ever. In the mid 90s, one year they changed to synthetic lube in the  differentials, no other change. All of a sudden they had lots of trouble with  differential bearings and sometimes in trying to remove the bearings for  replacement, the case was ruined because the bearings were frozen (rusted) in so  bad that they could not be removed. Seams that pure synthetic oil has no coating  action to prevent rust when not in use.  MY FIRSTHAND TWO BIT  EXPERIENCE.  do not archive

  

 Aaron  Gustafson

  

 >>> the  first thing I would have done was put synthetic oil in it.  I might have  been screwing up.  So if anyone can give me an answer, I might sleep  tonight.<<<

 [quote]   

    

  	  Quote: 	
		  



	
[b]

crvsecretary(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

Hello Larry:

    

   I agree that the only good reason for the response is "we've always done it that way", especially in light of the fact that the "Lycosaurus" is such ancient technology non-detergent oil just MIGHT be the best choice !!

    

   However, forward-thinking homebuilders have choices.  Your choice of an H-D is a great example: H-D chose to improve thier design with modern materials, efficient manufacturing methods, and performance innovations over the years, and Lycoming chose not to.  So, to compliment these changes, I only use semi-synthetic motorcycle oil in MY Evo-powered TourGlide and not the SAE 60 straight-weight as recommended for the Knucklehead.

    

   I am thinking VERY strongly in installing a Twin-Cam in my 601XL - I just hope the engine proves itself in homebuilts.  You are an inspiration to us that are not quite there yet.

    

   Thanks for all you do.

    

   Regards,

    

   Tracy Smith

   601XL

   N458XL (Reserved)

   Do Not Archive

    

    

    

    

    

  

 --

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

Well we have several cetified  aircooled Cont. and we only run non-detergent oil during the break in on a new  or rebuilt engine. Once oil consumption has stopped showing all parts seated  then we switch to detergent oil.

  

  

 David Mikesell

23597 N. Hwy 99

Acampo, CA 95220

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)

www.skyguynca.com

 [quote]   ---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

Aircraft engines generally use an ashless dispersant engine oil rather than a detergent oil. The operating conditions of an air-cooled aircraft engine are very different a water-cooled engine.



Here's some articles I found on the web that have some more information: 



http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueja02/Hangar7802.html



http://www.castrol.com/castrol/faq.do?categoryId=9001946&contentId=7005219&currentPage=2



On Feb 16, 2007, at 10:23 AM, LRM wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The other day I was talking to a friend of mine and he stated that you could ONLY use NON-detergent oil in air-cooled aircraft engines such as a Lycoming. 

	


 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Oil in air cooled engines

Aircooled aircraft engines are not the same as the engines in your Ford or Harley.



Most people choose straight mineral oil for break-in followed by ashless dispersant oil once oil consumption stabilizes.   The use of 100% synthetic oil has proven less than successful in aircraft applications inasmuch as it fails to properly deal with the combustion byproducts that enter the oil.  Your multigrade aviation oils are typically a semi-synthetic.  The better oils have additives that are designed to inhibit corrosion and reduce wear.  The former is especially important in engines that are not run frequently.



We had a guy at our local airport ruin his engine by running el-cheapo automotive oil in it.   He had an engine worth $10k or better and complained about putting $4 /qt aviation oil in it when he could get auto oil at K-Mart for a buck a quart.   When it started showing metal at 200 hours he found that his cost savings was an illusion.



Tim

_________________
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CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

So true:  

  

 Synthetic oil is great in engines that are used for long periods of time  everyday.  For everything else, including differentials mineral lube.   If you aren't flying a couple of hours every day don't even consider  Synthetic oils.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

Pure mineral oil should be used  in Lycoming for break in.  I think first 50 hr. but could be 25 hr.  I  need to check my manuals.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

Boy I'll tell you, I think it boils down to personal likes and dislikes. 

Except it is a fact that one should use a non-synthetic oil for the break in 

period.  The reason is simple, regular oil is not as friction proof as 

synthetic so the engine's rings will seat quicker.  My RevTech owner's 

manual says to use a regular 10/30 for the first 10 hours and then switch to 

their (naturally) synthetic oil.  It's been my experience that engines will 

still break in with synthetic oil, it just takes longer.  I put Mobil1 in my 

Harley and Subaru's from the get go.  My last Subaru powered gyro now has 

800+ hours and running strong.   I do agree to use a very good oil whatever 

the brand and stay away from K-Mart specials.

secatur

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 50
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Oil in air cooled engines

I'm not sure if it's relevant, but we always add 1-2% castor oil to synthetic oil in our methanol fuel for R/C aircraft engines.

With such large oil percentages (12-20%), you wouldn't think it would make much difference, but we have found that engines that aren't used all the time rust with just synthetic oil!

Crvsecretary(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: Oil in air cooled engines

Hello Lary:

 

As I remember, the reference to using diesel oil was in response to  SAE 

changing automobile oil standards ( I cannot remember if the change was the  SF or 

SG rating) that removed much of the zinc out of the oil which was  thought to 

be damaging catalyic converters.  Zinc is an anti-friction  component which 

we need in air-cooled (motorcycle) engines which aids in dry  startups.

 

I don't recall if it had anything to do with heat.

 

For the little added expense I always use motorcycle oils in the H-D and  the 

BMW.

 

Tracy Smith

Do Not Archive

 

 

In a message dated 2/16/2007 10:44:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,  

lrm(at)skyhawg.com writes:






Boy I'll  tell you, I think it boils down to personal likes and dislikes. 

Except it  is a fact that one should use a non-synthetic oil for the break in 

 

period.  The reason is simple, regular oil is not as friction proof  as 

synthetic so the engine's rings will seat quicker.  My RevTech  owner's 

manual says to use a regular 10/30 for the first 10 hours and then  switch to 

their (naturally) synthetic oil.  It's been my experience  that engines will 

still break in with synthetic oil, it just takes  longer.  I put Mobil1 in my 

Harley and Subaru's from the get  go.  My last Subaru powered gyro now has 

800+ hours and running  strong.   I do agree to use a very good oil whatever 

the brand  and stay away from K-Mart specials.

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Oil in air cooled engines

I forgot to mention that one of the considerations in choosing an oil is the kind of fuel you plan to use.   If you are going to burn 100LL I think you'll want to stick with approved aviation oils.   If you are burning mogas, then as long as the engine manufacturer agrees, other oils are probably an option.



Breaking in with mineral oil has been the standard forever.  That said, there are some aircraft engine rebuilders that recommend or require that you use a multigrade ashless dispersant oil.  Go figure.



Tim

_________________
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CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

billmileski

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Ledyard, CT

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Oil in air cooled engines

Things are a little confused here. There is mineral oil, and the remainder is ashless dispersant. Ashless dispersant can be synthetic or petroleum based, or a combination.  An example of how Lycoming refers to them can be seen here http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/maintenancePublications/serviceInstructions/SI1014M.pdf



Mineral oil is not often the choice for normal, non-break-in operation (see above link).



Synthetic is sometimes the oil of choice. Rotax recommends semi-synthetic for all-around use, and full synthetic as long as 100LL is not used more than 30% of the time.  This is because fully synthetic oil can have difficulty keeping the large amounts of lead in suspension, leading to accumulation, and bad things, such as potential spalling of gearbox components.  I mention the Rotax because clearly not everyone is flying every day and yet semi- or full synthetic remains the manufacturer recommendation.



Bill Mileski

701 912S 76hrs



 	  Quote: 	
		  

So true:  

  

 Synthetic oil is great in engines that are used for long periods of time  everyday.  For everything else, including differentials mineral lube.   If you aren't flying a couple of hours every day don't even consider  Synthetic oils.

  

  

 

Noel

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