Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Rotax Class

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Hi All,



Just got back from a Rotax repairman course. I would highly recommend taking the class. It puts facts and Myths into perspective and may keep someone from spending big bucks in the future from bad advise or poor repairs. There is lots of good information. You strip an engine down and reassemble it. They supply the books and cover all of the 912's systems.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

Hi All, 

From Eric Tucker at Kodiak/Rotax. 

The 912 came out in 1989 and the certified S came out in 1990. The original TBO was 600 hrs. Rotax currently produces 5k 912's a year. With a little more data they might go to 1800 hr. TBO. Business is booming worldwide for the Rotax. 

I recommend everyone that works on a Rotax engine take the class. Lots of good info. 



1. If you built or changed your prop then you should get a Dynamic prop balance for the longevity of your gearbox. 



2. The engine was set up to run better temps. and vibration smoothness at 4800-5200 rpm. 4700 and below usually run a little more temp, but more vibration, whether you feel it or not. I have heard of some guys that want to run the engine at 5500 rpm all the time, well yes it can, but you will pay more in excessive wear later. 



3. Mufflers should have 5 liters volume for your Rotax 912uls/s to have a tuned exhaust. This is stated in the instalation manual.



4. Your 912 was set up to fly for up to 30 minutes at 75% power if you lose oil pressure. Yes, better to land, but not at the expense of crashing. Yes the engine will need some work if you go for the 75% at 30 min. Remember your cylinders are not water cooled, only the heads. 



5. Water temp gauges are not needed if you are keeping you CHT's in limits. 



6. Use only mineral spirits to clean you aluminum engine if it becomes necessary. If you use some types of cleaners and note that there are color changes then this is undesirable. 



7. clean your carbs with only mineral spirits. No carb cleaners. They are too harsh. 



8. No automotive wire connectors are supposed to be used. 



9. Rotax would like to see an oil sample sent in to analysis lab once a year at annual. 



10. Shock cooling a Rotax is not an issue while flying. Lots of data to support this. 



Just some tips and issues discussed at the Rotax class. If you haven't been, or you heard something from a friend or other mechanic then it is just hearsay or some other logic or experience from a different engine type. 

There have been quite a few items that have changed over the years and some of the old ideas do not apply to todays engines v.s. the 10-15 year old 912's.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

Hi Guys, 



Myth 



Bottom line for the ethanol/methanol is don't worry about it. It might rob a little power, but will not hurt a Rotax engine. Not all engines can say that, but Rotax can. The factory did test up to 5% because of places around the world that use it and that is why you see it printed in their manual, but just didn't test more. They can not test all variables from users from around the world. There are some places in the world that add up to 15-20%. There is nothing in the Rotax engine that comes in contact with fuel that this will bother. This comes fro Eric Tucker from the Rotax/Kodiak. He is the go to man for all engine issues of any kind including accident investigation, trouble shooting, maint. instruction and tech support. He has seen it all, more or less.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Not all Rotax engines used in Kolbs are 4 strokes, yet based on this post 

and your previous post, you make everything sound all inclusive, but only 

refer to the 912, or the 912S, so could you clarify things a bit?



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Richard

  Wouldn't it be nice if Rotax saw the need for a smaller 4 stroke for 

us Air heads....... 

  One that produced about 50 or 60 hp at half the weght of a 912 would 

be nice... 



  Rotax already produces a ( 65 hp(at)7,000rpm) 4 stroke V-twin for Skidoo 

called the 4TEC V800

 I wonder if they've considered it for aircraft use??? 

 Mark Vaughn



 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Hi Roger:



Glad you got to go to 912 school.  Paul Petty and I have had the 

opportunity to attend three of Eric's courses so far.



| 1. If you built or changed your prop then you should get a Dynamic 

prop balance for the longevity of your gearbox.



How come I have to get a dynamic prop balance if I fly a Warp Drive 

that is balanced?



| 2. The engine was set up to run better temps. and vibration 

smoothness at 4800-5200 rpm. 4700 and below usually run a little more 

temp, but more vibration, whether you feel it or not.



During the last 13 years and 2,500+ hours flight time with 912uls and 

912ul, I have discovered temps tend to drop rapidly, not increase, 

below 5,000 rpm, especially the 912ul.  I like flying 5000 to 5200 rpm 

normal cruise.   The 912uls generates much more heat than the 912ul 

primarily because of increased compression ration and power output. 

The 912uls also rapidly cools below 5000 rpm.

|

| 4. Your 912 was set up to fly for up to 30 minutes at 75% power if 

you lose oil pressure. Yes, better to land, but not at the expense of 

crashing. Yes the engine will need some work if you go for the 75% at 

30 min. Remember your cylinders are not water cooled, only the heads.



Roger, check your notes on the above.  I believe the engine will run 

for quite some time without coolant, if you come back on the power and 

keep the oil temp down.  Engine oil does more cooling than water, 

including the head.  The cylinders are aircooled.  Yes, if you lose a 

water hose, keep on flying until you find a safe place to land.



Now, if you lose oil pressue in a 912 series engine, you just bought 

yourself an engine.  First thing to go is the crankshaft, and that 

only takes a few seconds when the oil pressure is gone.

|

| Just some tips and issues discussed at the Rotax class. If you 

haven't been, or you heard something from a friend or other mechanic 

then it is just hearsay or some other logic or experience from a 

different engine type.



Don't think it is hearsay if the friend or mechanic has attended the 

912 School and taken copius notes.



Be sure and check you notes on the "loss of oil pressure and continued 

flight" statement.



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler 912 mechanic 1st class.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

Hi John,



1. Prop balance, because all the components out there with the prop are not balanced and nuts and bolts don't always weigh the same. It needs to be balanced as a complete system, not just the prop. Everything from the mounting hub is not balanced. Talking to Warp Drive they said there props are within a couple of grams and add this to the other components and I think you might find it out farther than you might think. The only way to tell for sure is to get it checked with the proper tool.



2. The 912 standard and the 912 certified engine are pretty much the same engine. A quote fron Eric Tucker. Just more documented paperwork for the certification and one or two minor changes. There should be no difference in temps. unless it is just because two engines are running differently (i.e. fuel, oil, climate, ect.)



3. Sorry about the misprint on oil. It is in fact the coolant loss and the extended flight time. I had been up since 3 a.m. that day. Just to tired and blurry eyed. 



4. Said nothing about anyone that had been to a Rotax class, only those who have never been and have tried to use info gleened from other engines, rumors (lots of those) or old time A&P's. The Rotax 912 is a different and better engine than some. Some of the notes have changed.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

Hi Richard,



Sorry I was only talking about the 912 engine series.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Hi Roger:



| 2. The 912 standard and the 912 certified engine are pretty much the 

same engine.



Agree with the above.  The only difference in the two is parts are 

serial numbered and there is a paper trail to track the certified 

engine.  They also get a longer run in at the factory than the 

uncertified version.



 | 4.   The Rotax 912 is a different and better engine than some.



I believe the beauty of the 912 series engines are not that they are 

different, but they are simple, 4 cyl flat opposed, overhead valve and 

push rod actuated.  Liquid and oil cooled heads, air cooled cyls. 

When you get right down to it, they are great engines that perform 

well.  Are extremely reliable and will continue to operate well beyond 

the current factory TBO.



We pulled the gear box off my last engine, 912ULS, at 1200+ hours. 

There was not signs of wear on any component except one 50 cent thrust 

washer.  This is with a 72" Warp Drive Prop and no dynamic balancing. 

So........if we can find a facility that will dynamically balance our 

prop, we are going to really be in business.



When I sold my 912ULS it was producing the same power as it did the 

first day I flew it.



When I spoke of operating temps in my previous post, I was not 

comparing certified with uncertified.  I was comparing 912UL and 

912ULS.  I flew my 912UL and 912ULS, both for more than 1200 hours 

each.  The 912UL does not produce nearly as much heat as the 912ULS. 

Both engines will not maintain proper CHT and engine oil temps below 

4800-5000 rpm.  That is the reason to quickly come off cruise power to 

bring the heat down should you lose coolant or water pump for some 

reason.



I believe, with the increased use of the 912 series engines, as Eric 

Tucker told you, the factory TBO will be increased.  When I started 

flying my first 912, TBO was 600 hours.  The last engine was 1200. 

Would love to see 1500 or 1800 or more next time.



Hope my new engine will give me the same performance and reliability 

that the last two did.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: Rotax Class

..      Bottom line for the ethanol/methanol is don't worry about 

it....



Roger,



If alcohol is not an issue with Rotax engines, then why does Bing sell 

an optional seal, float, etc kit for Bing 64 carburetors used on 912 

series engines?



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

John H,



The current TBO for the newer 912 series engine is already 1,500 hours, beginning with 4,404,718 on UL engines. Not sure which serial number on the ULS engines is the first w/ 1500 hour TBO. I think it will indeed be increased again sometime. We have only about 470 hours on our 912UL s/n 4,405,916 built in 2003 and it shows no signs of aging at all. GREAT engine but sure is expensive and getting more so with the US$ continuing to tank.



Thom in Buffalo

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Rotax Class

| The current TBO for the newer 912 series engine is already 1,500 

hours, beginning with 4,404,718 on UL engines.  | Thom in Buffalo

Morning Thom:



You are absolutely correct.  My mistake.



Yes, they are very expensive, but they perform and are the most 

reliable engine available.  I'd rather spend the money and feel 

comfortable to enjoy my sport, than the alternative.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

eagle1(at)commspeed.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Rotax Class

Hi to John and all other Kolbers who were friends of Az. Dave as Dave 

Pelletier was known.

     I talked with Dave's wife, Eve just the other day. She told me that the 

NTSB had finished the inspection of Dave's plane and found NO mechanical 

faults with it. I am sure we all knew this would be the result, but it is 

good to know the official results. The remains will come back up to Prescott 

to the Embry Riddle Aeronautical University for further inspections and 

tests. They have an aircraft "Accident" investigation course that recognized 

as world class.

     I am going to try to make MV again this year. Hope to see all of you 

there.

     The Az. Bald Eagle (George Thompson)

From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:20 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Rotax Class

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 | The current TBO for the newer 912 series engine is already 1,500

 hours, beginning with 4,404,718 on UL engines.  | Thom in Buffalo

 Morning Thom:



 You are absolutely correct.  My mistake.



 Yes, they are very expensive, but they perform and are the most

 reliable engine available.  I'd rather spend the money and feel

 comfortable to enjoy my sport, than the alternative.



 john h

 mkIII

 -- 

 1:44 PM

hillstw(at)jhill.biz
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: Rotax Class

Speaking  of   Rotax classes; who knows when and where upcoming 912 classes 

will be?



Jimmy

912S

---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

Hi All,



Eric Tucker mentioned that they were looking at the 1800 TBO.



Hi Thom,



I don't know about Bing, but only what Eric Tucker stated.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

ATI PLANS ROTAX TRAINING CLASSES AT SUN 'N  FUN

Aero Technical Institute (ATI)  will offer several Rotax engine training classes at the Sun 'n Fun Fly-in at  Lakeland Florida in mid-April. A 4-stroke class will be held on April 17-18, and  if that fills up, another will be offered April 22-23. A 2-stroke class will be  held April 19-20. Also offered is a one-day class on 4-strokes on April 21. All  classes are from 8 a.m.-5 p.m. at the Lockwood display in the new Sun 'n Fun  Light Plane area (formerly Paradise City/Ultralight Area). Cost is $445 for  advance registration and $545 if you register at the event. The one-day class is  $295 before March 15, 2007, or $325 afterwards. To register, call 863-655-5100.  For more information, visit www.AeroTechnicalInstitute.com.

  

  

 steve



 [b]Check out free AOL[/b]. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, millions of free high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and much more.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Steve:



Who is going to teach the 912 class?  Eric Tucker?



I, personally, would rather attend his classes based on his experience 

with the two stroke and the 912.



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: Rotax Class

Who is going to teach the 912 class?  Eric Tucker?



I,  personally, would rather attend his classes based on his experience 

with the  two stroke and the 912.



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 John,

  

 Do not know, I saw that notice on the regular EAA update I get. 

 Someone will have to call.

  

  

 Steve



 [b]Check out free AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, millions of free high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and much more.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Class

Hi Guys,



If you have the choice take the 3 day class. There is way too much stuff to cover in one day. It took all three days.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum