Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

447 problem
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: 447 problem

 	  Ralph B wrote: 	
		  I've flown with the Mikuni pumps for 22 years and the only problem I've seen was when I replaced the diaphragm with one that was an aftermarket part that wasn't like the original. It ran rough and I replaced the pump. I found it had been creased and was leaking fuel out the weep hole.



If you think the single Mikuni pump is marginal, then use a dual Mikuni and tie the outputs together. This is what I have on my 447.



Never use fuel line for the pulse line. I use single-walled auto fuel line. It's very rigid and won't collapse. Some guys use pneumatic line, which is good too.



Ralph B 	




The real issue with the pulse line isn't so much the sturdiness of the walls of the line (tho you generally only want to use purpose-made pulse line anyway), it's the compliance of the air column inside the line. 



Air compresses as we all know, so when you have more air in the column, the easier it compresses. Because of that, less energy from the pulse output on the motor gets transmitted to the pump. 



After a certain length, even if the line is made of solid steel, too much of the pulse energy gets absorbed by the air column in the line and too little is left over to drive the pump.



It's a very simple thing to overlook but such a horribly dangerous mistake to make. A foot or less always, never longer than a foot.



The single mikuni pump will work fine in virtually all normal situations with a single carb engine. For dual carb you do want the higher volume pump. 



Still I always strongly preferred nothing in the vacuum end of the fuel line but a filter and that was it. No squeeze bulbs, extra pumps, etc., that can introduce drag. Once you take them out you may find you never needed them in the first place. I never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those pumps.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: 447 problem

> Still I always strongly preferred nothing in the vacuum end of the fuel 

line but a filter and that was it. No squeeze bulbs, extra pumps, etc., that 

can introduce drag. Once you take them out you may find you never needed 

them in the first place. I never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use 

of those pumps.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS


	




There is no way to convert years to actual time of operation of an aircraft, 

or any other piece of machinery.  That's why they install hour meters, or 

like we did in Army Aviation, log the flight in the aircraft log book.



If I tell you I have been flying more than 40 years, that doesn't tell you 

how much flight experience I have.



If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those 

pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours.  Who knows?



john h

mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: 447 problem

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those 

pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours.  Who knows?



john h

mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours. 	




Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I have with the Rotax 2-strokes and that's already too many times. You're free to believe what you want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go for it.



Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify what I've told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke fliers. If you think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm done telling it to you. Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience and advice elsewhere. I'll take mine elsewhere also.



I'm done with you, and done with the list.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: 447 problem

>> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of 

those

 	  Quote: 	
		  > pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours.  Who knows?

>

> john h

> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours.

 Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I have with 

 them and that's already too many times. You're free to believe what you 

 want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go for it.



 Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify what I've 

 told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke fliers. If you 

 think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm done telling it to you. 

 Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience and advice elsewhere. I'll take 

 mine elsewhere also.



 I'm done with you, and done with the list.



 LS


	




No one is questioning your experience, but 10 years is not relative when it 

comes to operating an engine.  If you want to impress the Kolb List with 

your experience, then you need to express it in hours, not years.



I have no desire to verify your experience, but it would help if you express 

it so we can understand it.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: 447 problem

Lucien, please don't leave as you add quite a bit to this list.



John H may have been referring to me as I say that I have 22 years flying, but have not listed my hours.



Ralph B

22 years flying

960 hours

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: 447 problem

Boys do not throw the toys out of the cot. You are all very interesting folk 

and contribute a lot. Your input may just save someones butt" if it has not 

already done so" I only have 400hrs with 447 and 503s and have all the 

nastys like outboard prime bulbs , by passes and such, and while I respect 

the opinion of those that oppose these things ,they have served me well.The 

reasons they are not considered good practice do focus me some what when 

doing pre flight checks, so while I still use these things ,the reasons not 

to, put on this list have at least brought there failings to my attention 

and I am now better informed and operate accordingly.Being prepared and for 

warned is a good thing.

4 or 40,000 hours we are still all learning . keep the information flowing . 

In this way the Kolbs we all on this list love to fly will serve us well for 

many years to come.



Downunder

MK111c

300hrs in Kolbs

Some more hrs in other things { stay safe up there }

As my instructor used to say "in god we trust, everything else we check 

twice"



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: 447 problem

Hi Tony Oldman,



Is `down under` Oz or NZ?  If in NZ, where are you?



I have taken a house on the beach in Russel in the Bay of Islands for all of 

Feb next year and if you happen to be in that area I would like to make 

contact.



Cheers



Pat  in the UK

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: 447 problem

NZ ,South Island ,Timaru. You will like Russel. NZs first capital. Treaty of 

Waitangi [ our founding document } was signed not far from Russel. We are 

still trying to work out what it actualy means. Keeps lawyers and 

politicians  gainfully employed  . If you find you way this far South I will 

definatly take the time to meet up . Feb will be a all on month.Boating on 

lake Benmore and vintage car stuff to do ,can always fit some Kolb flying in 

as well.



Regards

           Tony



---

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: 447 problem

As Marx said, " I wouldn't belong to any group that would have me as a member". Groucho, that is, and loosely quoted at that.

Rick Girard

do not archive

 On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:08 PM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

 John Hauck wrote:

 >

 >

 > If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use of those

 > pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours.  Who knows?

 >

 > john h

 > mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours.

 Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I have with them and that's already too many times. You're free to believe what you want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go for it.

 Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify what I've told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke fliers. If you think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm done telling it to you. Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience and advice elsewhere. I'll take mine elsewhere also.

 I'm done with you, and done with the list.

 LS

 --------

 LS

 Titan II SS

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257605#257605

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 [b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: 447 problem

NZ ,South Island ,Timaru



Hi  Tony,



We have been to NZ four or five times touring. Flown gliders at Omarama. 

Flown out of Queenstown to Milford Sound. Been to Wanaka, unfortunately not 

during the Wings over Wanaka but I had a look around the workshops there.



This time, and I think I am getting to old to make another long distance 

trip, we decided to stay in one place.  If  I could put the clock back I 

would have emigrated to NZ 40 years ago.



Cheers



Pat

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: 447 problem

Lucien, I've enjoyed reading your comments, and profited from them  

too. I'd be very sorry to see an experienced pilot like yourself go,  

as would many others on the List. Your inputs have always been well- 

informed, well thought out, good, and valuable (and I can't say that  

for some of the others posted). No one's challenging your information.

John only pointed out that "years of operation" really doesn't tell  

us much, whereas "hours of operation" would be a good yardstick.

I'm sure no insult was intended. Can't you be a little patient with us?

Russ K

not-yet-Kolber

On Aug 13, 2009, at 11:08 PM, lucien wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 John Hauck wrote:

> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use  

> of those

> pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours.  Who knows?

>

> john h

> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours.

 Ok, that's it. I've told you multiple times now how much time I  

 have with them and that's already too many times. You're free to  

 believe what you want - that I have 0, 1, 5, 500 or 5000 hours. Go  

 for it.

 Regarding the advice and experience I've shared, you can verify  

 what I've told you with any number of other experienced 2-stroke  

 fliers. If you think everything I'm telling you is crap, then I'm  

 done telling it to you. Feel free to get your 2-stroke experience  

 and advice elsewhere. I'll take mine elsewhere also.

 I'm done with you, and done with the list.

 LS

 --------

 LS

 Titan II SS

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 57605#257605

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: 447 problem

The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce.

 

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.  

   
	


To put things in perspective,,,,   been told that cigarette smoke is 4 microns.     

   

Boyd Young  

       [quote][b]

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: 447 problem

In a message dated 8/14/2009 11:26:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  by0ung(at)brigham.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The other thing I    would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel    filter from Aircraft Spruce.

	


 

 This award winning high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and  reusable Filter is USA made, high performance billet, stainless steel, washable  and reusable superb flow filters. For those who want and appreciate quality,  these high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable filter  will take you to the highest level of filtration performance. 



  

 Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT  IT'S A...

  

 "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?"

  

 ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?...

  

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: 447 problem

A billet is a solid block of metal.  You machine away anything that doesn't look like the finished product.

  

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                   FS 447

 [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: 447 problem

A billet is a small bill.do not archive

On Aug 14, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Blumax008(at)aol.com (Blumax008(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]   In a message dated 8/14/2009 11:26:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The other thing I   would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel   filter from Aircraft Spruce.

	


 

 This award winning high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable Filter is USA made, high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable superb flow filters. For those who want and appreciate quality, these high performance billet, stainless steel, washable and reusable filter will take you to the highest level of filtration performance. 



  

 Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A...

  

 "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?"

  

 ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?...

  

  

  



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: 447 problem

Russ!

  

   You beat me to it!!!

  

 Mike Welch

 

  From: russ(at)rkiphoto.com

Subject: Re: Re: 447 problem

Date: Fri C 14 Aug 2009 13:31:21 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



A billet is a small bill. do not archive

   



 



 



 On Aug 14 C 2009 C at 1:01 PM C Blumax008(at)aol.com (Blumax008(at)aol.com) wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    In a message dated 8/14/2009 11:26:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time C by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The other thing I would do is buy a really good fuel filter like this 10 micron stainless steel filter from Aircraft Spruce.

	


 

 This award winning high performance billet C stainless steel C washable and reusable Filter is USA made C high performance billet C stainless steel C washable and reusable superb flow filters. For those who want and appreciate quality C these high performance billet C stainless steel C washable and reusable filter will take you to the highest level of filtration performance. 



  

 Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A...

  

 "high performance billet C stainless steel C washable & reusuable?"

  

 ...by the way C what the hell is a billet?...

  

  

  

 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution



	
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®.  Try it now.  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: 447 problem

At 08:56 AM 8/14/09 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



>> If you tell me you never had any trouble in almost 10 years of use  

>> of those

>> pumps, that could mean 10 minutes or 100 hours.  Who knows?

>>

>> john h

>> mkIII - Flying it 17 years...and 2,980+ flight hours.

>


	


Still waiting for the first mikuni pulse pump failure after flying with one 

for 267+ hours.  I believe I am correct in that John's engine on his MKIII 

does not use a mikuni pulse pump so the year and flight hour totals he lists 

do not mean much to this discussion.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: 447 problem

> Still waiting for the first mikuni pulse pump failure after flying with 

one

 	  Quote: 	
		   for 267+ hours.  I believe I am correct in that John's engine on his MKIII

 does not use a mikuni pulse pump so the year and flight hour totals he 

 lists

 do not mean much to this discussion.



 Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Jack H:



The time in my signature block has was not intended to add anything to this 

discussion.   However, had I only listed the years flown, that information 

would tell the reader absolute nothing about how long this airplane had been 

flying, other than it first flew 17 years ago.



Was trying to get Lucien S to express experience with Mikuni fuel pumps in 

hours, rather than years.  Gives me a better understanding of "use" and 

expected length of reliability.  He may fly 100 hours or 1000 hours in 10 

years.   Hell, I don't know.



I used single and double Mikunis on ULII02, 447, and 582, on my own Kolb 

aircraft, and have flown other factory aircraft a bit.  My time in my own 

Kolb powered two strokes was a little over 1,300 hours.  I only had a Mikuni 

fuel pump problem once in all that time, between 1984 and 1993.  I bought a 

rebuild kit to carry with me on my flight to New England and Oshkosh in 

1989.  When I got to the Flight Farm at Monterey, NY, I decided to put the 

new diaphragm in because I would be flying in some bad country doing the New 

England States, and across Niagara Falls for the second year.  Next flight I 

had an engine failure.  Dug the old diaphragm out of the garbage can and 

reinstalled it.  Made the rest of the flight to Oshkosh and back to Alabama 

on the old one.  Leaf would not reimburse me for the cost of the kit.  It 

was an after market no name kit from some unknown country.  I assumed it was 

a Mikuni part.  Live and learn.  Last item I bought from LEAF.



I've pulled fuel with Mikunis a pretty good distance.  As far away as the 

bottom of a Ken Brock seat tank in my Firestar.  Was also a good pull from 

the Ultrastar tanks under my knees to the pump behind my head on top of the 

engine.



As far a Mikuni pulse pump, the UL/Lt Plane market is a very small piece of 

their market.  I have a 35 year old Kubota diesel tractor that uses a Mikuni 

pulse pump that has  been pumping for the last 35 years and more than 2500 

hours.  Never even think about it.  Would be afraid to look at it now.  



Reliability, to me, of a Mikuni pulse pump is phenomenal.  Probably one of 

the best systems available.



john h

mkIII - Sitting in the hanger collecting barn dust and bug/bird crap.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: 447 problem

Hit Button Twice, read below...

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Last edited by JetPilot on Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: 447 problem

 	  russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: 	
		  

  

 Let me get this straight once & for all...ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S A...

  

 "high performance billet, stainless steel, washable & reusuable?"

  

 ...by the way, what the hell is a billet?...

  

  

 	




The description is pretty self explanatory



Billet = Billet refers to a cast semi finished product. It is also referred to as ingot, particularly for smaller sizes. A billet is typically cast to a rectangular, hexagonal or round cross section compatible with secondary processing, e.g. forging or milling. It can be produced either as coil or cut lengths. Ingots and billets are collectively known as bar stock.



The filter case starts life as a billet piece of aluminum, and is machined to the proper shape.  The aluminum filter Never breaks, cracks, or get soft due to ethanol or water.   Stainless Steel mesh element also impervious to ethanol and water, and does a much better job of filtering than Paper for fiber ever will.  I have two of these filters in two airplanes, my carb bowls are always so clean I could drink wine out of them if I wanted to 



The filter is expensive at 80 dollars, but its not as expensive as having an engine failure and off field landing with aircraft damage due to clogged or faulty cheap filter that can fail in any number of ways...



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/micron10.php



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum