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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

How did the BRS religion discussion get on the ROTAX ENGINE thread????



Or perhaps a better question is why is it still being discussed here?



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Roger,

  I am 100% in your court on this one. When I bought my Kitfox 4 it had a very nicely installed BRS chute. That to me was a big plus. As a retired military pilot the value of a chute is well ingrained in me. All the training and knowledge in the world will not help you if you were to have an inflight failure and could not control the aircraft (which would be the reason for the chute)

  I have had two "deadsticks' while serving as an instructor in the Navy in the North American T-28 Trojan ( engine blew at 3000 ft on one, the other the prop came off with fire) Both aircraft are on a stick now(static display in a couple of towns) I was very fortunate. It was nice to know that I had a chute in case I needed it.

  My only civillian crash was in a Pitts when I was going vertical at 200! AGL. Engine quit cold turky and I put that one upside down in a field.Couldn't have used a chute in that one  but again if I have a choice of a chute or no chute on board...I will take the chute.

                                                                                        

                                                                                    Dick Maddux

                                                                                    Milton,Fl

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:52 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Dick & Roger:



I have been reading with interest the thread on chutes.

I recall a few articles and NTSB reports about SR-22's having their chutes pulled while the plane was at a high altitude.  The report did not directly say so but the indication was they were pulled prematurely and it might have to do with human nature and the back of the mind idea that there was a chute available.  Could the plane have been flown to a good off airport spot or even to a airport?  That was not mentioned.

 



Do I like chutes?  I would say yes.  I only had to ware them when skydiving and aerobatics.  I have also been lucky; I had a few engine out situations and was able to limp or glide back to an airport.  Would I have jumped?  No, only because of lack of altitude and I had a passenger that would have froze.

 



Hey Dick - THANK YOU FOR SERVING.

Barry

"Chop'd Liver"





  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:04 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

 	  rickofudall wrote: 	
		  Lucien, FAR 91.307



(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute,

no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember)

may execute any intentional maneuver that exceedsï¿½



(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or



(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.



(e) For the purposes of this section, *approved parachute *meansï¿½



(1) A parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a technical

standard order (Cï¿½23 series); or



(2) A personnel-carrying military parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or AN

drawing number, an AAF order number, or any other military designation or

specification number.



NO BRS meets these requirements, NONE.



Rick

	




True, but 2 things:

- of course, nobody's suggesting that the BRS should _substitute_ for the personal chute requirement. Or at least, I'm not suggesting such a thing and I don't think Roger is either, etc.

- this reg doesn't say you _can't_ use a supplemental safety device like a BRS during aerobatic flight. The FARs normally only specify _minima_ and they're doing so in this case too. You're quite right the BRS by itself wouldn't meet this minimum, but having the BRS fitted to the plane in addition to the approved parachute isn't barred either.



Well, now I'm actually kind of on the other side again, , but when they're right they're right . 



Like I said, I still tend towards the no-chute camp for our normal ops for the reasons I've stated, but credit still has to go where it's due....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:25 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

I wonder when Daddy is going to issue instructions on  how to wipe our own ass? I'm sure there'll be a fee to go along with it...an  escalating fee that is.

  

  In a message dated 8/30/2010 10:06:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "lucien"    <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>

rickofudall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lucien,    FAR 91.307

 

 (c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is    wearing an approved parachute,

 no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying    any person (other than a crewmember)

 may execute any intentional    maneuver that exceedsï¿½

 

 (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to    the horizon; or

 

 (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30    degrees relative to the horizon.

 

 (e) For the purposes of this    section, *approved parachute *meansï¿½

 

 (1) A parachute    manufactured under a type certificate or a technical

 standard order    (Cï¿½23 series); or

 

 (2) A personnel-carrying military    parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or AN

 drawing number, an AAF    order number, or any other military designation or

 specification    number.

 

 NO BRS meets these requirements, NONE.

    

 Rick

 


	




True, but 2 things:

- of course, nobody's    suggesting that the BRS should _substitute_ for the personal chute    requirement. Or at least, I'm not suggesting such a thing and I don't think    Roger is either, etc.

- this reg doesn't say you _can't_ use a supplemental    safety device like a BRS during aerobatic flight. The FARs normally only    specify _minima_ and they're doing so in this case too. You're quite right the    BRS by itself wouldn't meet this minimum, but having the BRS fitted to the    plane in addition to the approved parachute isn't barred either.



Well,    now I'm actually kind of on the other side again, , but when they're right    they're right . 



Like I said, I still tend towards the no-chute camp    for our normal ops for the reasons I've stated, but credit still has to go    where it's due....



LS



--------

LS

Titan II    SS





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310632#310632===============================================

_-=   = Use   utilities  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:35 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

What people don't realize is that a deployment could actually put you in a  much more dangerous situation. I was doing some high alititude photography one  day on the Gulf coast. I had a strong north wind howling southward out over the  Gulf. I got to thinking...if that chute accidentally deployed, I'd be blown out  to sea for many miles. At that point I realized a person needs to be aware of  his particular flight situation before he deploys. In my case at 15,000 ft. I  would've had to ride a crippled aircraft down to a couple thousand before I  could attempt a deployment without going for a swim. Use your noggin'.

  

  In a message dated 8/30/2010 8:52:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  flyadive(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dick    & Roger:    



   I have been reading with interest the thread on chutes.

   



   I recall a few articles and NTSB reports about SR-22's having their    chutes pulled while the plane was at a high altitude.  The report did not    directly say so but the indication was they were pulled prematurely    and it might have to do with human nature and the back of the mind idea that    there was a chute available.  Could the plane have been flown to a good    off airport spot or even to a airport?  That was not mentioned.

   



   Do I like chutes?  I would say yes.  I only had to ware them    when skydiving and aerobatics.  I have also been lucky; I had a few    engine out situations and was able to limp or glide back to an airport.     Would I have jumped?  No, only because of lack of altitude and I    had a passenger that would have froze.

   



   Hey Dick - THANK YOU FOR SERVING.

   



   Barry

   "Chop'd Liver"

   



   



 	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

====================================

ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
	


  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:51 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

Hi All,



I have to take the blame for starting this thread. I had just talked to BRS for a bunch of people on another forum site as thought I would just pass along the info here since many have chutes. I thought it was going to be pretty harmless, little did I know.     All is good.



The original site was on CTflier.com.   All those planes have BRS so I didn't think twice about posting it here just for the info. The ctflier.com site is a great place to get all kinds of info on just about anything LSA no matter what it is and it's a very active site.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

OK, I'll contribute to the thread, since it's still kicking along.  



I'm building a Pipistrel Sinus motorglider (see http://www.pipistrelbuilders.com ) that will have a ballistic chute installed.  When I visited the Pipistrel factory in Slovenia, I asked if their chute installation had ever been involved in a save.  There has been one instance, involving a high-time glider pilot soaring his fairly new Pipistrel over the Alps.  When he was done for the day and ready to head back home, he wasn't paying close attention, and did what he was used to doing -- he put the nose down and pointed it toward the airport.  It's a pretty clean airplane, so it quickly went to what they later estimated was 60+ knots over VNE.  The wings fluttered and came off the airplane.  The fuselage then pitched forward and went inverted, at which point he pulled the handle and fired the chute in about the worst possible attitude.  That is, he fired the chute pretty much directly against the aircraft's velocity vector at very high speed.  It worked as advertised and the pilot and passenger walked away.  Convinced me.

 

Regards,

Paul Kuntz



On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Hi All,

 

 Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator. The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable goes taught. You have to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely to the ground. W!

   hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.

 I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that it can't hurt us.

  Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from an idiot not using his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.

  As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of  times I have heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.

  

 I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives when I fall off.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 

 ngines-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Paul, Roger, et al, This will be my last post on this thread, I promise.If I had to pick a story that proves my point that having a BRS is conducive to an unsafe attitude, this would be it. 

Even using this incident, which I find extremely dubious since 60+ knots, as stated, is 1.5X the factory published Vne for the aircraft, as a pretext to justify anything is, frankly, stupid.

 So far all the defense of the BRS has taken this tack. Freedom from stupidity, from being responsible, from being safe, from following the FAR's, from having your head in the upright and locked position. All I have to do is pull the magic handle and everything will be ducky. La la la la la...... 

 Paul, if this is truly an example of how you approach decision making, you should very seriously think of getting into another activity, for your own good and those of us who will have to pick up the pieces.

 Now, to get back to a forum topic, can someone speculate as to why my 582-90 is using oil from the rotary valve reservoir? I've checked for leaks, made sure the plumbing is correct and looked over the factory drawings in the IPC. I can't account for the engine using enough oil for the reservoir to go from max to min in about 4 hours. I'm using up the last of the Pennzoil Air Cooled that I bought at Lockwood when I took the Rotax courses in  2007. Ideas? In answering kindly change the subject title so any answer won't go into the archives under the BRS discussion.

 There, I've attempted to do as so many, like Thom Riddle, have asked and steer us back to the forum raison d'etre.

Cheers,

Rick



On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com (paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  OK, I'll contribute to the thread, since it's still kicking along.  



I'm building a Pipistrel Sinus motorglider (see http://www.pipistrelbuilders.com ) that will have a ballistic chute installed.  When I visited the Pipistrel factory in Slovenia, I asked if their chute installation had ever been involved in a save.  There has been one instance, involving a high-time glider pilot soaring his fairly new Pipistrel over the Alps.  When he was done for the day and ready to head back home, he wasn't paying close attention, and did what he was used to doing -- he put the nose down and pointed it toward the airport.  It's a pretty clean airplane, so it quickly went to what they later estimated was 60+ knots over VNE.  The wings fluttered and came off the airplane.  The fuselage then pitched forward and went inverted, at which point he pulled the handle and fired the chute in about the worst possible attitude.  That is, he fired the chute pretty much directly against the aircraft's velocity vector at very high speed.  It worked as advertised and the pilot and passenger walked away.  Convinced me.

  

Regards,

Paul Kuntz



On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Hi All,

 



 Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator. The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable goes taught. You have to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely to the ground. W!

    hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.

 I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that it can't hurt us.

   Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from an idiot not using his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.

   As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of  times I have heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.

   

 I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives when I fall off.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 

 ngines-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


   	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi All,



I have to take the blame for starting this thread. I had just talked to BRS for a bunch of people on another forum site as thought I would just pass along the info here since many have chutes. I thought it was going to be pretty harmless, little did I know.     All is good.



The original site was on CTflier.com.   All those planes have BRS so I didn't think twice about posting it here just for the info. The ctflier.com site is a great place to get all kinds of info on just about anything LSA no matter what it is and it's a very active site. 	




Not at all... this thread is like the common cold, it just pops up unawares anywhere and there's no cure for it . You don't even have to mention the BRS for it to start up all over again, it just goes on all by itself. I of course don't help by putting in my jabs about it, but it's all good fun 



I for one hope this doesn't discourage you from continuing to post info, as you always touch on something we need to know, etc... 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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