Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Tansfer pump Ideas?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Re: powering a fuel pump.These things don't draw a lot of power and I like to keep things simple, BUT....

That is the one item that I installed with  a relay.  OK, I know that when the pump

coil fries that my engine will quit anyway but it makes me feel better knowing that

part is isolated from the rest of my panel power.   No I don't have a "hot box"

and don't even know what it is.  Ol' Suzuki is wired up according to my own druthers.

John, just as mizzerble here in upper NY.  Windy and cold.  Dug a tater patch

with the backhoe for my brother yesterday.

Flying coming soon.

BB

do not archive



On 21, May 2008, at 4:10 PM, knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]Thanks for the heads up  Dennis. 

 

 I haven't started the parts list yet so any and all info is appreciated...

 

 

 I have ideas floating around in the Grey matter and on paper..

 but thats as far as i've gone so far...

 

 

 I may hard wire a female plug to the battery terminals and install a

 In line switch for power... but again that just one idea.. The goal is

 a KISS approach.... I want an easy in and out and reliable set up...

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 05:59 AM 5/21/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  ï»¿ 

  these types of on line Campfires.... Sharing ideas..>>

  

 on my Xtra the engine , Jabiru, pulls fuel equally from 2 tanks connected by a tee piece.  Any reason why I can`t put a spare tank on the passengers seat and just add a quick connect into the same fuel line?

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat



 	


 You can ....if the tee is below the (bottom) of the tanks. 

 You could hook up ten tanks that way, and never suck up any air.

 Physics 101, fuel is heaver than air. 

     [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 10:24 PM 5/21/2008, possums wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  You can ....if the tee is below the (bottom) of the tanks. 

 You could hook up ten tanks that way, and never suck up any air.

 Physics 101, fuel is heaver than air. 	


 Not necessarily... if there's any restriction in the tank, like an in-tank filter or even enough hose, and if the pressure drop from that restriction is greater than the pressure due to gravity at the tee, then it'll suck air from an empty tank feeding the tee.  



 -Dana

 --

  Lottery: a tax on the mathematically challenged.    [quote][b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 11:32 PM 5/21/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  At 10:24 PM 5/21/2008, possums wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  You can ....if the tee is below the (bottom) of the tanks. 

 You could hook up ten tanks that way, and never suck up any air.

 Physics 101, fuel is heaver than air. 	


 Not necessarily... if there's any restriction in the tank, like an in-tank filter or even enough hose, and if the pressure drop from that restriction is greater than the pressure due to gravity at the tee, then it'll suck air from an empty tank feeding the tee. 



 -Dana

 --

  Lottery: a tax on the mathematically challenged. 	


 Only if the restriction is more than  ..... 1 gallon a minute. We are only feeding a tank here.

 [quote]BTW - Lottery: next is 3 22 30 31 44 48 - Fanisty5[b]

_________________
Possum

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 01:23 AM 5/22/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At 11:32 PM 5/21/2008, you wrote:

>At 10:24 PM 5/21/2008, possums wrote:

>

>>You can ....if the tee is below the (bottom) of the tanks.

>>You could hook up ten tanks that way, and never suck up any air.

>>Physics 101, fuel is heaver than air.

>

>Not necessarily... if there's any restriction in the tank, like an 

>in-tank filter or even enough hose,


	




Then the other tanks will dump fuel into the system.

_________________
Possum

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Do Not Archive

For fun & $

http://www.intrade.com/

_________________
Possum

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:11 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 01:23 AM 5/22/2008, possums wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Only if the restriction is more than  ..... 1 gallon a minute. We are only feeding a tank here. 	


 Restriction isn't measured in flow rate; restriction produces a pressure drop at a given flow rate.



 At 1 gpm, the pressure drop through a 5/16" hole is the same as the head pressure of 4" (0.104psi).  Thus if you have an empty tank teed into a fuel line and the tee is 4" below the liquid level in the tank, it'll start sucking air from the empty tank.  At 4 gph (more reasonable), it'd take a .082 hole to get that pressure drop.  Now I hope you don't have a .082 fuel passage, but all the restriction is cumulative, so if you have a long hose, a filter, some elbows and valves... I'll keep the aux tank feeding into the top of my main tank, thanks.



 -Dana

 --

  Income tax: capital punishment.    [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

You can ....if the tee is below the (bottom) of the  tanks.>>

  

 My tanks feed fuel from the top.  The air  breather is also teed to both tanks and tapped into the handles. Now  what?

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Is yours a Gravity feed?>>

  

 Hi,

 No. Tanks are a couple of feet below the  engine.  Pick up is from the top of the tanks and the balancing  air  inlets are grommet push fit into the handles. Fuel is drawn equally from both  tanks. If I add a third tank, feeding fuel into the same pick up line and adding  a tee to the same air line there would be no more chance of sucking air than  already exists. They will all empty together (roughly).  I assume that I  should have to install the tank at the same level as the existing  ones?

 If I can do this it saves all the problems of  transfer of fuel.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

You guys are starting to make me want to intall an inflight Refuling reseptical too.. hahahahahaha 

 

  Any Â FAT ULs out there sporting a Tail a BOOM Â hahahaha 

  

 

  Guys

  Im transfering 5 Gallons via a Fauset Â to the Main tank... Â  KISS ...Â 

  

 

  Mark

  

 

 

 --

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 02:42 PM 5/22/2008, knowvne(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  You guys are starting to make me want to intall an inflight Refuling 

reseptical too.. hahahahahaha



Any Â FAT ULs out there sporting a Tail a BOOM Â hahahaha 


	


Hah!  The UltraStar has 3.5 gallons stock; my 1.5 gallon aux tank only 

brings me up to the legal limit...



-Dana



do not archive

--

  "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the 

support of Paul."-- George Bernard Shaw

Richard Swiderski

Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Ocala FL

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Sorry if this posted twice, but I thinks I just clicked the 1st attempt int oblivion.  I'm not on the List much any more this last year or so, but here are some thoughts on auxiliary tanks:



1) Always plumb so the aux tank drains 1st, as often you must take it to the fuel source.



2) On my UltraStar I installed an aux tank above the engine.  It fed the 2 carbs by gravity after changing the float seat valves to gravity feed valves.  I then used the fuel pump to transfer fuel from my Ken Brock seat tank to the top of the aux tank which had an overflow that drained back to the seat tank.  I modified the pump diaphragm with a neoprene gasket material so it would run dry just fine.  I had many trouble free hours with this system but it would have been easier & portable if I had done what I did later with my SlingShot.



3)On the SlingShot the 2nd 5 gal tank was behind the  front 5 gal, which put it behind the cg so I modified the plumbing so it drained 1st.  I drilled out the vent holes in both tanks & installed a grommet fuel fitting.  Both tanks had a fuel pickup tube on it's top.  The main tank (front) had it's pickup tube connected to the input of the fuel pump.  The vent of the front tank was connected to the pickup of the rear aux. tank.  The aux tank vent was plumbed to outside the cockpit.  With both tanks full, fuel would be 1st drawn from the aux tank as it was feeding the vent of the main tank.  When it was completely dry, then the main tank would begin to go down.  An added advantage is I only have to top off one tank if I use less than 5 gal.  If the aux tank was portable ( not so with SS) I would have put the female quick disconnect on the pickup of the aux tank and the male coupler ( the always open kind) on the vent of the main tank. This would preclude any way to block the vent & thus keep it fail safe.  This is a tried & tested method & it is also cheap!  Email me off the List if I did not explain this well enough.   -Richard Swiderski

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

[quote="pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com"]Is yours a Gravity feed?>>

  

 Hi,

 No. Tanks are a couple of feet below the  engine.  Pick up is from the top of the tanks and the balancing  air  inlets are grommet push fit into the handles. Fuel is drawn equally from both  tanks. If I add a third tank, feeding fuel into the same pick up line and adding  a tee to the same air line there would be no more chance of sucking air than  already exists. They will all empty together (roughly).  I assume that I  should have to install the tank at the same level as the existing  ones?

 If I can do this it saves all the problems of  transfer of fuel.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Pat, 



I would not add a third tank to this system.  Pulling fuel from the top of the tank is not a good setup, if  you get even the slightest leak anywhere in a suction system such as this you will just be sucking air and the engine will quit.   Adding a third tank to this system just increases the chances that you will one day have a slight leak somewhere.



Also, all three tanks need to have the same vent pressure, and need to be at the same level for this system to work.  If one of the tanks is emptied before the others for any reason, its pickup tube will immediately fill the fuel system with air, and you will be flying a glider, no matter how full the other two tanks are.



Three tanks being drawn from the top could work, but it is a system with a lot of unnecessary risks and is just an engine failure waiting to happen.   



Fuel systems should be pressure fed, that way a pinhole would be a very slow drip instead of a sudden  engine stoppage.  You also have vapor lock to consider, and a lot of other reasons that your fuel system should be pressure fed rather than having a pump suction fed from the tanks.   I had the standard fuel tanks on my MK III, and changed it so that the fuel pump is now below the level of the tanks.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Mark,



Why would your engine quit if your Facet pump failed ?  Don't you have an engine driven pump ?   Most installations have both, on my Kolb the engine does not quit when I turn the Facet pump off.



Also, there is no advantage to installing a relay to control the facet pump.  There is not reason to try to "Isolate" the pump from the rest of the electrical system.  You only complicate the electrical, and increase risk of a failure for absoluetly nothing.  The facet pump draws very little power and is not prone to electrical failures.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 09:35 AM 5/24/08 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Fuel systems should be pressure fed, that way a pinhole would be a very 

slow drip instead of a sudden  engine stoppage.  You also have vapor lock to 
	


consider, and a lot of other reasons that your fuel system should be 

pressure fed rather than having a pump suction fed from the tanks.   I had 

the standard fuel tanks on my MK III, and changed it so that the fuel pump 

is now below the level of the tanks.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Mike,



The nice thing about a suction system and feeding from the top of the tank 

is there is less likelihood of a fire.  I believe I would rather go with the 

silent engine rather than a fire.  But in both cases the chances of either 

are fairly small.



Jack B.

George Myers

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: San Marcos, Texas

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

I decided to make one of these and ordered a facet pump. Since I have an old

twinstar and only have a 5 gallon tank, bungee a 5 gal tank on the boom tube

just in front of the H frame. Doubles my range. Knowing how I am, I got to

worrying about what would happen if I left the pump running too long and the

main tank overflowed. So I got to thinking what would be nice would be to

pressurize the bottom tank a little at a time, forcing the gas into the top

tank as needed. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, so I ran a pickup

tube in through the cap using a grommet, and then a line from the top of the

tank with a grommet & L to the front next to the seat and put a cutoff valve

on it. Now after flying a while I just puff a lung full of air in the tube &

shut the valve. So long as it holds pressure I know I still have fuel in the

bottom tank. So long as I'm breathing I can transfer fuel. Works great.

Didn't cost me a penny. I have a little mirror I strap on my wrist as a fuel

gauge so when the tank gets down a gallon or two I go to huffin' & puffin'.

If anybody's interested I'll post some pictures. 

George

 



--

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

re: fuel pump relay.... call me quirky.

Guess I'm used to relays after many years in the HVAC business.

My old (homemade) water source heat pump is a Rube Goldberg heaven.

No flames at my house unless I light up the oxy acetylene.

water press switch, time delay relay for the fan, low temp relay,

+ stuff I can't remember.  Cheaper than ignition based heat.



BTW I'm living dangerously with the facet being my sole fuel supply.

Car engines seem to lack mechanical pumps with the advent of FI

BB

do not archive



On 24, May 2008, at 12:42 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Mark,



 Why would your engine quit if your Facet pump failed ?  Don't you  

 have an engine driven pump ?   Most installations have both, on my  

 Kolb the engine does not quit when I turn the Facet pump off.



 Also, there is no advantage to installing a relay to control the  

 facet pump.  There is not reason to try to "Isolate" the pump from  

 the rest of the electrical system.  You only complicate the  

 electrical, and increase risk of a failure for absoluetly nothing.   

 The facet pump draws very little power and is not prone to  

 electrical failures.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184644#184644

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Pretty innovative George.  Just don't go huffin' and SUCKIN"  heh heh



I have the standard two fives in my MkIII.  I have them top fed and  

valved for either/or

If my second tank is half full I will go both on the TO trip and  

single on the return.

  I also carry a mechanical transfer pump just in case.

At 2 1/2 GPH my 8 gallons usable gives me a decent range in the old  

tugboat.

BB

do not archive



On 24, May 2008, at 3:40 PM, George Myers wrote:



[quote] 



 I decided to make one of these and ordered a facet pump. Since I  

 have an old

 twinstar and only have a 5 gallon tank, bungee a 5 gal tank on the  

 boom tube

 just in front of the H frame. Doubles my range. Knowing how I am, I  

 got to

 worrying about what would happen if I left the pump running too  

 long and the

 main tank overflowed. So I got to thinking what would be nice would  

 be to

 pressurize the bottom tank a little at a time, forcing the gas into  

 the top

 tank as needed. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, so I ran  

 a pickup

 tube in through the cap using a grommet, and then a line from the  

 top of the

 tank with a grommet & L to the front next to the seat and put a  

 cutoff valve

 on it. Now after flying a while I just puff a lung full of air in  

 the tube &

 shut the valve. So long as it holds pressure I know I still have  

 fuel in the

 bottom tank. So long as I'm breathing I can transfer fuel. Works  

 great.

 Didn't cost me a penny. I have a little mirror I strap on my wrist  

 as a fuel

 gauge so when the tank gets down a gallon or two I go to huffin' &  

 puffin'.

 If anybody's interested I'll post some pictures.

 George

 --

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

 	  Quote: 	
		   re: fuel pump relay.... call me quirky.

 Guess I'm used to relays after many years in the HVAC business.

 My old (homemade) water source heat pump is a Rube Goldberg heaven.

 No flames at my house unless I light up the oxy acetylene.

 water press switch, time delay relay for the fan, low temp relay,

 + stuff I can't remember. Cheaper than ignition based heat.

 

 BTW I'm living dangerously with the facet being my sole fuel supply.

 Car engines seem to lack mechanical pumps with the advent of FI

 BB

 do not archive

 


	


   Bob, 

  

   Car engines don't have mechanical fuel pumps anymore, because they use those scary, prone to failure, explosive & always spookey...in-tank fuel pumps.     Oooooooooohhh!!!!!  (ghost noises!)

  

   Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL in-tank fuel pumps....brushless motors.   Ooooooh!    (more ghost noises)

  

 Mike Welch

Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>

Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:22 -0700

Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL in-tank fuel pumps....brushless motors.   Ooooooh!    (more ghost noises)

..........................

Mike,

I cut open the one that came out of the tank on my 96 GMC Sonoma and the 

pump had brushes.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 3 of 4

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum