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asarangan(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
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This is for builders in the U.S or Canada who have not bonded their
tanks yet. I am planning on sending my tank for additional
fluorination treatment prior to install. The cost is a mere $35/tank,
but the minimum charge is $425, so I am looking for anyone interested
in joining in the fun.
Although the newer Europa tanks are supposedly fluorinated, the
consensus seems to be that they are not done to the same level as
automotive tanks. There have been a number of scary stories and
pictures of swelling/splitting tanks and leaks, so the hope is that
one could avoid this catastrophe by spending the extra time and money
before the install.
The company is http://inhanceproducts.com/ (formerly fluoroseal). You
can look it up if you like.
Anyone interested please contact me. The idea is, you would clean and
bag the tank and ship it to me. I will drive them over to the vendor
in Columbus, OH, and then ship them back to you when they are done.
Obviously, I am not providing any guarantees of the process or any
assurances that it will even work. The vendor also says that if the
tank is not spotlessly clean, it can destroy the whole tank., so there
is some risks as well.
On the other hand, I would also appreciate hearing from anyone who has
done fluorination on their tanks, and have any thoughts on this
process.
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
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I had used the same company to fluorinate my circa 2001 tank to the highest "automotive level", and it did indeed come back with a much different "frosty" finish. So although I cannot attest to its effectiveness as it still  does not have fuel in it, the treatment surely did change the surface texture, so it must have penetrated more than the reported factory treatment. This is the same company that treats automotive fuel tanks to meet evaporative emissions standards, as well as at lower levels for items such as shampoo bottles etc. I did carefully clean my tank and cobra with naphtha, and wrapped and sealed them in poly inside a shipping crate to keep them clean and as a result I did not have any "burning" issues from the treatment. I followed the company's advise and made *all* finish cuts to the openings prior to treatment. To not do so (as per the factory tanks) negates the surface treatment as the fuel migrates into the material via the untreated cuts and subsequently swells and suffers long term embrittlement. I had gone it alone at the time as I could not find any other takers - hopefully Andrew will have better luck. I figured the cost is well worth the high likelihood that I will avoid the tank swelling and cracking others have had over the long term, with the resultant hacking in of a replacement down the road.
I am contemplating piggy-backing on this order to treat a small LDPE motorcycle fuel tank I had purchased, but need to first verify with that mfg if this tank's "x-linked PE" is compatible. They did not treat their tanks as they do not need to meet (off road) emissions std's, but experience has shown me that these tanks do smell up a garage.
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
A239 - still a pile of parts.
| Quote: | On Nov 4, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:
This is for builders in the U.S or Canada who have not bonded their
tanks yet. I am planning on sending my tank for additional
fluorination treatment prior to install. The cost is a mere $35/tank,
but the minimum charge is $425, so I am looking for anyone interested
in joining in the fun.
Although the newer Europa tanks are supposedly fluorinated, the
consensus seems to be that they are not done to the same level as
automotive tanks. There have been a number of scary stories and
pictures of swelling/splitting tanks and leaks, so the hope is that
one could avoid this catastrophe by spending the extra time and money
before the install.
The company is http://inhanceproducts.com/ (formerly fluoroseal). You
can look it up if you like.
Anyone interested please contact me. The idea is, you would clean and
bag the tank and ship it to me. I will drive them over to the vendor
in Columbus, OH, and then ship them back to you when they are done.
Obviously, I am not providing any guarantees of the process or any
assurances that it will even work. The vendor also says that if the
tank is not spotlessly clean, it can destroy the whole tank., so there
is some risks as well.
On the other hand, I would also appreciate hearing from anyone who has
done fluorination on their tanks, and have any thoughts on this
process.
|
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asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
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Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
even more important in hot climates.
I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I had used the same company to fluorinate my circa 2001 tank to the highest "automotive level", and it did indeed come back with a much different "frosty" finish. So although I cannot attest to its effectiveness as it still does not have fuel in it, the treatment surely did change the surface texture, so it must have penetrated more than the reported factory treatment. This is the same company that treats automotive fuel tanks to meet evaporative emissions standards, as well as at lower levels for items such as shampoo bottles etc. I did carefully clean my tank and cobra with naphtha, and wrapped and sealed them in poly inside a shipping crate to keep them clean and as a result I did not have any "burning" issues from the treatment. I followed the company's advise and made *all* finish cuts to the openings prior to treatment. To not do so (as per the factory tanks) negates the surface treatment as the fuel migrates into the material via the untreated cuts and subse!
quently swells and suffers long term embrittlement. I had gone it alone at the time as I could not find any other takers - hopefully Andrew will have better luck. I figured the cost is well worth the high likelihood that I will avoid the tank swelling and cracking others have had over the long term, with the resultant hacking in of a replacement down the road.
I am contemplating piggy-backing on this order to treat a small LDPE motorcycle fuel tank I had purchased, but need to first verify with that mfg if this tank's "x-linked PE" is compatible. They did not treat their tanks as they do not need to meet (off road) emissions std's, but experience has shown me that these tanks do smell up a garage.
|
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:54 am Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
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Andrew,
Two questions:
1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn’t
fried?
2. What is the timing on procedure?
I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
even more important in hot climates.
I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
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|
Bob
Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be
removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can
'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank
first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces
static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I
got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had
vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with
cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then
repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates
all surfaces. That's my plan anyway.
Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the
automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we
deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But
they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks.
My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But
if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Andrew,
Two questions:
1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn’t
fried?
2. What is the timing on procedure?
I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
even more important in hot climates.
I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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petermorgans181(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:47 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
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|
Hi,
I'm new to the List, but just my two pennies worth: I thought the tank was made from polypropylene, not polyethylene.
Regards
Peter Morgans
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 19:54
Subject: Re: Fuel tank fluorination
--> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>
Andrew,
Two questions:
1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn’t
fried?
2. What is the timing on procedure?
I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com (asarangan(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
even more important in hot climates.
I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tribution" sp; &matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronicsttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/=================
[quote][b]
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rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:50 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
|
|
I suggest that you re-think your sequence. Perhaps you scheme will actually
get the tank clean but since both acetone and isopropyl alcohol are polar
solvents they won't do a thing to remove oils which are by definition
non-polar. Water is another rather well known polar solvent and I'm certain
that you realize that water alone won't remove the oils. A lighter
non-polar solvent (such as paint thinner) will get the oils out and then the
detergent (polar at one end of the molecule and non-polar at the other end)
in water will get rid of the residue. Acetone will do a nice job of
gathering up the water after getting rid of the oils. The fabric softener
will probably adhere nicely to the tank's surface (that's how it works).
In the spirit of the old adage about being better safe than sorry, I must
point out that gasoline is also a non-polar solvent and some folks have been
known to set themselves on fire using it as an oil removing solvent. I
would not expect anyone on this list to try for a Darwin Award, so I
probably did not even need to mention this.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics a work in progress
--
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asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
|
|
I am not a chemist, but I am certain acetone is a dipolar solvent - it
works for polar as well as some nonpolar liquids. I use it for
removing oils, lubricants, glue and paint.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Rob Housman <rob(at)hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
[quote]
I suggest that you re-think your sequence. Perhaps you scheme will actually
get the tank clean but since both acetone and isopropyl alcohol are polar
solvents they won't do a thing to remove oils which are by definition
non-polar. Water is another rather well known polar solvent and I'm certain
that you realize that water alone won't remove the oils. A lighter
non-polar solvent (such as paint thinner) will get the oils out and then the
detergent (polar at one end of the molecule and non-polar at the other end)
in water will get rid of the residue. Acetone will do a nice job of
gathering up the water after getting rid of the oils. The fabric softener
will probably adhere nicely to the tank's surface (that's how it works).
In the spirit of the old adage about being better safe than sorry, I must
point out that gasoline is also a non-polar solvent and some folks have been
known to set themselves on fire using it as an oil removing solvent. I
would not expect anyone on this list to try for a Darwin Award, so I
probably did not even need to mention this.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics a work in progress
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: Fuel tank fluorination |
|
|
Andrew,
Let me acquire the necessary agents and get it clean and I’ll get back
with you for a mailing address. Should have it done by Tuesday. With
any luck, it could by at your place by Friday or Monday.
While the tank is off for treatment, I guess I’ll have to find other
things to do for a while.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Nov 9, 2013, at 5:57 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Bob
Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be
removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can
'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank
first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces
static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I
got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had
vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with
cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then
repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates
all surfaces. That's my plan anyway.
Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the
automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we
deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But
they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks.
My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But
if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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