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f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:37 am Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/16/14 |
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Cheers,
Lance's message below reminded me that we had discussed cockpit
versus aft fuse pressures before. It has been almost unanimous that it's
higher out back than in front. HOWEVER, have we measured the two pressures
against ambient ouside? maybe cockpit is lower than ambient, perhaps afte is
higher than ambient - perhaps they are either side of ambient- or both over
- or under?
It seems to me that we should establish which is who, and then
decide what to use in the discussion. Open to Flames.......
Ferg C-FFGG
still in the hangar
In OZ, in the strictly controlled era prior to experimental regulations,
(pre 1999). Our Civil aviation released an Airworthiness Directive for
Europa Aircraft stating there should be no airflow between the cockpit and
the rear fuselage. Their concern was, with the pressure rear of the bulkhead
being higher than the cockpit, engine exhaust could be drawn into the rear
fuselage via the flap slots and find its way into the cockpit. This AD was
withdrawn with the advent of experimental aviation with responsibility being
handed to the builder. Sorry I cant find the copy I thought I had.
Regards
Lance Sandford in OZ
On 14/05/14 03:49, Frans Veldman wrote:
| Quote: |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 05/13/2014 12:07 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
>
> Hi Fran's, I expect the pressure in the aft fuselage might be more
> representative than cockpit pressure,
Not in my airplane. In my airplane the aft fuselage seems to be of
higher pressure than the cockpit. I installed a vent in the D-panel
with the intention to let the air out, but it is blowing into the
cockpit instead! I have no idea where the air is leaving again as
every opening in the cockpit seems to be blowing inward (and yes my
doors are sealed with a center pin arrangement). Also I don't
understand why the aft fuselage is pressurised. The main openings in
the aft fuselage are the tailplane drive slots but it looks to me they
are in a low pressure area. The slots for the flap drive are covered
by the wing root fairings so they are normally sealed in flight. The
only other openings are the small openings for the rudder cable and
one small opening in the sternpost for the rudder drive rod.
> Believe it or not I have this Nylaflow? Tubing, the hard walled
> opaque stuff from ACS, and it makes an excellent push to fit. I am
> tempted to use the 3/8" OD inside a 3/8" ID joiner, and just push
> them together. Very un-aviation, but if you've ever done it, you'll
> appreciate how hard they are to pull apart, and no vibration is
> going to do it.
I have used this equipment to plumb my entire pitot/static system.
Only for the wing to fuselage connection I use the "official" quick
(dis)connect fittings. I agree that it is great stuff.
Frans
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=LAm1
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/16/14 |
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I can verify that on the Classic I used to fly, flaps down at low speed you could smell exhaust fumes in the cockpit.
Graham
From: "f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca" <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 May 2014, 19:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/16/14
--> Europa-List message posted by: <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca (f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca)>
Cheers,
Lance's message below reminded me that we had discussed cockpit
versus aft fuse pressures before. It has been almost unanimous that it's
higher out back than in front. HOWEVER, have we measured the two pressures
against ambient ouside? maybe cockpit is lower than ambient, perhaps afte is
higher than ambient - perhaps they are either side of ambient- or both over
- or under?
It seems to me that we should establish which is who, and then
decide what to use in the discussion. Open to Flames.......
Ferg C-FFGG
still in the hangar
In OZ, in the strictly controlled era prior to experimental regulations,
(pre 1999). Our Civil aviation released an Airworthiness Directive for
Europa Aircraft stating there should be no airflow between the cockpit and
the rear fuselage. Their concern was, with the pressure rear of the bulkhead
being higher than the cockpit, engine exhaust could be drawn into the rear
fuselage via the flap slots and find its way into the cockpit. This AD was
withdrawn with the advent of experimental aviation with responsibility being
handed to the builder. Sorry I cant find the copy I thought I had.
Regards
Lance Sandford in OZ
On 14/05/14 03:49, Frans Veldman wrote:
| Quote: |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 05/13/2014 12:07 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Hi Fran's, I expect the pressure in the aft fuselage might be more
> representative than cockpit pressure,
Not in my airplane. In my airplane the aft fuselage seems to be of
higher pressure than the cockpit. I installed a vent in the D-panel
with the intention to let the air out, but it is blowing into the
cockpit instead! I have no idea where the air is leaving again as
every opening in the cockpit seems to be blowing inward (and yes my
doors are sealed with a center pin arrangement). Also I don't
understand why the aft fuselage is pressurised. The main openings in
the aft fuselage are the tailplane drive slots but it looks to me they
are in a low pressure area. The slots for the flap drive are covered
by the wing root fairings so they are normally sealed in flight. The
only other openings are the small openings for the rudder cable and
one small opening in the sternpost for the rudder drive rod.
> Believe it or not I have this Nylaflow? Tubing, the hard walled
> opaque stuff from ACS, and it makes an excellent push to fit. I am
> tempted to use the 3/8" OD inside a 3/8" ID joiner, and just push
> them together. Very un-aviation, but if you've ever done it, you'll
> appreciate how hard they are to pull apart, and no vibration is
> going to do it.
I have used this equipment to plumb my entire pitot/static system.
Only for the wing to fuselage connection I use the "official" quick
(dis)connect fittings. I agree that it is great stuff.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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ICHdYmmg2VudTdUacrM7
=LAm1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com
; -Matt Dralcontribution" =======
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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/16/14 |
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Graham and all those working,
I can attest to the exhaust gas ingestion, especially if you installed the NACA ducts supplied by the factory in the side of the aircraft forward of the windscreen at half height down the fuselage. The exhaust is a direct cockpit entry into the port NACA due to prop wash. Exhaust follows from the tailpipe up and over the port wing root.
I have the round vents in my corner of the windscreen glass and have installed them just under the glass on many of my owners aircraft and have no problem there. The exhaust does not quite get that high even at high angles of attack.
That said, I have my cockpit vented to the rear, as without it you lose some of the ram effect of the cockpit vents. That said, note that I seal my wing roots, my firewall and center tunnel are sealed completely and I find that my D panel actually pulls air out of the cockpit. The door seals work well enough on my aircraft that little leaks out of the cabin. As set up I have installed cockpit static pressure bypass valves in many of our aircraft and found the maximum error to be less than 50 feet and 2 knots to the XS static port. GPS runs confirm that the airspeed is quite accurate using the XS pitot static tube.
That said, the mono tends to be a bit drafty. On Jim Browns mono the inspection holes in the module and around the brake handle were really drafty. In fact it was like ram air. Seals helped in the winter. So I think there are more than a few reasons to test any non standard static port very thoroughly as each aircraft and builder is different. I would suggest a lengthy series of tests be accomplished or since the XS position of the static port is near ideal and factory confirmed, use it.
I have tested different pitot static lines and frankly I have used from 1/16 ID to 1/4 inch ID tubes and found them all to work. They just have to have tight connections. AC 43.13 1a and b covers testing and standard practices (everyone should down load the 43 series for reference and insomnia). The only requirement is that the pitot inlet to the free air stream be 1/4 inch OD but the tubing in the aircraft is unspecified.
Static positions are determined by the manufacturer. Line size is determined by the manufacturer. Most RV and Certified builders use 1/4 inch Nylaflow or aluminum line and the various connectors joints, elbows, sealants etc. Flexible tubing is fine also. Europa uses the 3mm polyurethane and I use the 1/8 ID 1/4 OD polyurethane tube as it is readily available and fits 1/8 barbs.
Bottom Line:
If it isn't broke why fix it. The tubing and connectors supplied by Europa works fine for me.
Bud
Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 22:55:04 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/16/14
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
I can verify that on the Classic I used to fly, flaps down at low speed you could smell exhaust fumes in the cockpit.
Graham
From: "f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca" <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 May 2014, 19:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/16/14
--> Europa-List message posted by: <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca (f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca)>
Cheers,
Lance's message below reminded me that we had discussed cockpit
versus aft fuse pressures before. It has been almost unanimous that it's
higher out back than in front. HOWEVER, have we measured the two pressures
against ambient ouside? maybe cockpit is lower than ambient, perhaps afte is
higher than ambient - perhaps they are either side of ambient- or both over
- or under?
It seems to me that we should establish which is who, and then
decide what to use in the discussion. Open to Flames.......
Ferg C-FFGG
still in the hangar
In OZ, in the strictly controlled era prior to experimental regulations,
(pre 1999). Our Civil aviation released an Airworthiness Directive for
Europa Aircraft stating there should be no airflow between the cockpit and
the rear fuselage. Their concern was, with the pressure rear of the bulkhead
being higher than the cockpit, engine exhaust could be drawn into the rear
fuselage via the flap slots and find its way into the cockpit. This AD was
withdrawn with the advent of experimental aviation with responsibility being
handed to the builder. Sorry I cant find the copy I thought I had.
Regards
Lance Sandford in OZ
On 14/05/14 03:49, Frans Veldman wrote:
| Quote: |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 05/13/2014 12:07 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Hi Fran's, I expect the pressure in the aft fuselage might be more
> representative than cockpit pressure,
Not in my airplane. In my airplane the aft fuselage seems to be of
higher pressure than the cockpit. I installed a vent in the D-panel
with the intention to let the air out, but it is blowing into the
cockpit instead! I have no idea where the air is leaving again as
every opening in the cockpit seems to be blowing inward (and yes my
doors are sealed with a center pin arrangement). Also I don't
understand why the aft fuselage is pressurised. The main openings in
the aft fuselage are the tailplane drive slots but it looks to me they
are in a low pressure area. The slots for the flap drive are covered
by the wing root fairings so they are normally sealed in flight. The
only other openings are the small openings for the rudder cable and
one small opening in the sternpost for the rudder drive rod.
> Believe it or not I have this Nylaflow? Tubing, the hard walled
> opaque stuff from ACS, and it makes an excellent push to fit. I am
> tempted to use the 3/8" OD inside a 3/8" ID joiner, and just push
> them together. Very un-aviation, but if you've ever done it, you'll
> appreciate how hard they are to pull apart, and no vibration is
> going to do it.
I have used this equipment to plumb my entire pitot/static system.
Only for the wing to fuselage connection I use the "official" quick
(dis)connect fittings. I agree that it is great stuff.
Frans
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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ICHdYmmg2VudTdUacrM7
=LAm1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com
; -Matt Dralcontribution" =======
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