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Questions about Z-08

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tomblejwas(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:59 am Post subject: Questions about Z-08

Bob,

 

In the postings on running an alternator without a battery, you suggested I consider your new draft Z-08, which is buried in the long stream on "EXP 2 Bus workaround."  The more I look at Z-08, the more I like the simplicity.  It seems to meet most of my design goals, but answers to a few questions would be helpful.

 

1.  What were your criteria in deciding to connect "Engine A" with a switch (1-3) and "Engine B" through a relay?  By the way, what does the "K2" inside a green hexagon indicate on the relays?

 

2.  You show both A and B connected to the "Motive Power Distribution Bus" through a single stud and bolt connector.   I've read that lock washers do little to prevent a bolt from loosening.  What do you do to give this type of connection the reliability one needs for critical components?  Or can we?  Wouldn't a different connection for A and B be prudent? 

 

3.  With respect to screw type connectors, what about the ground connection to the engine block?  The high vibration of a running engine would seem to make these especially susceptible to loosening.  What about two block connections going to two brass bolts through the firewall ground bus, or would this set up an electrically noisy ground loop?

 

4.  I found your discussions about single versus dual batteries and properly maintaining batteries to be interesting.  Since, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I've experienced a car battery shorting while I was  driving.  I accurately interpreted the limited info and stopped the car in a convenient place.  Yes, the battery did not get the kind of attention you have suggested.  But will the next owner of my plane be as conscientious as me?  So, what is the downside of changing the DC Power Master from OFF/BAT/BAT+ALT to OFF/ALT/ALT+BAT, assuming that ALT FIELD can be disconnected if the alternator needs to be disconnected?  If I did so, I would use an MGL Battery Monitor to see both voltage and current across the battery.

 

I appreciate your approach to challenging people like me to think through our decisions.  Great forum?  Thanks.



 

Tom



Thomas E. Blejwas

12 Via Entrada

Sandia Park, NM 87047

505-286-9294

tomblejwas(at)yahoo.com (tomblejwas(at)yahoo.com)

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: Questions about Z-08

At 01:57 PM 11/18/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

  

 In the postings on running an alternator without a battery, you suggested I consider your new draft Z-08, which is buried in the long stream on "EXP 2 Bus workaround."  The more I look at Z-08, the more I like the simplicity.  It seems to meet most of my design goals, but answers to a few questions would be helpful.

  

 1.  What were your criteria in deciding to connect "Engine A" with a switch (1-3) and "Engine B" through a relay? 	


    the wires associated with "A" go mostly cold with

    opening the battery contactor. The relay is a 'mini

    contactor' located adjacent to the battery hence

    the contactor control switch "B" on the panel



  	  Quote: 	
		    By the way, what does the "K2" inside a green hexagon indicate on the relays? 	


    Artifact reference designators not yet germane to the

    drawing. 



  	  Quote: 	
		   

 2.  You show both A and B connected to the "Motive Power Distribution Bus" through a single stud and bolt connector.  I've read that lock washers do little to prevent a bolt from loosening.  What do you do to give this type of connection the reliability one needs for critical components?  Or can we?  Wouldn't a different connection for A and B be prudent? 	




    The fuseblock connection is a stud that can

    be secured with a locking nut . . . unlike headed

    screws that engage threaded holes on popular terminal strips.



  	  Quote: 	
		   

 3.  With respect to screw type connectors, what about the ground connection to the engine block?  The high vibration of a running engine would seem to make these especially susceptible to loosening.  What about two block connections going to two brass bolts through the firewall ground bus, or would this set up an electrically noisy ground loop? 	


    You could use two straps to the engine if you

    wish . . . but some thread-locker on the single

    bolt would secure it. Vibration is not an automatic

    loosening force on a threaded fastener . . . it's

    mass who's cg is not centered on the bolt that

    provides loosening torque due to vibration. In this

    case, a terminal on a soft piece of wire or braid

    doesn't offer a significant mass.



  	  Quote: 	
		   

 4.  I found your discussions about single versus dual batteries and properly maintaining batteries to be interesting.  Since, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I've experienced a car battery shorting while I was driving.  I accurately interpreted the limited info and stopped the car in a convenient place.  Yes, the battery did not get the kind of attention you have suggested.  But will the next owner of my plane be as conscientious as me? 	


   It should be noted in your POH/Maintenance documents.

   There are numerous critical structures that receive

   annual and/or pre-flight inspection. Adding the battery(ies)

   to such a list isn't a far-fetched idea.



  	  Quote: 	
		    So, what is the downside of changing the DC Power Master from OFF/BAT/BAT+ALT to OFF/ALT/ALT+BAT, assuming that ALT FIELD can be disconnected if the alternator needs to be disconnected?  If I did so, I would use an MGL Battery Monitor to see both voltage and current across the battery. 	


    With the crowbar ov protection, you could

    do the DC power switching as a simple two-pole,

    on-off device. You can pull the breaker to

    kill the altenrator field circuit.



  	  Quote: 	
		   

 I appreciate your approach to challenging people like me to think through our decisions.  Great forum?  Thanks.

  	


   I'm pleased that you find value in the exercise.

   I believe that the attentive builder is a much

   lower-risk pilot because he is privy to things

   our flight instructors never told us . . . or were

   included in the cookie-cutter POH.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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l.p(at)talk21.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:57 pm Post subject: Questions about Z-08

Bob.

I have been unable to find any attachments pertaining to the Z-08 architecture that is being talked about.

Are you able to point me in the right direction please? 



When I receive the aeroelectric-list in e-mail form there are never any attachments with them.

Am I missing something?

Any help much appreciated.

Patrick Elliott.

G-LGEZ

 	  Quote: 	
		  "Attached are the preliminary sketches for my current

thoughts on an architecture for single battery, single

alternator, electrically dependent engine. This line of

thinking is being developed as an preferred alternative

to Z-19."

	


    

________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________

Time: 04:09:36 PM PST US

From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

Subject: Re: Questions about Z-08



At 01:57 PM 11/18/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



In the postings on running an alternator without a battery, you 

suggested I consider your new draft Z-08, which is buried in the 

long stream on "EXP 2 Bus workaround."  The more I look at Z-08, the 

more I like the simplicity.  It seems to meet most of my design 

goals, but  answers to a few questions would be helpful.



1.  What were your criteria in deciding to connect "Engine A" with a 

switch (1-3) and "Engine B" through a relay?


	


    the wires associated with "A" go mostly cold with

    opening the battery contactor. The relay is a 'mini

    contactor' located adjacent to the battery hence

    the contactor control switch "B" on the panel



 	  Quote: 	
		     By the way, what does the "K2" inside a green hexagon indicate on 

 the relays?


	


    Artifact reference designators not yet germane to the

    drawing.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

2.  You show both A and B connected to the "Motive Power 

Distribution Bus" through a single stud and bolt connector.  I've 

read that lock washers do little to prevent a bolt from 

loosening.  What do you do to give this type of connection the  

reliability one needs for critical components?  Or can we?  Wouldn't 

a different connection for A and B be prudent?


	




    The fuseblock connection is a stud that can

    be secured with a locking nut . . . unlike headed

    screws that engage threaded holes on popular terminal strips.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

3.  With respect to screw type connectors, what about the ground 

connection to the engine block?  The high vibration of a running 

engine would seem to make these especially susceptible to 

loosening.  What about two block connections going to two brass 

bolts through the firewall ground bus, or would this set up an 

electrically noisy ground loop?


	


    You could use two straps to the engine if you

    wish . . . but some thread-locker on the single

    bolt would secure it. Vibration is not  an automatic

    loosening force on a threaded fastener . . . it's

    mass who's cg is not centered on the bolt that

    provides loosening torque due to vibration. In this

    case, a terminal on a soft piece of wire or braid

    doesn't offer a significant mass.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

4.  I found your discussions about single versus dual batteries and 

properly maintaining batteries to be interesting.  Since, as I 

mentioned in an earlier post, I've experienced a car battery 

shorting while I was driving.  I accurately interpreted the limited 

info and stopped the car in a convenient place.  Yes, the battery 

did not get the kind of attention you have suggested.  But will the 

next owner of my plane be as conscientious as me?


	


   It should be noted in your POH/Maintenance documents.

   There are numerous  critical structures that receive

   annual and/or pre-flight inspection. Adding the battery(ies)

   to such a list isn't a far-fetched idea.



 	  Quote: 	
		     So, what is the downside of changing the DC Power Master from 

 OFF/BAT/BAT+ALT to OFF/ALT/ALT+BAT, assuming that ALT FIELD can be 

 disconnected if the alternator needs to be disconnected?  If I did 

 so, I would use an MGL Battery Monitor to see both voltage and 

 current across the battery.


	


    With the crowbar ov protection, you could

    do the DC power switching as a simple two-pole,

    on-off device. You can pull the breaker to

    kill the altenrator field circuit.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

I appreciate your approach to challenging people like me to think 

through our decisions.  Great forum?  Thanks.




	


   I'm pleased that you find value in the  exercise.

   I believe that the attentive builder is a much

   lower-risk pilot because he is privy to things

   our flight instructors never told us . . . or were

   included in the cookie-cutter POH.

   Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:57 am Post subject: Questions about Z-08

At 04:57 PM 11/19/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob.

I have been unable to find any attachments pertaining to the Z-08 

architecture that is being talked about.

Are you able to point me in the right direction please?

When I receive the aeroelectric-list in e-mail form there are never 

any attachments with them.

Am I missing something?

Any help much appreciated.

Patrick Elliott.


	


    I'm still studying the options for reliable

    attachment of illustrations to my postings. . .

    In the mean time, the discussions that drive

    the dialog on a new z-figure so far are

    illustrated in a preliminary release of

    figure Z-07. Seems Z-08 was recently used

    in another discussion so I've renumbered

    the drawing  you can download at:



    tinyurl.com/kbn6bys





   Bob . . .

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teblejw

Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: Questions about Z-08

I haven't figured out how to easily insert my response with parts of the message to which I'm responding.  Sorry for the difficulty this creates in understanding my comments.



1.  Bob, do I understand correctly, that a simple switch is suitable for  "Engine A" in Z-08  (now Z-07) because the switch will not usually be opened but rather the Main Battery Contactor will be opened instead? 



Assuming that the Motive Bus is in my cockpit, I don't see why the relay for "Engine B" is in the engine compartment instead of in the cockpit, requiring two wires penetrating the firewall, instead of just one.



2 & 3.  I appreciate your suggestions on securing stud-nut and engine-block connections.  Thanks.



4.  You suggested a double pole switch and the circuit breaker of the crowbar circuit could meet my needs, but this would allow the alternator and battery turned on together and then the alternator disconnected.  But I want to keep the alternator connected while I disconnect the battery, as well as possibly disconnecting the alternator using the circuit breaker.  Think I need  a 2-10 switch for this.  Correct?



Thanks. 



Tom

Sent from my iPad

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: Questions about Z-08

At 09:05 PM 11/21/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<tomblejwas(at)yahoo.com>



I haven't figured out how to easily insert my response with parts of 

the message to which I'm responding.  Sorry for the difficulty this 

creates in understanding my comments.


	


    Just hit 'reply' and the proposed outgoing

    message will start off with a copy of the

    message to which you are responding. Then

    simply edit to insert your comments/questions

    between line items of the subject matter.



 	  Quote: 	
		  1.  Bob, do I understand correctly, that a simple switch is suitable 

for  "Engine A" in Z-08  (now Z-07) because the switch will not 

usually be opened but rather the Main Battery Contactor will be 

opened instead?  Assuming that the Motive Bus is in my cockpit, I 

don't see why the relay for "Engine B" is in the engine compartment 

instead of in the cockpit, requiring two wires penetrating the 

firewall, instead of just one.


	


    The relay is a mini-battery contactor. It's purpose

    is to disconnect a battery feeder as close as practical

    to the battery. Engine A is not a battery feeder, Engine B

    is. Hence, the disconnect relay at the battery.



 	  Quote: 	
		  2 & 3.  I appreciate your suggestions on securing stud-nut and 

engine-block connections.  Thanks.



4.  You suggested a double pole switch and the circuit breaker of 

the crowbar circuit could meet my needs, but this would allow the 

alternator and battery turned on together and then the alternator 

disconnected.  But I want to keep the alternator connected while I 

disconnect the battery, as well as possibly disconnecting the 

alternator using the circuit breaker.  Think I need  a 2-10 switch 

for this.  Correct?


	


   Do you KNOW that you want to run the alternator

   without a battery? This is not commonly done . . .

   but it can be if you've conducted experiments to

   explore the conditions under which you can operate

   alternator only.



   Even if you use the 2-10 as suggested, there are

   no provisions for operating the altenrator without

   also having a battery on line.



   Bob . . .

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teblejw

Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: Questions about Z-08

Bob,



I had previously selected to get a daily e-mail, so I must look at the HTML version of the messages to reply.  When I do so, the message to which I am replying doesn't get copied into the new e-mail.



You stated under my #4:  "Even if you use the 2-10 as suggested, there are no provisions for operating the alternator without also having a battery on line." 



Assume I'm using an alternator that has a demonstrated ability to run without a battery (which I am) and that I am switched to Engine A.  I change the switching so that, while the engine is running, I can open the contactor, e.g., middle position of my earlier suggestion of OFF/ALT/ALT+BAT.  (If I need to disconnect the alternator while on ALT+BAT, I pull the circuit breaker in the crowbar circuit.)  Doesn't this accomplish "operating the alternator without also having a battery on line"?  I might also add switching to shut down the Main Power Distribution Bus.  



Thanks for your patience with my questions.



Tom



Sent from my iPad

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ngeorge(at)continentalmot
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: Questions about Z-08

Tom - 

Settings in your email application determine whether the original message is included in a reply...



Neal

=======================

Bob,



I had previously selected to get a daily e-mail, so I must look at the HTML version of the messages to reply.  When I do so, the message to which I am replying doesn't get copied into the new e-mail.

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