 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:38 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
 |
|
After 1100hrs I have suffered a failed fuel tank on my XS Mono. Not sure
exactly where the fault is other than it is high up on the tank. Will
know more when I get it out.
My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal
(aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as
supplied with the kit. If so, were you able to obtain the same volume
and any other advice you may be able to offer.
Many thanks
XS Mono
Kit 456
914 and Airmaster
1100hrs
Sue and Bill Sisley
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:10 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
The short answer is yes, cant remember who did it, a couple of years ago someone posted
Pictures of the new aluminium tank they created, it essentially removed the tunnel by having
A hole through the tank for the push rod and two small holes for the rudder cables, very good looking thing
And gave about 15 litres more capacity if memory serves
Regards
Craig
Kit 577 (trying to get the paint on)
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:28 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
I seem to recall that Miles McCallum made one out of magnesium alloy.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:17 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
and before that Mike Costin made an alumium one around 1998 ish.
Graham
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, 8 November 2013, 22:28
Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank
I seem to recall that Miles McCallum made one out of magnesium alloy.
[quote]www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.c* My Pilot Store [url=http://www.m rel=]www.mrr --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List[/url]==========
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:48 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Actually it was Nigel Graham. There is thread in the archives in May 2008
On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 5:16 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]and before that Mike Costin made an alumium one around 1998 ish.
Graham
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)>
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Friday, 8 November 2013, 22:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: XS Fuel Tank
I seem to recall that Miles McCallum made one out of magnesium alloy.
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spcialeffects
Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:08 am Post subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
This must be what we're talking about
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719
Came across it the other day while looking for fuel system installation ideas
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:56 am Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Hello Bill,
I'm a bit late getting back on this one but as others have said, I built a tank out of 5251 quarter-hard magnesium alloy.
It weighs 7850 grams and has a capacity of 110 litres.
I incorporated internal baffles, and breathers with proper AN fittings to accommodate alloy pipework. It is also fitted with a full length capacitive probe and four solid-state optical fuel level sensors.
| Quote: | http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719
The only advice I would offer is: allow yourself a long time to make and perfect your cardboard templates - the fuselage is partly conical in section so the development will be an interesting shape. Choose a welder based on his ability to weld alloy and don't fall into the trap I did of restricting yourself to a CAA approved welder whose self-belief exceeded his ability!
Nigel
|
On 08/11/2013 21:37, bill wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: bill <bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz> (bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz)
After 1100hrs I have suffered a failed fuel tank on my XS Mono. Not sure exactly where the fault is other than it is high up on the tank. Will know more when I get it out.
My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal (aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as supplied with the kit. If so, were you able to obtain the same volume and any other advice you may be able to offer.
Many thanks
XS Mono
Kit 456
914 and Airmaster
1100hrs
Sue and Bill Sisley
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:44 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Thank you Nigel,
Having got the top off now I can see that the leak is at the shelf on the front of the tank where it sits on the mount. It appears that the fibreglass had bonded to the tank and with movement caused a fracture due to the stress. Having looked at the tank now which is very deformed and reducing capacity, I am sure a "metal" one will be much superior. Fortunately there are some very good craftsman around here so fabrication will not be a problem. Not sure we will get to the same volume as you have but will certainly look for more than I have now. Will send some pic,s when all done.
Regards
Sue and Bill Sisley
On 12/11/2013 8:55 a.m., nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
[quote] Hello Bill,
I'm a bit late getting back on this one but as others have said, I built a tank out of 5251 quarter-hard magnesium alloy.
It weighs 7850 grams and has a capacity of 110 litres.
I incorporated internal baffles, and breathers with proper AN fittings to accommodate alloy pipework. It is also fitted with a full length capacitive probe and four solid-state optical fuel level sensors.
| Quote: | http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719
The only advice I would offer is: allow yourself a long time to make and perfect your cardboard templates - the fuselage is partly conical in section so the development will be an interesting shape. Choose a welder based on his ability to weld alloy and don't fall into the trap I did of restricting yourself to a CAA approved welder whose self-belief exceeded his ability!
Nigel
|
On 08/11/2013 21:37, bill wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: bill <bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz> (bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz)
After 1100hrs I have suffered a failed fuel tank on my XS Mono. Not sure exactly where the fault is other than it is high up on the tank. Will know more when I get it out.
My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal (aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as supplied with the kit. If so, were you able to obtain the same volume and any other advice you may be able to offer.
Many thanks
XS Mono
Kit 456
914 and Airmaster
1100hrs
Sue and Bill Sisley
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Hi Bill
If you are serious about constructing your own alloy tank, here are some of the issues that I considered carefully before embarking on what turned out to be a lengthy project.
Capacity
If you want to maximise capacity, the tank shape will be complex to take advantage of the available space. I went "full span" and put seamless tubes through to accommodate pitch control and rudder cables. Since you have sawed off the top of your cockpit module, there is now room to extend the tank vertically up by about 100 mm (to the door sill), this should give you an extra 18 litres. Restore the strength of the CM joint using standard "good composite practice".
This should not compromise the seating or baggage-bay access.
Mounting
The tank cannot sit on the bottom of the fuselage but should be clear. Incorporate supporting brackets to spread the (considerable) load to the front and rear of the cockpit module (seat back). Design in some method of allowing the tank to expand and contract - sitting it on a rubber or cork mat for instance.
Breathing
Use considerably larger breathers than were originally fitted - to prevent pressure build-up and blow-back while filling. If possible use two, one on each side of the tank. I routed mine up and then down, venting under the fuselage, to prevent siphoning or fuel dumping in the event that the aircraft ever flipped over.
Fuel Return
I pondered the ideal configuration for the fuel return line (discussed ad-nauseum since!) and opted to return it to the top of the tank. A vertical cross-drilled pipe inside the tank allows the fuel to dribble down without vapourising or having to contend with the back-pressure of a full tank.
Fuel Level Monitoring.
There are now far more options available to accurately monitor the fuel contents. Capacitance level sensors work well but are sensitive to fuel type, if you only ever use one type of fuel, this won't be an issue. They can be used with a "lookup table" to linearize the readout giving an accurate indication of fuel contents. Float switch stacks are the next option, (as supplied by Europa) they are reliable and not fuel sensitive but give a non-linear indication. I opted for the former but included four optical sensors to give an independent indication of fuel contents at "Full", 2/3 1/3 and "Reserve" and chose to delete the standard "stand pipe", which, without any method of isolating, I considered a safety risk.
Maintenance
Now is a good time to include an inspection hatch. Machine a large diameter "weld-in" ring with matching cover, tapped for at least six bolts. Include a groove to accept a Viton "O" ring to seal the joint. This cover also makes an ideal mount for the fuel level sender.
Good luck and keep us informed of progress.
Nigel
On 11/11/2013 22:43, bill wrote:
[quote] Thank you Nigel,
Having got the top off now I can see that the leak is at the shelf on the front of the tank where it sits on the mount. It appears that the fibreglass had bonded to the tank and with movement caused a fracture due to the stress. Having looked at the tank now which is very deformed and reducing capacity, I am sure a "metal" one will be much superior. Fortunately there are some very good craftsman around here so fabrication will not be a problem. Not sure we will get to the same volume as you have but will certainly look for more than I have now. Will send some pic,s when all done.
Regards
Sue and Bill Sisley
On 12/11/2013 8:55 a.m., nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
| Quote: | Hello Bill,
I'm a bit late getting back on this one but as others have said, I built a tank out of 5251 quarter-hard magnesium alloy.
It weighs 7850 grams and has a capacity of 110 litres.
I incorporated internal baffles, and breathers with proper AN fittings to accommodate alloy pipework. It is also fitted with a full length capacitive probe and four solid-state optical fuel level sensors.
| Quote: | http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719
The only advice I would offer is: allow yourself a long time to make and perfect your cardboard templates - the fuselage is partly conical in section so the development will be an interesting shape. Choose a welder based on his ability to weld alloy and don't fall into the trap I did of restricting yourself to a CAA approved welder whose self-belief exceeded his ability!
Nigel
|
On 08/11/2013 21:37, bill wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: bill <bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz> (bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz)
After 1100hrs I have suffered a failed fuel tank on my XS Mono. Not sure exactly where the fault is other than it is high up on the tank. Will know more when I get it out.
My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal (aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as supplied with the kit. If so, were you able to obtain the same volume and any other advice you may be able to offer.
Many thanks
XS Mono
Kit 456
914 and Airmaster
1100hrs
Sue and Bill Sisley
|
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:15 am Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Thanks for these tips Nigel, they will be a big help in putting my plan together.
Will keep you informed.
This Europa forum is a marvellous thing!
Cheers
Sue and Bill Sisley
On 12/11/2013 10:38 p.m., nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
[quote] Hi Bill
If you are serious about constructing your own alloy tank, here are some of the issues that I considered carefully before embarking on what turned out to be a lengthy project.
Capacity
If you want to maximise capacity, the tank shape will be complex to take advantage of the available space. I went "full span" and put seamless tubes through to accommodate pitch control and rudder cables. Since you have sawed off the top of your cockpit module, there is now room to extend the tank vertically up by about 100 mm (to the door sill), this should give you an extra 18 litres. Restore the strength of the CM joint using standard "good composite practice".
This should not compromise the seating or baggage-bay access.
Mounting
The tank cannot sit on the bottom of the fuselage but should be clear. Incorporate supporting brackets to spread the (considerable) load to the front and rear of the cockpit module (seat back). Design in some method of allowing the tank to expand and contract - sitting it on a rubber or cork mat for instance.
Breathing
Use considerably larger breathers than were originally fitted - to prevent pressure build-up and blow-back while filling. If possible use two, one on each side of the tank. I routed mine up and then down, venting under the fuselage, to prevent siphoning or fuel dumping in the event that the aircraft ever flipped over.
Fuel Return
I pondered the ideal configuration for the fuel return line (discussed ad-nauseum since!) and opted to return it to the top of the tank. A vertical cross-drilled pipe inside the tank allows the fuel to dribble down without vapourising or having to contend with the back-pressure of a full tank.
Fuel Level Monitoring.
There are now far more options available to accurately monitor the fuel contents. Capacitance level sensors work well but are sensitive to fuel type, if you only ever use one type of fuel, this won't be an issue. They can be used with a "lookup table" to linearize the readout giving an accurate indication of fuel contents. Float switch stacks are the next option, (as supplied by Europa) they are reliable and not fuel sensitive but give a non-linear indication. I opted for the former but included four optical sensors to give an independent indication of fuel contents at "Full", 2/3 1/3 and "Reserve" and chose to delete the standard "stand pipe", which, without any method of isolating, I considered a safety risk.
Maintenance
Now is a good time to include an inspection hatch. Machine a large diameter "weld-in" ring with matching cover, tapped for at least six bolts. Include a groove to accept a Viton "O" ring to seal the joint. This cover also makes an ideal mount for the fuel level sender.
Good luck and keep us informed of progress.
Nigel
On 11/11/2013 22:43, bill wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you Nigel,
Having got the top off now I can see that the leak is at the shelf on the front of the tank where it sits on the mount. It appears that the fibreglass had bonded to the tank and with movement caused a fracture due to the stress. Having looked at the tank now which is very deformed and reducing capacity, I am sure a "metal" one will be much superior. Fortunately there are some very good craftsman around here so fabrication will not be a problem. Not sure we will get to the same volume as you have but will certainly look for more than I have now. Will send some pic,s when all done.
Regards
Sue and Bill Sisley
On 12/11/2013 8:55 a.m., nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
| Quote: | Hello Bill,
I'm a bit late getting back on this one but as others have said, I built a tank out of 5251 quarter-hard magnesium alloy.
It weighs 7850 grams and has a capacity of 110 litres.
I incorporated internal baffles, and breathers with proper AN fittings to accommodate alloy pipework. It is also fitted with a full length capacitive probe and four solid-state optical fuel level sensors.
| Quote: | http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719
The only advice I would offer is: allow yourself a long time to make and perfect your cardboard templates - the fuselage is partly conical in section so the development will be an interesting shape. Choose a welder based on his ability to weld alloy and don't fall into the trap I did of restricting yourself to a CAA approved welder whose self-belief exceeded his ability!
Nigel
|
On 08/11/2013 21:37, bill wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: bill <bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz> (bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz)
After 1100hrs I have suffered a failed fuel tank on my XS Mono. Not sure exactly where the fault is other than it is high up on the tank. Will know more when I get it out.
My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal (aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as supplied with the kit. If so, were you able to obtain the same volume and any other advice you may be able to offer.
Many thanks
XS Mono
Kit 456
914 and Airmaster
1100hrs
Sue and Bill Sisley
|
|
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:19 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
[quote]
--
Bill:
I had been in the same tank situation as you. However the issue occurred at about 20 hours just as all the flight testing had been completed. The plane was down for maintenance and I drained the gas out of the tank as it was getting stale. Upon filling some time later gasoline started coming out of the plane almost as fast as it was being put in. Having the tank dry caused it to shrink back from its fuel expanded shape . The tank pulled away from one of the fiberglass mounts causing a good sized tear.
I was pretty soured at the situation as the tank is really the first thing put into the cockpit . After doing some research I had found out there are kit car companies out there that offer rotationally molded polyethelyne tanks. The sell them with one caveat. They will absolutely not warrantee them if they are fiberglassed into the car as instructed to in the Europa. My soured disposition turned to one of disgust. That along with changed priorities and financial situation has led to the plane being grounded for I don’t know how many years. The serial # is 143 so count from there. She gets pushed out in the driveway about every 10 weeks or so and the 914 is run for an hour cycling up and down at different RPM levels to prevent “engine atrophy”.
However I did spend some time at getting a new tank designed for aluminum construction and have a few thoughts, suggestions and many photos to provide. I am a mechanical engineer in an industrial facility and am presented with the opportunity to perform many design and repair/rework efforts that are similar to this .
The first issue is the fact that the tank does not come out whole if you want to leave the joggles that form your door window sills in place. I did not want to mess with these as they perform a major stiffening function in the fuselage top. The tank was cut up to get it out after taking the backrest top off. I do have a replacement polyethylene tank and attempted to place it in after making some spreader bars to perhaps push the fuselage out to allow the tank to drop back in. This was not successful as the it was putting too much stress on the structure for my liking. So it was on with designing an aluminum tank as was my original plan.
Now if you have some time to spend and are willing to look at things in a different way I believe you can come up with something much better than the original design. I had seen the aluminum tank design and how it closely approximates the original. I was going to approach it the same way. I faced some trepidation seeing all the welding and pockets and curves in the front section of the tank to clear the aileron mechanism spar etc and still keep an acceptable volume in the tank.
The original tank is 41” wide, the replacement unit would have to be about 2.5” narrower in order to make it an easy re-installation. This is conservative .When ever I design one thing to fit in another and one of the pieces is a big project as far as time an money goes I have never been sorry in 20 years by making it fit loose instead of tight. Its a lot easier to take up space than it is to make new space. However I would be “losing volume” . I thought the tank was too small to begin with. (I did have the extended range tank, that has a new home in Erich Trombley’s bird). However with the top of the back rest off and looking at the stock tank , it became readily apparent that there was an opportunity to be had. The largest horizontal cross section of the tank is at the top. This will give the greatest incremental increase in fuel capacity for each incremental increase in height. Using a conservative measurement of 38” span wise and 11” wide you get about 1.75 gallons for each inch in height. There are also other opportunities to be had.
Now with this thought in mind I saw that the complications with forming the aluminum and shaping the replacement like the original with tight clearances down low are slowly fading away. Design for excess clearance in order to make mounting and access for maintenance easier and make up the lost volume up high. The CG will also favor the front (the good direction). Without the complicated shapes the whole tank may be able to be made with 5 to 7 larger pieces with less welding required (see photos with patterns). My tank pattern has much more clearance around the spar and aileron bell cranks. The central tunnel is much larger. You can get your hands inside from the access panels. I had thought about having all the fuel fittings come out in the tunnel pointing in to the center instead of coming out the front of the tank to make re plumbing it easier.
The tank comes up in height several inches, but also it is built up to form the mounting surface for the back rest pads as shown. The space between the 2 rests has been omitted and it is one continuous cross section from left to right. With this tank I would also get rid of the “fuel filler cobra”. Note the cap on the aluminum fuel cell in the photos. A cap like this would go on the right side of the right head rest area just inside the door. You open the door to refuel. This is what is done when the extended range tank is filled anyway. The large opening makes filling easy and does not present the venting issues with the cobra. My rough calculations give the tank about 3~4 gals greater fuel capacity than original.
You will also be able to customize your reserve side to your liking as you will need to put a baffle in for stiffening. A suggestion would be to make the baffle all the way to the top and add perforations on the top side to dampen fuel sloshing from left to right when banking. When re-plumbing the line to the reserve side adding a “T” to it and going back to the primary side will allow you to use the fuel left in the main when you switched to the reserve. You will have to put a check valve in to keep from drawing on the reserve during normal operation.
Of course you need to design in all the fittings. vents, return , fuel gauge etc. Put in a ball valve for draining and an extra fitting for aux fuel hook up.
Caveats:
I have not built up the tank , but use these thoughts and photos as a guide of sorts to start the effort. This is how I would do it. Kim Prout inspected my original build and had no qualms with my workmanship and techniques. The plane flew hands off and was very stable. At this time there are no plans to ever fly it again. I may decide to part it out when I get tired of pushing it in and out of the garage.
It looks like I can only attach 3 photos at a time so I will send additional reply submissions
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
209.92 KB |
| Viewed: |
6912 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
185.11 KB |
| Viewed: |
6912 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
192.44 KB |
| Viewed: |
6912 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Thank you for all of this info Steve, it will be a big help as I reconstruct mine. My current plan is pretty much in line with what you have done so far. At the end I should come out of this with a more robust tank with a greater volume and a better CofG that I get now using the Europa long rage axillary tank that sits in the baggage bay. Will let you know how I get on.
Regards
Sue and Bill Sisley
On 14/11/2013 5:19 p.m., hagargs wrote:
[quote] body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;} [quote]
--
Bill:
I had been in the same tank situation as you. However the issue occurred at about 20 hours just as all the flight testing had been completed. The plane was down for maintenance and I drained the gas out of the tank as it was getting stale. Upon filling some time later gasoline started coming out of the plane almost as fast as it was being put in. Having the tank dry caused it to shrink back from its fuel expanded shape . The tank pulled away from one of the fiberglass mounts causing a good sized tear.
I was pretty soured at the situation as the tank is really the first thing put into the cockpit . After doing some research I had found out there are kit car companies out there that offer rotationally molded polyethelyne tanks. The sell them with one caveat. They will absolutely not warrantee them if they are fiberglassed into the car as instructed to in the Europa. My soured disposition turned to one of disgust. That along with changed priorities and financial situation has led to the plane being grounded for I don’t know how many years. The serial # is 143 so count from there. She gets pushed out in the driveway about every 10 weeks or so and the 914 is run for an hour cycling up and down at different RPM levels to prevent “engine atrophy”.
However I did spend some time at getting a new tank designed for aluminum construction and have a few thoughts, suggestions and many photos to provide. I am a mechanical engineer in an industrial facility and am presented with the opportunity to perform many design and repair/rework efforts that are similar to this .
The first issue is the fact that the tank does not come out whole if you want to leave the joggles that form your door window sills in place. I did not want to mess with these as they perform a major stiffening function in the fuselage top. The tank was cut up to get it out after taking the backrest top off. I do have a replacement polyethylene tank and attempted to place it in after making some spreader bars to perhaps push the fuselage out to allow the tank to drop back in. This was not successful as the it was putting too much stress on the structure for my liking. So it was on with designing an aluminum tank as was my original plan.
Now if you have some time to spend and are willing to look at things in a different way I believe you can come up with something much better than the original design. I had seen the aluminum tank design and how it closely approximates the original. I was going to approach it the same way. I faced some trepidation seeing all the welding and pockets and curves in the front section of the tank to clear the aileron mechanism spar etc and still keep an acceptable volume in the tank.
The original tank is 41” wide, the replacement unit would have to be about 2.5” narrower in order to make it an easy re-installation. This is conservative .When ever I design one thing to fit in another and one of the pieces is a big project as far as time an money goes I have never been sorry in 20 years by making it fit loose instead of tight. Its a lot easier to take up space than it is to make new space. However I would be “losing volume” . I thought the tank was too small to begin with. (I did have the extended range tank, that has a new home in Erich Trombley’s bird). However with the top of the back rest off and looking at the stock tank , it became readily apparent that there was an opportunity to be had. The largest horizontal cross section of the tank is at the top. This will give the greatest incremental increase in fuel capacity for each incremental increase in height. Using a conservative measurement of 38” span wise and 11” wide you get about 1.75 gallons for each inch in height. There are also other opportunities to be had.
Now with this thought in mind I saw that the complications with forming the aluminum and shaping the replacement like the original with tight clearances down low are slowly fading away. Design for excess clearance in order to make mounting and access for maintenance easier and make up the lost volume up high. The CG will also favor the front (the good direction). Without the complicated shapes the whole tank may be able to be made with 5 to 7 larger pieces with less welding required (see photos with patterns). My tank pattern has much more clearance around the spar and aileron bell cranks. The central tunnel is much larger. You can get your hands inside from the access panels. I had thought about having all the fuel fittings come out in the tunnel pointing in to the center instead of coming out the front of the tank to make re plumbing it easier.
The tank comes up in height several inches, but also it is built up to form the mounting surface for the back rest pads as shown. The space between the 2 rests has been omitted and it is one continuous cross section from left to right. With this tank I would also get rid of the “fuel filler cobra”. Note the cap on the aluminum fuel cell in the photos. A cap like this would go on the right side of the right head rest area just inside the door. You open the door to refuel. This is what is done when the extended range tank is filled anyway. The large opening makes filling easy and does not present the venting issues with the cobra. My rough calculations give the tank about 3~4 gals greater fuel capacity than original.
You will also be able to customize your reserve side to your liking as you will need to put a baffle in for stiffening. A suggestion would be to make the baffle all the way to the top and add perforations on the top side to dampen fuel sloshing from left to right when banking. When re-plumbing the line to the reserve side adding a “T” to it and going back to the primary side will allow you to use the fuel left in the main when you switched to the reserve. You will have to put a check valve in to keep from drawing on the reserve during normal operation.
Of course you need to design in all the fittings. vents, return , fuel gauge etc. Put in a ball valve for draining and an extra fitting for aux fuel hook up.
Caveats:
I have not built up the tank , but use these thoughts and photos as a guide of sorts to start the effort. This is how I would do it. Kim Prout inspected my original build and had no qualms with my workmanship and techniques. The plane flew hands off and was very stable. At this time there are no plans to ever fly it again. I may decide to part it out when I get tired of pushing it in and out of the garage.
It looks like I can only attach 3 photos at a time so I will send additional reply submissions
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:09 am Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
On 11/08/2013 10:37 PM, bill wrote:
| Quote: | My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal
(aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as
supplied with the kit.
|
Why would you do that? Metal tanks can also leak.
There are a few things to consider:
1) Metal is heavier.
2) The plastic tank offers great safety in a moderate crash. A metal
fuel tank will likely rupture catastrophycally, releasing its full
capacity at once in your lap or under your seat. Metal will spark when
it scratches the surface (which will happen if you loose the gear during
the mishap) igniting the fuel instantly. Metal fuel tanks are sort of ok
in the wing, but I would never ever want one just behind my back, with
its bottom just above the belly of the airplane.
3) A metal tank will cause much more water in the fuel. Moisture in the
air will settle against the cold metal walls of the fuel tank and
eventual run down and cause a pool of water at the bottom of the tank.
I think a good quality plastic tank is preferable in our situation. Too
bad that some of the supplied tanks were of inferior quality, but it
doesn't have to be like that.
Frans
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:42 pm Post subject: XS Fuel Tank |
|
|
Frans
These are very good points, and I wondered about them myself. To add
to that list, plastic tanks are seamless constructions and do not
rust. UV damage is an issue in boats (where they may be exposed to
direct sun), but probably not a concern in aircraft. It is also
partially transparent so it is possible to use an optical level sensor
from the outside of the tank.
If made from the right plastic and installed correctly, I think a
plastic tank should be significantly better. Unfortunately, the Europa
tanks are not made from the right kind of plastic, and the
installation method is flawed.
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 11/08/2013 10:37 PM, bill wrote:
> My question to the forum is, has anyone tried fabricating a metal
> (aluminium) tank rather than using the Polyethylene plastic one as
> supplied with the kit.
Why would you do that? Metal tanks can also leak.
There are a few things to consider:
1) Metal is heavier.
2) The plastic tank offers great safety in a moderate crash. A metal
fuel tank will likely rupture catastrophycally, releasing its full
capacity at once in your lap or under your seat. Metal will spark when
it scratches the surface (which will happen if you loose the gear during
the mishap) igniting the fuel instantly. Metal fuel tanks are sort of ok
in the wing, but I would never ever want one just behind my back, with
its bottom just above the belly of the airplane.
3) A metal tank will cause much more water in the fuel. Moisture in the
air will settle against the cold metal walls of the fuel tank and
eventual run down and cause a pool of water at the bottom of the tank.
I think a good quality plastic tank is preferable in our situation. Too
bad that some of the supplied tanks were of inferior quality, but it
doesn't have to be like that.
Frans
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
