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AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: One wing Low

I have been trying to figure out why my airplane flies One Wing Low on the left wing. 

I have tried a number of things to see if I could get the wing up. Bud suggested that I tape a couple of pencils to the opposite Aileron and that helped, but not help that much. 

 

I have lower the flap on the left and that has helped in the cruise flight, but as soon as I slow down the wing well drop. I have attached a couple of picture showing the aileron that I need for cruise flight. 

 

When I installed the W26A I took pictures of both wings showing 2.5 degrees. I also took picture of the string across the wings tips. 

Yesterday, I took measurement of the wings using a 'T"-square. The measure show that the wing is installed very close as I also took measurement off another Europa in the hangar. 

My measurements were as follows: 

Left Tip             F/A           Root     Root          F/A                  Tip 

8 Â¼â€                 8 7/16â€     8 7/8"   9 1/2"       8 1/2"             8 1/4" 

 

F/A stand for mid wing where flaps and aileron come together. 

I then took measurement from the tail plane tips to the aileron tip break out.  133â€ and 131 Â¾â€ maybe 7/8â€.

I took an inside measurement from the fuselage tail plane leading edge to the aileron break out of 165 7/8â€ and 165â€

 

Iâ€™m thinking that I might place a shim in the left W26A and move the wing forward. The inch that it seems is out.

Iâ€™d like to hear from you your thoughts regarding what I might do to correct it.

One other thing, I weight 250lbs.  I have put sand bags up to 150lbs in the right seat.  It did not help with my problem.

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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: One wing Low

For what it's worth, I think you could have one wingtip inches ahead/behind the other and if the angle of incidence was the same on both, there would be negligible roll. Remember that the wing that is more aft is still producing in essence the same amount of lift. A smart bunny might be able to work it out but there just isn't anything in it. To move any primary structure now would be an immense gig. There has tobe other tweaks.

Tony R.



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 5 Dec 2013, at 2:46 pm, "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 I have been trying to figure out why my airplane flies One Wing Low on the left wing. 

 I have tried a number of things to see if I could get the wing up. Bud suggested that I tape a couple of pencils to the opposite Aileron and that helped, but not help that much. 

 

 I have lower the flap on the left and that has helped in the cruise flight, but as soon as I slow down the wing well drop. I have attached a couple of picture showing the aileron that I need for cruise flight. 

 

 When I installed the W26A I took pictures of both wings showing 2.5 degrees. I also took picture of the string across the wings tips. 

 Yesterday, I took measurement of the wings using a 'T"-square. The measure show that the wing is installed very close as I also took measurement off another Europa in the hangar. 

 My measurements were as follows: 

 Left Tip             F/A           Root     Root          F/A                  Tip 

 8 Â¼â€                 8 7/16â€     8 7/8"   9 1/2"       8 1/2"             8 1/4" 

 

 F/A stand for mid wing where flaps and aileron come together. 

 I then took measurement from the tail plane tips to the aileron tip break out.  133â€ and 131 Â¾â€ maybe 7/8â€.

 I took an inside measurement from the fuselage tail plane leading edge to the aileron break out of 165 7/8â€ and 165â€

 

 Iâ€™m thinking that I might place a shim in the left W26A and move the wing forward. The inch that it seems is out.

 Iâ€™d like to hear from you your thoughts regarding what I might do to correct it.

 One other thing, I weight 250lbs.  I have put sand bags up to 150lbs in the right seat.  It did not help with my problem.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414886#414886

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/wings__25_degrees_269.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_wings__25_degrees_208.jpg

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: One wing Low

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On 12/05/2013 05:46 AM, AirEupora wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have been trying to figure out why my airplane flies One Wing

 Low on the left wing.


	


Check the rudder. If the rudder isn't balanced and giving some input

all the time, you have to fly one wing low to correct it.



What exactly to you mean with "one wing low"?

a) It is flying straight and level with one wing low.

b) It tends to make a curve all the time and the bank angle keeps

increasing if you let go of the stick. If you push it straight with

the stick, both wings are level.



If it is a) then it is a rudder problem.



If I understand your measurements correctly, the wings are balanced

enough not to create serious problems.



Frans

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: One wing Low

To Air Europa,

It seems to me you should clarify whether you are experiencing a One Wing Low or a One Wing Heavy condition, as the causes and remedies may be different.

1. One Wing Heavy:  you need to apply constant pressure to the stick. As soon as you release it, the left wing drops and the aircraft turns to the left. If this is what you are experiencing, I think you have done the right things: adjusting the flaps and adding some sort of trim tabs to the aileron. These should solve the problem, but only for a given load, a given power setting and a given airspeed. When you slow down, for example, the compensation is less effective and the aircraft wants to turn left again. This is normal. There is probably nothing wrong with your aircraft: the Europa is very sensitive to the lateral repartition of the load. It makes a big difference between flying solo and flying with a passenger, even with lightweight persons. The ultimate solution is to install an in flight adjustable trim system to the ailerons and possibly to the rudder. These will allow to fly hands free in all conditions, climb, cruise, descent, solo or fully loaded.

2. One Wing Low: let's say you are flying with no pressure on the rudder pedals nor on the stick  and the aircraft is flying on a constant heading and you see your left wing is lower than the right one.  The ball of your slip indicator is offset to the left, confirming your wings are not level. That means that the aircraft is flying in a stabilized forward slip. Then push the rudder pedal to the left to center the ball and press the stick to the right to prevent the aircraft from turning left. Then, you will be flying straight and level, but with some constant pressure applied to the controls. Add a tab to the rudder and adjust it until a constant push on the pedal is no longer necessary at cruise. You still have to press the stick to the right to fly straight and level, so you are now in the One Wing Heavy condition. Then refer to 1.

I hope that helps.

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL   XS Monowheel

<<<<<<<<I have been trying to figure out why my airplane flies One Wing Low on the left

wing. 

I have tried a number of things to see if I could get the wing up. Bud suggested

that I tape a couple of pencils to the opposite Aileron and that helped, but

not help that much. 



I have lower the flap on the left and that has helped in the cruise flight, but

as soon as I slow down the wing well drop.



One other thing, I weight 250lbs.  I have put sand bags up to 150lbs in the right

seat.  It did not help with my problem.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:03 am Post subject: One wing Low

If your systems allow it I would be tempted to fly it solo 

from the R seat. If you then find that it flies R wing 

down you have the answer. Thebplanebis so sensitive that I 

find that if I am flying in perfectly still air above the 

thermal layer I can fly the plane by weight shift, 

stretching a leg or leaning a bit to one side to go down 

or turn.

      If however it is still L down then I would do some 

accurate measures of the wing rigging angles, as it may 

well be that your R wing is rigged a fraction of a degree 

up from the L. Changing the rigging is not a practical 

proposition, so I suspect you would be in the situation of 

having to do a sizeable addition of a trim strip on your R 

aileron.

     Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 16:42:12 +0100

  Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

 

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Hash: SHA1

 

 On 12/05/2013 05:46 AM, AirEupora wrote:

 

> I have been trying to figure out why my airplane flies 

>One Wing

> Low on the left wing.

 

 Check the rudder. If the rudder isn't balanced and 

giving some input

 all the time, you have to fly one wing low to correct 

it.

 

 What exactly to you mean with "one wing low"?

 a) It is flying straight and level with one wing low.

 b) It tends to make a curve all the time and the bank 

angle keeps

 increasing if you let go of the stick. If you push it 

straight with

 the stick, both wings are level.

 

 If it is a) then it is a rudder problem.

 

 If I understand your measurements correctly, the wings 

are balanced

 enough not to create serious problems.

 

Frans

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Un/Subscription,

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ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: One wing Low

Do make sure that the ball is centred with rudder trim prior to addressing roll trim.



Ivan



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: One wing Low

Hi all.

I have a similar problem, my left wing want to drop , have to hold stick to the right, then hold on rudder to keep ball in centre.

Fly,s much better two up just a tiny bit of stick right.



I like the idea of an  adjustable aileron trim tab, but I rather go along and buy something off the shelf and a tube of Araldite, just don't have the time to spare,

Has anyone made up a radio controlled stick on trim tab, they must be some model makes out there, ie a little plastic teardrop fairing with AA battery and servo and arm to a stick on plastic trim tab, off the shelf with a tube of glue. Anyone,!! 

Regards.

Alan

Last edited by Alan Carter on Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: One wing Low

Alan

there is a stick on fix, the Gurney Flap.

Try a 6" long strip of narrow draught excluder foam, stick it on the underside of the right aileron trailing edge.

Test fly. The flap will nudge the aileron up a bit and counter the left roll tendency.

It works.

Graham





        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, 9 December 2013, 22:39

 Subject: Re: One wing Low

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hi all.

I have a similar problem, my left wing want to drop , have to hold stick to the right, then hold on rudder to keep ball in centre.

Fly,s much better two up just a tiny bit of stick right.



I like the idea of an  adjustable aileron trim tab, but I rather go along and buy something off the shelf and a tube of Araldite, just don't have the time to spare,

Has anyone made up a radio controlled stick on trim tab, they must be some model makes out there,

Regards.

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415253#415========================http://wwsp;                   -Matt Drropa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listnbsp;          - MATRONICS =======

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: One wing Low

Hi Graham.

Some one mention adjustable, I find a lot of difference flying one up.

It surprised me as to the amount of difference between flying one up and two up. so it would be nice to have something you can adjust from the cockpit.

Alan

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:30 pm Post subject: One wing Low

Maybe a simple spring adjustment in the cabin?



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:59 PM, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Graham.

 Some one mention adjustable, I find a lot of difference flying one up.

 It surprised me as to the amount of difference between flying one up and two up. so it would be nice to have something you can adjust from the cockpit.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415256#415256

bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject: One wing Low

I use a bungy cord cord from the stick to the centre tunnel. Adjustment 

is by a yacht rope cleat.



Low cost, simple to install and works a treat.



Sue and Bill Sisley

On 10/12/2013 11:59 a.m., Alan Carter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Graham.

 Some one mention adjustable, I find a lot of difference flying one up.

 It surprised me as to the amount of difference between flying one up and two up. so it would be nice to have something you can adjust from the cockpit.

 Alan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415256#415256

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:30 pm Post subject: One wing Low

If I understand the physics correctly..

For a lateral mass imbalance (the equivalent of) a sideways force on the 

stick that is proportional to g-force is in principle the only correct 

compensation.

A certain sideways force is only good at one g-force.

A certain aerodynamic correction is only good at one g-force and one 

airspeed.

The bungy cord (second best of these) looks good to me.

On 12/10/2013 1:52 AM, bill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I use a bungy cord cord from the stick to the centre tunnel. 

 Adjustment is by a yacht rope cleat.

 Low cost, simple to install and works a treat.

 Sue and Bill Sisley

 On 10/12/2013 11:59 a.m., Alan Carter wrote:

> 

> <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

>

> Hi Graham.

> Some one mention adjustable, I find a lot of difference flying one up.

> It surprised me as to the amount of difference between flying one up 

> and two up. so it would be nice to have something you can adjust from 

> the cockpit.

> Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:41 am Post subject: Re: One wing Low

Hi ALL.

No nothing about physics, I am sure all the ways suggested work, nice and simple, but maybe a little crude , however I like simple solutions but many C of A aeroplane have moving aileron trim tabs, and a little plastic tear drop with An AA battery and radio controlled servo hitched up to plastic tab, and a radio remote in the cockpit.

If we had a radio controlled model make out there, he could knock up a few and sell them on the forum, 

I made a fan unit for the top of the dash, maybe not quit as neat as the ones actually shaped into the the top of the panel, but I would say pretty close, and all I needed was an oblong hole , job done, I could have made several, just like the torque tube clamps are rolled out. We need a radio model plane maker to run up a few.

regards.

Alan

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:28 am Post subject: One wing Low

fwiw, my choice of sol'n is a Mac servo (purchased from ACS) hidden in the cockpit module, driving a very simply laid-up composite horseshoe spring. Complies with the std aviation paradigm of controlling and indicating, and no wires/composite/connectivity work in the wing.

  



I have this setup in my other homebuilt for pitch trim and it works a treat.



Cheers,

Pete

A239



  On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:41 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

[quote]  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

 

 Hi ALL.

 No nothing about physics, I am sure all the ways suggested work, nice and simple, but maybe a little crude , however I like simple solutions but many C of A aeroplane have moving aileron trim tabs, and a little plastic tear drop with An AA battery and radio controlled servo hitched up to plastic tab, and a radio remote in the cockpit.

   If we had a radio controlled model make out there, he could knock up a few and sell them on the forum,

 I made a fan unit for the top of the dash, maybe not quit as neat as the ones actually shaped into the the top of the panel, but I would say pretty close, and all I needed was an oblong hole , job done, I could have made several, just like the torque tube clamps are rolled out. We need a radio model plane maker to run up a few.

   regards.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415301#415301

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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europajimkelly(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: One wing Low

Hi Pete,              Would you be kind enough to explain your system to the uninitiated in detail.

Thanks Jim G-BWEG

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013, Peter Zutrauen  wrote:

[quote] fwiw, my choice of sol'n is a Mac servo (purchased from ACS) hidden in the cockpit module, driving a very simply laid-up composite horseshoe spring. Complies with the std aviation paradigm of controlling and indicating, and no wires/composite/connectivity work in the wing.

   



I have this setup in my other homebuilt for pitch trim and it works a treat.



Cheers,

Pete

A239



   On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:41 AM, Alan Carter <[url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'alancarteresq(at)onetel.net');]alancarteresq(at)onetel.net[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <[url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'alancarteresq(at)onetel.net');]alancarteresq(at)onetel.net[/url]>

 

 Hi ALL.

 No nothing about physics, I am sure all the ways suggested work, nice and simple, but maybe a little crude , however I like simple solutions but many C of A aeroplane have moving aileron trim tabs, and a little plastic tear drop with An AA battery and radio controlled servo hitched up to plastic tab, and a radio remote in the cockpit.

    If we had a radio controlled model make out there, he could knock up a few and sell them on the forum,

 I made a fan unit for the top of the dash, maybe not quit as neat as the ones actually shaped into the the top of the panel, but I would say pretty close, and all I needed was an oblong hole , job done, I could have made several, just like the torque tube clamps are rolled out. We need a radio model plane maker to run up a few.

    regards.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415301#415301

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

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 le, List Admin.

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[b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: Re: One wing Low

Hi All.

Peter sounds like you have it sorted, but you are a builder.

I may try to find a model maker who can make me a little teardrop bulge with servo and tab, I can , ( you see if you not a builder you can use the word,) glue to the underside of the aileron surface. maybe next year but for the time being looks like a spring bungee cord on the stick or just my hand and foot, and grim face.

Regards.

Alan

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:52 am Post subject: One wing Low

Alan, Beware of anything that is attached to the stick 

which could possibly slip and jam things, or get caught in 

a foot or whatever. I would feel a strip of balsa, 

plastic, draft excluder or whatever glued just under the 

trailing edge of the right aileron is a better temporary 

or permanent solution. Put a longish strip on initially 

and cut bits off to adjust - very simple and trouble free. 

I have a short strip of triangular section (like trailing 

edge of a balsa plane model) wood attached to my port 

aileron, and painted white - works a treat. Regards, David 

Joyce, G- XSDJ

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:34:25 -0800

  "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hi All.

 Peter sounds like you have it sorted, but you are a 

builder.

 I may try to find a model maker who can make me a little 

teardrop bulge with servo and tab, I can , ( you see if 

you not a builder you can use the word,) glue to the 

underside of the aileron surface. maybe next year but for 

the time being looks like a spring bungee cord on the 

stick or just my hand and foot, and grim face.

 Regards.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415333#415333

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:56 am Post subject: One wing Low

don't forget to re-balance the aileron if one modifies it 



Cheers,

Pete



On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

   

 Hi All.

 Peter sounds like you have it sorted, but you are a builder.

 I may try to find a model maker who can make me a little teardrop bulge with servo and tab, I can , ( you see if you not a builder you can use the word,) glue to the underside of the aileron surface. maybe next year but for the time being looks like a spring bungee cord on the stick or just my hand and foot, and grim face.

   Regards.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:13 am Post subject: One wing Low

Hi Alan 

 	You could probably go blue tooth for control, just use your smart phone. I installed a Ray Allen servo in my aileron with the top being flush with the top and the control horn exits the bottom. I have it controlling a piece of hinge on the trail edge of the aileron. Not a great shot, left aileron, view in 600 you can see the bottom of aileron: 

 	http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27605&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 

 	Don't forget you need to balance the aileron after you fool with it. I don't know how keen I would be to use a Lithium Polymer battery. For capacity, cheap, readily available and a very low self discharge, I would go with a quality alkaline. keeping them it as far forward as you can. Tungsten is heavier than lead, so you could try and find foam plugs in your balancing arms, or just drill and insert rods of tungsten (unless you can locate some depleted uranium rods surrounded with stainless steel).  Put a switch that is easily accessible to turn it off and some sort of battery indication you can check on your pre-flight. 

 	I know Steve D. was fooling with altitude hold: 

 	http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=24893 

 	Wonder if they make wing leveling too? Hmm, if you made a minimalist wing leveling tab, you could just leave it on wing level all the time when flying, it would always try to keep wings level, then when you want to bank, you could easily over ride it! 

 	  

 	Ron Parigoris    [quote][b]

clivesutton

Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: Re: One wing Low

For what its worth, I have a 180mm long strip of A4 document binder spine - a kind of 'A' section plastic extrusion - taped to the underside (and innermost edge) of my right aileron to remove the otherwise unbalanced roll forces at my cruise speed of 110kts.  I visually check the tape holding it on at each preflight check - has never been a problem, is cheap and has worked perfectly for three years.  Just vary the length to generate the upward aileron forces needed to make it effective at the speed you want it to work at.

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