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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: Illuminated Rocker switches - revisited |
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Carlos, based on my experience with these switches (350+ hours, <10%
(at)night), I'd suggest taking a different approach to using the lights.
I know you aren't necessarily looking for a different approach so I'll
first mention 2 problems with using the lights to indicated on/off
functionality:
1) The lights at full brightness are blinding at night. I'd suggest
that they must be (adjustably) dimmed in all modes unless they are
intended to signify a fault of some sort. I think that's what you are
trying to accomplish in Version C. In that case, I'm not sure how you
would accomplish full bright during daytime versus on and dimmed at
night. Additionally, the dimmer would need to be setup so that at it's
lowest setting, it would still be visible during day and night (difficult).
2) The switch lights are subject to a high frequency of failure. If the
application was for gear retract and 'light-on' meant 'all green', I'm
sure one would want to use a Honeywell series with an integrated lamp
wired to indicate on/off status. What's the problem with this series?
Well, once you've switched to LEDs, you've eliminated incandescent bulb
failures and that's good. None of my LED bulbs have failed. But the
bulbs do not seat reliably in these switches, at least not reliably
enough on our vibrating panels . If used for landing gear status -
you'd end up aborting the occasional landing for lamp socket unseats.
They may be okay for indicating a landing light is on but my experience
is that they will occasionally unseat. In my case, I use some
un-switched indicators with the same lamp socket. For my low oil fault
indicator, I glued the lamp in place to prevent unseats and avoid
missing a fault indication.
That said, I'm very happy with my panel switches but I took a slightly
different approach that aligns well with the switches' characteristics.
On my panel, the occasional bulb unseat is just a nuisance that is
easily detected and corrected.
The lighting on these switches are just 'back lighting' on my panel. At
night, their backlighting completely eliminates the need for post lights
or map lights to find, monitor and operate switches. At high intensity,
they look great in full daylight though they are not really needed.
Dimmed at night they are simply GREAT!
The key point is that the labeling on the switches makes each switch's
function and status clearly visible, day or night. When 'off', the word
'off' appears at the top of the switch. When 'on', only the function
label is visible on the switch. There's no real need to have a light
come on or off to indicate status. The status is visible and
'touchable'. The backlighting combined with the switch design and
switch labeling make it east to find, monitor and operate each switch.
And when a bulb unseats, I can easily see that one of my switches is
unlit and needs to be tweaked. But otherwise, the (mal)functioning of
the back light is meaningless.
So, to anyone using this good looking series of Honeywell rockers, I
suggest the following:
- Using the lamps only for backlighting the switch top. It must be
dimmable. Use LEDs with integral resistors.
- Get custom labeling for each switch top. For simple on/off function,
put 'off' at the top of each switch.
- Consider using the good looking AML41 series of indicators for
indicator lamps. They visually match the AML34 switch series, use the
same lamps, etc. The indicator tops are available in colors (green,
yellow, red). A two bulb model can be used for stuff like "Door L/R"
open indications. For 'Door' and 'Oil Pressure', I used red tops, left
the indicators undimmed and glued the LED bulbs in place. For 'Master
Warn', 'Low Voltage', and 'Boost Pump', I used yellow and green
indicator tops and made them dimmable since they may come on and stay on
at night.
Sources for these switches, indicators, LED bulbs, and labeling have all
been listed on this forum. I had to do some additional searching for
the switch models I needed for AP Nav Source switching and Flaps.
Having the Flap switch physically resemble all my other switches looks
good, but some will prefer a different type of switch. Works well for
me though.
Carlos, I know you weren't necessarily looking for that much input but
hope it's useful.
Bill "N215TG is halfway thru year 3" Watson
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:58 am Post subject: Illuminated Rocker switches - revisited |
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Bill
Thank you for all your comments, and information on your experience.
It’s always important to be aware of everyone’s “hands on” experience, which helps in making decisions. For sure I will take it in consideration.
Nevertheless, even being only a theoretical knowledge, I would like to know how could I achive my initial idea …
Carlos “thru year 2 building the -10” Trigo
--
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:55 pm Post subject: Illuminated Rocker switches - revisited |
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Theoretically, I think the only way to get the logic you describe is with 2 lamps. That is, use the AML24G series instead of the AML24F that I assume you are looking at now. The 'G' has two lamps.
Additionally you would need to two separate dimmers, one for each lamp circuit. I in fact have 3 dimmers on my panel - one for switches, one for indicators and one for the map light. You would in effect have the same configuration of dimmers. Interestingly enough, Perihelion Design sells the dimmers individually or as a discounted pack of 3 as I recall.
Bill
On 1/6/2014 3:57 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Bill
Thank you for all your comments, and information on your experience.
It’s always important to be aware of everyone’s “hands on” experience, which helps in making decisions. For sure I will take it in consideration.
Nevertheless, even being only a theoretical knowledge, I would like to know how could I achive my initial idea …
Carlos “thru year 2 building the -10” Trigo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: domingo, 5 de Janeiro de 2014 19:42
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Illuminated Rocker switches - revisited
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Watson
--> <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Carlos, based on my experience with these switches (350+ hours, <10% (at)night), I'd suggest taking a different approach to using the lights.
I know you aren't necessarily looking for a different approach so I'll first mention 2 problems with using the lights to indicated on/off
functionality:
1) The lights at full brightness are blinding at night. I'd suggest that they must be (adjustably) dimmed in all modes unless they are intended to signify a fault of some sort. I think that's what you are trying to accomplish in Version C. In that case, I'm not sure how you would accomplish full bright during daytime versus on and dimmed at night. Additionally, the dimmer would need to be setup so that at it's lowest setting, it would still be visible during day and night (difficult).
2) The switch lights are subject to a high frequency of failure. If the application was for gear retract and 'light-on' meant 'all green', I'm sure one would want to use a Honeywell series with an integrated lamp wired to indicate on/off status. What's the problem with this series?
Well, once you've switched to LEDs, you've eliminated incandescent bulb failures and that's good. None of my LED bulbs have failed. But the bulbs do not seat reliably in these switches, at least not reliably enough on our vibrating panels . If used for landing gear status - you'd end up aborting the occasional landing for lamp socket unseats.
They may be okay for indicating a landing light is on but my experience is that they will occasionally unseat. In my case, I use some un-switched indicators with the same lamp socket. For my low oil fault indicator, I glued the lamp in place to prevent unseats and avoid missing a fault indication.
That said, I'm very happy with my panel switches but I took a slightly different approach that aligns well with the switches' characteristics.
On my panel, the occasional bulb unseat is just a nuisance that is easily detected and corrected.
The lighting on these switches are just 'back lighting' on my panel. At night, their backlighting completely eliminates the need for post lights or map lights to find, monitor and operate switches. At high intensity, they look great in full daylight though they are not really needed.
Dimmed at night they are simply GREAT!
The key point is that the labeling on the switches makes each switch's function and status clearly visible, day or night. When 'off', the word 'off' appears at the top of the switch. When 'on', only the function label is visible on the switch. There's no real need to have a light come on or off to indicate status. The status is visible and 'touchable'. The backlighting combined with the switch design and switch labeling make it east to find, monitor and operate each switch.
And when a bulb unseats, I can easily see that one of my switches is unlit and needs to be tweaked. But otherwise, the (mal)functioning of the back light is meaningless.
So, to anyone using this good looking series of Honeywell rockers, I suggest the following:
- Using the lamps only for backlighting the switch top. It must be dimmable. Use LEDs with integral resistors.
- Get custom labeling for each switch top. For simple on/off function, put 'off' at the top of each switch.
- Consider using the good looking AML41 series of indicators for indicator lamps. They visually match the AML34 switch series, use the same lamps, etc. The indicator tops are available in colors (green, yellow, red). A two bulb model can be used for stuff like "Door L/R"
open indications. For 'Door' and 'Oil Pressure', I used red tops, left the indicators undimmed and glued the LED bulbs in place. For 'Master Warn', 'Low Voltage', and 'Boost Pump', I used yellow and green indicator tops and made them dimmable since they may come on and stay on at night.
Sources for these switches, indicators, LED bulbs, and labeling have all been listed on this forum. I had to do some additional searching for the switch models I needed for AP Nav Source switching and Flaps.
Having the Flap switch physically resemble all my other switches looks good, but some will prefer a different type of switch. Works well for me though.
Carlos, I know you weren't necessarily looking for that much input but hope it's useful.
Bill "N215TG is halfway thru year 3" Watson
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.comwww.mypilotstore.com
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http://forums.matronics.com
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01/05/14 [b]
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:51 am Post subject: Illuminated Rocker switches - revisited |
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I agree Bob McC.
Carlos, one might think that the AML24G series with two lamps would provide a path forward from what Bob described, that is, using 2 dimmers on 2 two different lamps on a single switch. At least I know I would think that the 24G would be a solution. However, I used a couple of 2 lamp indicators in this product family to try and indicate closure of the left and right doors and ran into a slight problem. A problem that I'm thinking you might run into with the 2 lamp switches as well.
I used the AML41 series of indicators that match up nicely with the AML24 series of switches. Just like in the switches, there are 1 lamp (AML41C) and 2 lamp (AML41D) versions. The 2 lamps are side by side and I figured they could be used with the proper indicator top label, to signify whether the Left and/or Right doors are closed properly on my RV10. (I also used such an indicator for dual 'low voltage' indications on my Z-14 dual battery/dual bus electrical system).
What I found is that the 2 lamp version easily facilitates such wiring, but one cannot visually distinguish between the left and right lights easily. When both are on, the indicator is just brighter. With either 1 lamp on, it's 'normal' brightness without any clear indication of which lamp is on.
This was only a minor problem however. I was able to modify the cap top with a plastic insert to block the lamp light from leaking over light up the entire indicator so that one could easily tell which lamp was lit; uncertainty changed to certainty.
My sense is that the 2 lamp AML24G series will work the same way. That is, it's not designed so that the 2 lamps are easily distinguishable from one another. Rather the design relies on the rocker position and the labeling on the switch top to make such distinctions. Furthermore, the fix I did on the indicator will not work on the switch.
So in the end, I think you will be exactly in the uncertain situation Bob McC describes below.
Bill "really missing the electrical and panel development tasks from the build" Watson
(I would add that Honeywell does have switch series where the lamp is designed to indicate function rather than just back lighting. From what I recall however, those switches are not backlit. There may be other lines that do both.)
On 1/6/2014 9:21 PM, Bob McCallum wrote:
[quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Carlos;
The simplest way to achieve what you’re asking would be to use version "C" with the diode in the lead coming from the panel light dimmer then add another dimmer between your B+ supply at the bottom of the switch and the switch also through a diode to prevent back feed between the two dimmers. This way your panel light dimmer will control the intensity of the identification illumination and the dimmer in the B+ supply will control the intensity of the “on” indication. These two uses of the lamp will however lead to uncertainty as to what the lamp indicates because there will no way to differentiate between background illumination and “on” indication. Depending on the relative dimmer settings the brightness might change between the two functions but either function could override the other in terms of brightness. This will function as you’ve asked, but not too useful in my humble opinion because of the uncertainty in what is being indicated.
Bob McC
[b]
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