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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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 Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:14 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have
totally convinced me that the way all new builders should
go is with a Mofset bit of kit. However my personal
solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In
1000hrs I have had one failure. That was inconveniently
1/3 way between Holland and Clacton, but there was enough
juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a bit
of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with
Rowland's spurned new Ducatti in my spares department
under pax seat, but am prepared to offer a modest price
for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk"
<nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and
with an increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur
withing the Rotax community, the standard fix seems to be
to simply replace like with like (at elevated Rotax
pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern
Japanese motorcycles used the same technology as that
found on the Rotax 91x series engines, permanent-magnet
generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for
precision and reliability, nearly all of these major
motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued
by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking
batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC
into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just
such a failure that "sparked" my interest 
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs
extremely hot and requires more cooling air than modern
styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled
regulators and the numerous web-based one-make discussion
groups were full of information and advice on the reasons
for failure, the benefits of the change and practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build
up a good understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what
was causing the problem and what the potential solution
might be. I compiled what I considered to be the best
informed snippets of information into the attached
document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of
an SCR Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet
generating system and the second half discussed the
relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the
after-market Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
|
|
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could
cause more serious problems than simple lack of charge,
but one benign failure in 12 years of flying is pretty
close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy
gliding anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I
understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign
being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why
does this happen mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow
high voltage DC or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other
clever stuff a real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost
between the Schicke and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the
wiring is only slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail
light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce
<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
> davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
> Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have
>totally convinced me
> that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset
>bit of kit.
> However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti
>at sale price off
> anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In
>1000hrs I have had
> one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between
>Holland and Clacton,
> but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all
>the way home with a
> bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly
>with Rowland's
> spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax
>seat, but am prepared
> to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
> Regards, David
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
> "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk"
><nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have followed this discussion with great interest and
>>with an
>> increasing sense of Déjà vu.
>> When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur
>>withing the Rotax
>> community, the standard fix seems to be to simply
>>replace like with like
>> (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next
>>unit fails.
>>
>> Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern
>>Japanese motorcycles
>> used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x
>>series engines,
>> permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR
>>rectifier/regulators. It may
>> come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for
>>precision and
>> reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle
>>manufactures have at some
>> time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based
>>rectifier/regulators
>> failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking
>>batteries and in
>> extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring
>>loom and blowing up
>> ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my
>>interest
>>
>> Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs
>>extremely hot and
>> requires more cooling air than modern styling and space
>>allows.
>> The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled
>>regulators and the
>> numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full
>>of information and
>> advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the
>>change and practical
>> advice on how to convert.
>>
>> It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build
>>up a good
>> understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing
>>the problem and
>> what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I
>>considered to be
>> the best informed snippets of information into the
>>attached document.
>> The first half gives an overview of a typical design of
>>an SCR
>> Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet
>>generating system and the
>> second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus
>>MOSFET.
>>
>> It would be interesting to know which technology the the
>>after-market
>> Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
>>
>> Nigel
>>
>
============
============
============
============
>
>
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:26 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
|
|
David, My feeling is that the Ducati RR is under-designed for its task and it is really a matter of where you site it under the cowl, that decides it's fate. By good planning or just good luck, yours seems to cool well and thus survives. If the Silent Hektik website is to be believed (see below), the Ducati RR is being over-driven.
Nigel
The Ducati controller
The original controller supplied by Ducati Energia is equipped with semiconductors , which allow a brief loading of 25A at 14V .
Continuous loading of the semiconductor is limited under standard conditions at 25 ° C to around 17A. but since the alternator can deliver up to 20A, the original controller is overloaded even under optimal conditions. This results in frequent failures. Normal 0 <![endif]-->
On 21/01/2014 22:15, David Joyce wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy gliding anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk> (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk) wrote:
| Quote: | Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me
that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had
one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton,
but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a
bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared
to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some
time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in
extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up
ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and
advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the
second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
|
============
============
============
============
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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max8992
Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:01 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
|
|
Nigel,
I wasn’t able to find an English version of the S-H website, is there any and where your comments on Ducati’s comes from?
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk
Envoyé : mercredi 22 janvier 2014 11:26
À : europa-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective
David, My feeling is that the Ducati RR is under-designed for its task and it is really a matter of where you site it under the cowl, that decides it's fate. By good planning or just good luck, yours seems to cool well and thus survives. If the Silent Hektik website is to be believed (see below), the Ducati RR is being over-driven.
Nigel
The Ducati controller
The original controller supplied by Ducati Energia is equipped with semiconductors , which allow a brief loading of 25A at 14V .
Continuous loading of the semiconductor is limited under standard conditions at 25 ° C to around 17A. but since the alternator can deliver up to 20A, the original controller is overloaded even under optimal conditions. This results in frequent failures.
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
On 21/01/2014 22:15, David Joyce wrote:
| Quote: |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy gliding anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk> (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk) wrote: <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me
that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had
one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton,
but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a
bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared
to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some
time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in
extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up
ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and
advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the
second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
============
============
============
============ <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]> |
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH |
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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:11 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
|
|
Max,
There is no English version of the Silent Hektic website. The information I quoted came from data I downloaded, translated and archived some time ago. I've just been back onto their site and see that they have updated it with many new products (lots more RRs, a tempting fuel injection conversion for the 912 and a completely new three-phase generator set) but the snippet of information I quoted is now missing.
If you want a copy of my archived copy, let me know off-list and I'll forward it.
Nigel
On 22/01/2014 13:00, Max Cointe (Free) wrote:
[quote] 1024x768 <![endif]--> Clean 21 false false false FR X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Tableau Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Nigel,
I wasn’t able to find an English version of the S-H website, is there any and where your comments on Ducati’s comes from?
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] De la part de nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)
Envoyé : mercredi 22 janvier 2014 11:26
À : europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Objet : Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective
David, My feeling is that the Ducati RR is under-designed for its task and it is really a matter of where you site it under the cowl, that decides it's fate. By good planning or just good luck, yours seems to cool well and thus survives. If the Silent Hektik website is to be believed (see below), the Ducati RR is being over-driven.
Nigel
The Ducati controller
The original controller supplied by Ducati Energia is equipped with semiconductors , which allow a brief loading of 25A at 14V .
Continuous loading of the semiconductor is limited under standard conditions at 25 ° C to around 17A. but since the alternator can deliver up to 20A, the original controller is overloaded even under optimal conditions. This results in frequent failures.
On 21/01/2014 22:15, David Joyce wrote:
| Quote: |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy gliding anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk> (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk) wrote:
Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me
that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had
one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton,
but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a
bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared
to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some
time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in
extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up
ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and
advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the
second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
============
============
============
============
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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