Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Flap Closeout Closeout

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Flap Closeout Closeout

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Gidday,

Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. 

There must be an easier way, but I don’t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? 

Tony R.

Sydney Aussie.

photo.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

106.63 KB

Viewed:

5489 Time(s)

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:07 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Hi Tony



 From past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I 

would guess it is not suitable.  Tends to have quite large voids left in 

it after it has gone off.  It also tends to keep expanding so very 

difficult to judge how much to put in.



Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have 

been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.



Pete

Classic 912 #109



On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Gidday,

 Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.

 There must be an easier way, but I don’t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips??

 Tony R.

 Sydney Aussie.

jimca(at)ozemail.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Tony, Jim here.

I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you anticipate.

Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a suitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweigh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle.

Jim McAvoy

Perth

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

 Hi Tony

 From past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable.  Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off.  It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in.

 Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.

 Pete

 Classic 912 #109

> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote:

> Gidday,

> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.

> There must be an easier way, but I donâ€™t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips??

> Tony R.

> Sydney Aussie.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:02 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Tony

that's the way I would do it. Trouble with spray can Urethane is it never really stabilises.

Graham

        From: Jim McAvoy <jimca(at)ozemail.com.au>

 To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 10:55

 Subject: Re: Flap Closeout Closeout

--> Europa-List  message posted by: Jim McAvoy <jimca(at)ozemail.com.au (jimca(at)ozemail.com.au)>

Tony, Jim here.

I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you anticipate.

Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a suitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweigh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle.

Jim McAvoy

Perth

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)>

 Hi Tony

 From past experience of  expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable.  Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off.  It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in.

 Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.

 Pete

 Classic 912 #109

> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote:

> Gidday,

> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone  used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.

> There must be an easier way, but I donâ€™t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips??

> Tony R.

> Sydney Aussie.

 http://www.mat;             ronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib===============

 [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Flap Closeout Closeout

Hi Tony



It's hard to tell from your picture, but it looks like you have "tripple" expanding foam.



I have fooled a bit, especially with Foam Radio Controlled models and low expanding foam is the secret. Once cured it trims up very nice with a razor blade or knife.



I used the low expanding foam to support my fuel tank after the cockpit module was installed.

See "Say NO to crack":

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86925



Remember that the flap cross tube articulates as the flap is raised and lowered, in other words the angle it meets up with the flap drive pin changes. You need to take this into account. I have a drawing in my build manual, I think it came about from England, perhaps I downloaded from the Europa club, but it called for building up the OD of the outboard flap tube, perhaps it was somewhere between 1/8" and 1/4" (I'm not exactly sure), then the tapered guide fit reasonably close to that built up OD that would allow you to get the pin engaged, then when you sent it home (pushed the flap all the way on the pin) the tapered guide went away so you now have clearance between the tapered guide and the now normal OD flap drive cross tube.



So many words, my thoughts are now probably clear as mud!:

See Useful Mod 10303:

http://www.theeuropaclub.org/for-builders/europa-mods-sbs/laa-all-of-type/



I don't know if I'm going to install a ramp/guide or close the flaps out. If I do I have some of the shaped bluefoam that I used to make the close out. Off the cuff perhaps shape some blue foam somewhat close to the shape you want and fill voids with expanding foam? It will not cure unless a little moisture can get as it. If you shoot lets say under a close fitting block, may take a "LONG" time to cure and would be expanding and oozing half of forever. Thus fool on a test making some holes in the blue foam. You could light mist a side of the foam too if you are in a dry area. Or make a outboard rib out of Balsa and light cover with thin glass, drill a small water drain out on bottom?



Ron Parigoris

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:29 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Hi Graham,Not stabilising doesn’t sound good. Seems like using good old blue foam might be the better way to go, and bog it in with micro. It is a frustration that you can’t poor in a liquid that sets. I could always use plaster 

Tony R.

On 19 Feb 2014, at 10:01 pm, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Tony

that's the way I would do it. Trouble with spray can Urethane is it never really stabilises.

Graham

From: Jim McAvoy <jimca(at)ozemail.com.au (jimca(at)ozemail.com.au)>

To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)> 

Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 10:55

Subject: Re: Flap Closeout Closeout

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim McAvoy <jimca(at)ozemail.com.au (jimca(at)ozemail.com.au)>

Tony, Jim here.

I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you anticipate.

Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a suitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweigh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle.

Jim McAvoy

Perth

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)>

 Hi Tony

 From past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable.  Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off.  It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in.

 Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.

 Pete

 Classic 912 #109

> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote:

> Gidday,

> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.

> There must be an easier way, but I don’t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips??

> Tony R.

> Sydney Aussie.

 http://www.mat;             ronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib===============

 	  Quote: 	

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 [quote][b]

jimca(at)ozemail.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:33 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Tony

Forgot to mention, I also turned up some extended flap drive pointy pins. They extend about 2 inches longer than the original ones so you can locate them into the cross tube before pushing the wings close to the fuse, works fine.

Jim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 19 Feb 2014, at 5:27 pm, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Gidday,

 Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. 

 There must be an easier way, but I donâ€™t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? 

 Tony R.

 Sydney Aussie.

 

 <photo.JPG>

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:27 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Blu foam and micro is the way to go! Use plenty of microballoons so stiff micro and be careful you don't get an exotherm

which you will if there's a big volume of micro.

Graham

        From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 11:28

 Subject: Re: Flap Closeout Closeout

Hi Graham,Not stabilising doesnâ€™t sound good. Seems like using good old blue foam might be the better way to go, and bog it in with micro. It is a frustration that you canâ€™t poor in a liquid that sets. I could always use plaster 

Tony R.

On 19 Feb 2014, at 10:01 pm, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

[quote]Tony

that's the way I would do it. Trouble with spray can Urethane is it never really stabilises.

Graham

From: Jim McAvoy <jimca(at)ozemail.com.au (jimca(at)ozemail.com.au)>

To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)> 

Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 10:55

Subject: Re: Flap Closeout Closeout

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim McAvoy <jimca(at)ozemail.com.au (jimca(at)ozemail.com.au)>

Tony, Jim here.

I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you anticipate.

Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a suitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto  the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweigh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle.

Jim McAvoy

Perth

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)>

 Hi Tony

 From past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable.  Tends to have quite large voids left  in it after it has gone off.  It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in.

 Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.

 Pete

 Classic 912 #109

> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote:

> Gidday,

> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing  over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.

> There must be an easier way, but I donâ€™t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips??

> Tony R.

> Sydney Aussie.

 http://www.mat;             ronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib===============

 	  Quote: 	

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matroniclow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.=   --> [b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gidday,Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them,


	


Tony...yes, I have. I tried and tested many different kinds. I got my best results from "non-expanding" foam...I also found a 3 oz. paper cup to be an easy way to form a tapered guide for the flap pin into the flap cross tube...Fred

DSCN1014.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

54.44 KB

Viewed:

5470 Time(s)

DSCN6927.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

30.52 KB

Viewed:

5470 Time(s)

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:16 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Hi! All,

I just noticed some chat about the Europa Flap Drive slot needing covering

and Flaps Inboard close outs . But I missed the initial reason for the

commencement of the thread. My contribution is to suggest a visit to Bob

Harrison's Europa G-PTAG at:-

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~jcliff/BobH/BobH.htm   (with much thanks to

John Cliff of Waitrose for allowing it to remain in place) where my scheme

can be seen .

It is however a somewhat sobering thought that it was mostly taken from the

Jabiru 3300 power pack days!!

I recall that the use of blue foam was employed and the tapered holes for

receiving the flap drive shaft during one man rigging was moulded round the

"nylon purple rail chair under bolt head tapered packers" off a railway

track !!!!  ( No it wasn't me that made the train crash either !) but

apologies for the "Floor brush for the seeping of" description! 



Regards 

To all Bob Harrison G-PTAG

--

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:21 am Post subject: Flap Closeout Closeout

Fred, 

Neat and helpful. Assuming all cups are not created equal, where'd you get

the cup from?  



Tony,

I used expanding foam on my temporary seat modification Jig, that created a

shape for the carbon-fiber plies to form on. It was of the type that needs

two parts mixed together, and would expand like crazy once mixed. Unlike

from the can, the mix is fairly homogeneous as far as not leaving air voids.

I did notice that some of the cured 'bubbles' were larger in some areas than

others though. There is a lot of power there. As long as the exit hole is

properly sized to let out the pressure during the expanding process, it

seemed to do pretty well in fitting the (closed) form that I created for it

to expand to. It's probably a good idea to let it sit for a few days to be

sure the chemical reaction is halted. 



Greg



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum