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Fat wires and plumber's solder

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

Bob,



I am in the process of integrating a power input module (Cole Hersee 11041)

see http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/248/11041/ and am wondering

about the best method for connecting a heavy wire to it.  The power port is

sized for "up to" 0 AWG wire but the biggest I want to connect to it is 4 or

maybe 2 AWG.  The 11041 uses a brass solder socket and is way too big for 2

awg wire.  What is the best way to fill up excess space in the socket?  I

don't want to simply fill it with solder.  Maybe some short wire segments

same length as the depth of the socket?



The second question comes to solder. Normally we don't solder much on

aircraft (at least I haven't) and all of my solder rolls at work are very

small diameter for electronics with flux inside.  If I was to use this

solder, I would probably use a ton to tin and drown the heavy wire into the

brass cup.  So I had a look at some plumbing solder that I had left over

from a plumbing project.  I recall that plumbing solder is not to be used

for electrical connections (corrosive?) but it is nice and thick (maybe

3/16ths) and the label says "LEAD FREE" and "SILVER".  I can understand that

for potable water systems, lead free is a good idea but is it really lead

free and is it really silver solder?  Most importantly, can this be used for

a beefy electrical solder job?



It might be a good time to have a discussion on plumbing solder and why it

should or should not be used for electrical stuff.



Thanks



Bevan

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

On 2/14/2014 5:48 PM, B Tomm wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



   

 Bob,



 I am in the process of integrating a power input module (Cole Hersee 11041)

 see http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/248/11041/ and am wondering

 about the best method for connecting a heavy wire to it.  The power port is

 sized for "up to" 0 AWG wire but the biggest I want to connect to it is 4 or

 maybe 2 AWG.  The 11041 uses a brass solder socket and is way too big for 2

 awg wire.  What is the best way to fill up excess space in the socket?  I

 don't want to simply fill it with solder.  Maybe some short wire segments

 same length as the depth of the socket?



 The second question comes to solder. Normally we don't solder much on

 aircraft (at least I haven't) and all of my solder rolls at work are very

 small diameter for electronics with flux inside.  If I was to use this

 solder, I would probably use a ton to tin and drown the heavy wire into the

 brass cup.  So I had a look at some plumbing solder that I had left over

 from a plumbing project.  I recall that plumbing solder is not to be used

 for electrical connections (corrosive?) but it is nice and thick (maybe

 3/16ths) and the label says "LEAD FREE" and "SILVER".  I can understand that

 for potable water systems, lead free is a good idea but is it really lead

 free and is it really silver solder?  Most importantly, can this be used for

 a beefy electrical solder job?



 It might be a good time to have a discussion on plumbing solder and why it

 should or should not be used for electrical stuff.



 Thanks



 Bevan



Before you use it, you might want to price what it will cost you to 
	


replace it.  Real silver solder does have a significant percentage of 

silver in it.



Bob has a 'comic book' showing how to fill out the space in the crimp 

ring with short lengths of copper wire. Basically, cut short (~1/2") 

pieces of #12 or #14 solid wire (cut it from household 'romex' wiring), 

sharpen one end, & drive it into the strands of your cable in the open 

end of the connector until it's filled tight with copper. Then solder.



It's usually plumbing flux that's corrosive, not the solder itself, 

unless you have some with flux made into the solder (unlikely with 

plumbing solder). However, one issue besides the price of silver solder 

is that it usually requires a higher temperature, so you're more likely 

to melt your insulation.



Charlie

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

My experience with         lead/tin plumbing solder is that it is frequently available in         "acid core" configuration in 1 and 5 lb. spools.  The lead free         plumbing solder, which is typically solid wire, is a 95% tin/ 5%         antimony alloy.  It does have a higher melting point than the         typical lead/ tin alloys, with or without an "acid core".  How         it's melting point compares with silver bearing solder, I don't         know.  I don't know what it's electrical properties are either.

               	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 02/14/2014 07:32 PM, Charlie England wrote:

     

     [quote]-->       AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England       <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)       

       

       On 2/14/2014 5:48 PM, B Tomm wrote:       

        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted         by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)         

         

           Bob,         

         

         I am in the process of integrating a power input module (Cole         Hersee 11041)         

         see http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/248/11041/ and am         wondering         

         about the best method for connecting a heavy wire to it.  The         power port is         

         sized for "up to" 0 AWG wire but the biggest I want to connect         to it is 4 or         

         maybe 2 AWG.  The 11041 uses a brass solder socket and is way         too big for 2         

         awg wire.  What is the best way to fill up excess space in the         socket?  I         

         don't want to simply fill it with solder.  Maybe some short wire         segments         

         same length as the depth of the socket?         

         

         The second question comes to solder. Normally we don't solder         much on         

         aircraft (at least I haven't) and all of my solder rolls at work         are very         

         small diameter for electronics with flux inside.  If I was to         use this         

         solder, I would probably use a ton to tin and drown the heavy         wire into the         

         brass cup.  So I had a look at some plumbing solder that I had         left over         

         from a plumbing project.  I recall that plumbing solder is not         to be used         

         for electrical connections (corrosive?) but it is nice and thick         (maybe         

         3/16ths) and the label says "LEAD FREE" and "SILVER".  I can         understand that         

         for potable water systems, lead free is a good idea but is it         really lead         

         free and is it really silver solder?  Most importantly, can this         be used for         

         a beefy electrical solder job?         

         

         It might be a good time to have a discussion on plumbing solder         and why it         

         should or should not be used for electrical stuff.         

         

         Thanks         

         

         Bevan         

         

       	
       Before you use it, you might want to price what it will cost you       to replace it.  Real silver solder does have a significant       percentage of silver in it.       

       

       Bob has a 'comic book' showing how to fill out the space in the       crimp ring with short lengths of copper wire. Basically, cut short       (~1/2") pieces of #12 or #14 solid wire (cut it from household       'romex' wiring), sharpen one end, & drive it into the strands       of your cable in the open end of the connector until it's filled       tight with copper. Then solder.       

       

       It's usually plumbing flux that's corrosive, not the solder       itself, unless you have some with flux made into the solder       (unlikely with plumbing solder). However, one issue besides the       price of silver solder is that it usually requires a higher       temperature, so you're more likely to melt your insulation.       

       

       Charlie       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

     [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:57 am Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

At 05:48 PM 2/14/2014, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>



  

 Bob,



 I am in the process of integrating a power input module (Cole Hersee 11041)

 see  http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/248/11041/ and am wondering

 about the best method for connecting a heavy wire to it.  	


   See  http://tinyurl.com/m85ohwx



  	  Quote: 	
		  It might be a good time to have a discussion on plumbing solder and why it

 should or should not be used for electrical stuff. 	


   "Plumbing" solder is not a very definitive

   term. Solders come in all sorts of alloys

   including the modern lead-free versions. They

   each have a unique set of behaviors for joining

   parts.



   The best-we-know-how-to-do solders are 63/37

   Tin-Lead alloys popular with the electronics

   industry among others.



   63/37 is, perhaps not the optimum structural

   alloy but it has some over-riding properties

   that make it the joining material of choice

   for the things we do.



   Lowest melting point of all tin-lead ratios

   known as 'eutectic'. This property promotes

   joining with the least possible heat stress

   on parts and their surrounding insulators.



   Nearly zero plastic range . . . it moves

   quickly between solid and liquid phases

   during temperature excursions. Hence, you

   have to work at it to get a 'cold' solder

   joint. See Chapter 8 of The 'Connection.



   When the occasional task calls for soldering

   fat wires to equally fat terminals, I pull off

   6 feet or so of my fine-wire, 63/37 and

   fold it into a 6-8 strand, twisted bundle.

   This offers a nice does of flux into the

   joint while increasing the delivery rate

   of solder into the melt.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:02 am Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

  Nearly zero plastic range . . . it moves

   quickly between solid and liquid phases

   during temperature excursions. Hence, you

   have to work at it to get a 'cold' solder

   joint. See Chapter 8 of The 'Connection.

   

      CORRECTION: CHAPTER 9

 

   Bob . . .     [quote][b]

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:46 am Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

Thanks Bob and all,

  

 I was concerned that 63/37 may add too much flux causing  undesirable effects.  Twisting is together is an excellent  idea.

  

 Thanks

  

 Bevan



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert  L. Nuckolls, III

Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 5:56  AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:  Fat wires and plumber's solder

 

At 05:48 PM 2/14/2014, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message    posted by: "B Tomm"    <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>



 

Bob,



I am in the process    of integrating a power input module (Cole Hersee 11041)

see http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/248/11041/ and am    wondering

about the best method for connecting a heavy wire to it.   	


  See http://tinyurl.com/m85ohwx



  	  Quote: 	
		  It might be a good time to have a    discussion on plumbing solder and why it

should or should not be used for    electrical stuff. 	


  "Plumbing" solder is not a very  definitive

  term. Solders come in all sorts of alloys

   including the modern lead-free versions. They

  each have a unique set  of behaviors for joining

  parts.



  The  best-we-know-how-to-do solders are 63/37

  Tin-Lead alloys popular with  the electronics

  industry among others.



  63/37 is, perhaps  not the optimum structural

  alloy but it has some over-riding  properties

  that make it the joining material of choice

  for  the things we do.



  Lowest melting point of all tin-lead  ratios

  known as 'eutectic'. This property promotes

   joining with the least possible heat stress

  on parts and their  surrounding insulators.



  Nearly zero plastic range . . . it  moves

  quickly between solid and liquid phases

  during  temperature excursions. Hence, you

  have to work at it to get a  'cold' solder

  joint. See Chapter 8 of The 'Connection.



   When the occasional task calls for soldering

  fat wires to equally fat  terminals, I pull off

  6 feet or so of my fine-wire, 63/37  and

  fold it into a 6-8 strand, twisted bundle.

  This offers a  nice does of flux into the

  joint while increasing the delivery  rate

  of solder into the melt.



 

  Bob . . . [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:27 am Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

At 10:46 AM 2/15/2014, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks Bob and all,

  

 I was concerned that 63/37 may add too much flux causing undesirable effects.  Twisting is together is an excellent idea.

  

 Thanks

  

 Bevan 	


   The 'service life' of flux in electronic

   solder is measured in seconds. The active

   features in the chemistry evaporate pretty

   quickly as they dissolve the products of

   corrosion from surfaces to be joined. The

   residuals do not add to the appearance

   of the finished joint but it'a all on

   the surface. It wipes off with a rag wetted

   with lacquer thinner or acetone. I keep

   cans of "carburetor cleaner" around for

   spray de-greasing and de-fluxing of work

   product.



   But there's no risk of deleterious effects

   for having left it in place . . .



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

gerry.vandyk(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:17 am Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

However the acid core of structural solder would have a lasting  corrosive effect on electronics.  By all means be sure you use electrical  solder.

  

 The  specific alloy percentages have little bearing on weather it's electronic  or structural solder, the application determines what flux you need to  use.

  

 Gerry

 [quote]   

   --

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

The 'service life' of flux in electronic

  solder is  measured in seconds. The active

  features in the chemistry evaporate  pretty

  quickly as they dissolve the products of

  corrosion  from surfaces to be joined. The

  residuals do not add to the  appearance

  of the finished joint but it'a all on

  the  surface. It wipes off with a rag wetted

  with lacquer thinner or  acetone. I keep

  cans of "carburetor cleaner" around for

   spray de-greasing and de-fluxing of work

  product.



  But  there's no risk of deleterious effects

  for having left it in place . .  ..



  

  	  Quote: 	
		     Question:  If one were to use plumbers    solder and plumbers flux on a joint and thouroughly cleaned it with acetone or    lacquor thinner, would this be acceptable?  I am just not aware of the    chemistry involved, or if anyone has done any experimentation with this    process.

    

   Roger

	
    	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

 				This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. 			 		 	      [quote][b]

rmkeith(at)gwi.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

One thing to remember with the 95-5 Tin / Antimony Solder is that it does not fill gaps well.  It was common practice when using 95/5 to flood the joint with 50/50 solder after first adding the 95/5.  Another point is that real "Silver Solder"  AKA "Silver Braze" has 35 of 45 % silver with the remainder being bronze and melts typically around 1100 degrees f or more.  Plumbers "silver solder" is basically a 95/5 solder with a little silver so it will fill gaps better and melts around 450 f. I have used rosin core solder to tin a joint then add the plumbers silver solder to complete the connection.  

   

Russ  

       [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

 	  Quote: 	
		  

   Question:  If one were to use plumbers solder and plumbers flux on a joint and thouroughly cleaned it with acetone or lacquor thinner, would this be acceptable?  I am just not aware of the chemistry involved, or if anyone has done any experimentation with this process. 	
 

   My sense is that the chemistry that promotes

   corrosion in the "perfect joint" is all on

   the outside and easily neutralized and/or

   cleaned. The biggest risk to joint longevity

   probably has more to do with alloy than with

   removal of residual flux.



  	  Quote: 	
		     

  Roger

 

  



     



 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. 



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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jrevens

Joined: 21 Nov 2013
Posts: 34
Location: Arvada, CO

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: Fat wires and plumber's solder

I believe that one thing to keep in mind is that if the solder you’re using is truly 95-5 alloy, it is not advisable to use it with brass. There is a chemical reaction in the presence of moisture that causes long-term porosity & pitting of the joint. I’m not sure, but that may be due to the antimony reacting with something in the brass.   

   

How about the “high-tech” silver-bearing electrical solder, available from Radio Shack? I’ve been using it for a few years, believing it to be superior to the 60-40 standard. I’m sure many of us have seen older radios or other electronic equipment that suffered multiple deteriorated solder joints. I had a nice S.A.E. amp at one time that I had to re-solder just about all of the capacitor leads after it started having “issues”. I’m not sure why that happened, and it probably had more to do with the soldering technique used in manufacture rather than the solder itself. That probably doesn’t have much to do with the current discussion, but I wonder if the “high-tech” stuff might ultimately be more stable.  

   

[b] [/b][b]John[/b][b]    [/b]  

   

[b]            [/b]                      

   

   

   

   

      

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
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