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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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I don't vote for a TC or T&B as back-up, I vote for an attitude
indicator.
I have good sound reasons to say so and it is not based
on any pilot should be able to fly partial panel. It comes
from many years of giving instruction.
As Bob and others pointed out a T&B or TC does not tell
if the wings are level. I understand Bob's statement if you
are not yawing you are no turning, BUT you are also not
necessarily wings level.
Also on the other hand you can be wings level and be
yawing (turning). Example, a skidding turn w/ rudder and
opposite aileron. Wings level but yawing. The point is the
T&B and TC do not tell you if the wings are level.
Given the choice I would want a pictorial ATTITUDE
indication, with a direct indication of wing (roll) and
pitch, even though I know I can fly a T&B.
With a T&B as long as I keep it upright I am good, but
once you've lost it you're in a pretty bad situation and
may not survive. Statistics bare this out. I realize some
auto pilots are Yaw based but than they do a better
job keeping it upright than most pilots. I doubt many
yaw only autopilots can recover from an unusual
attitude.
Flying with only a T&B you have no direct indication of
the wings being level. With an attitude indicator you do,
which is better, obviously. I don't think I am going to
get an argument here.
However to recover from unusual attitude with just
altimeter, airspeed, T&B and slip skid ball (needle ball and
airspeed) is a real talent, and most pilots will NOT survive
if faced with this. This is fact based on studies. Many
vacume failures in IMC, leaving just the T&B has resulted
in the loss of aircraft and crew. What makes us think we
can survive, for real, under high stress actual IMC?
Who last practiced or last attempted an unusual attitude
recovery under the hood or IMC with just Needle Ball &
airspeed?
The best and only way to recover from a unusual nose
low dive or graveyard spiral is level the wings first before
applying back pressure. What is the best way to know
if the wings are level? An ATTITUDE indicator. A real
time pictorial depiction of aircraft roll and pitch.
So lets say IMC diving with only a T&B you get it to stop
yawing, where are the wings? How do you level the wings?
If in a hot homebuilt you are way past Vne and dead.
T&B and TC are dampened. Too much dampening they
are useless for recovery because of the lag. If they don't
have enough damping they are useless because they
are flopping around with any yaw or turbulence.
I appreciate Bob's old school attitude, but I have been
teaching in aviation for over 20 years and I know the
skills of mere mortals, typical pilots. They respond and
consistently perform better with an attitude display not
a yaw display. Many old time pilots have died trying
to fly after the Vac pump failed. The history of real
partial plane with real pilots in real IMC is poor.
I appreciates Bob's pride in being able to fly needle ball
and airspeed. I can do it too. However if you have not
done it, for real in turbulence or IMC in a small home
built with natural roll stability, sensitive control and a
low drag configuration that builds speed very fast when
pointed down hill, I think we would all want a back-up
ATTITUDE indicator.
Yaw is great but a picture of you wings being level is
more important or priceless as they commercial says.
With the advent of cheap battery powered ATTITUDE
indicators I think the day of T&B or TC only back up
are gone.
Now if you want to practice "partial panel" I suggest
you find a good safety pilot who knows their job, safety
and looking for traffic. Get a Francis IFR hood,
http://www.ifrhood.com/ ,
not an el-cheepo foggles or plastic visor. Use some
tape and cardboard paper and blank out areas of the
canopy you might cheat, peripheral or straight ahead,
but don't block the safety pilots view.
Best practice is at night over sparsely populated area.
Also a good idea is get ATC flight following for your
practice. Now do partial panel unusual attitude recovery.
Look down at the floor and let the safety pilot roll the
pitch the plane, who than will give it back to you as you
look up to the panel. If you can recover consistently
than good. Most will not with just a T&B. With an
attitude indicator everyone will recover with a little
practice. With just a T&B your chance of getting it
level is limited. Never let the speed get to Vne. The
safety pilot should take over early. There is no need
to push it. Of course the safety pilot must have enough
currency in type and visual clues to recover safely.
I am not talking about training that is so over the top
that no one can survive. I am talking about real training
that is realistic that gives you a real indication of your
ability to fly and recover IMC partial panel.
A Cessna you can almost just let go and it will almost
recover. A hot home built forget it; they have the stability
of a jet fighter. There was a time when more military
fighters where lost to IFR accidents than lost due to
combat.
That is my point. Don't cheat forget the T&B and TC if
you really want a back up. It's 2006; there are many
backup attitude indicators available for less than $1000.
They are all electric but so is a T&B or TC.
These are my opinions after 1000 hours teaching GA
and airline pilots in planes and simulators. I am NOT
saying you CAN'T fly with just a T&B but that is ONLY
and indirect indication of wing level. I don't think I will
get an argument that an ACTUAL indication of WING
level is better than an old fashion yaw indicator. I do
think it still has a place in the panel, but be realistic
in you ability to save the say with JUST a T&B.
Cheers George M. RV-4/RV-7 ATP, CFI-CFII-MEI
---------------------------------
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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Good Morning George,
You wrote:
"The best and only way to recover from a unusual nose
low dive or graveyard spiral is level the wings first before
applying back pressure. What is the best way to know
if the wings are level? An ATTITUDE indicator. A real
time pictorial depiction of aircraft roll and pitch."
JFK Jr and Carnahan both had operative Attitude Indicators available.
They are both dead.
'Lectric Bobs Autopilot would have saved their lives.
Skill with either an attitude indicator, a T&B or a TC would also have saved
their lives.
My reasons for preferring the T&B over the TC have to do with how the mind
works. My reason for having the T&Bs in my panel has to do with cost,
reliability and availability.
To me, that means training to use a T&B combined with reasonable reliability
for the instrument used.
I totally disagree with your premise that an attitude indicator is "best" or
"better".
Best or Better is dependent on the training of the user, the reliability of
the instrument and the modes of failure.
When automatic flight becomes economically feasible and suitably reliable,
we will be able to have airplanes that anyone can fly with little or no
training.
I have no objection to that goal, but, in the meantime, I want what I can
afford.
The Air Bus is a step in the direction of machine controlled flight. As a
trained pilot, I am not sure I like that trend, but we have accepted a similar
scene with automobiles and all manner of other conveniences in our lives.
I agree that we will have to agree to disagree ---- Totally!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 6/21/2006 11:19:45 A.M. Central Standard Time,
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com writes:
I don't vote for a TC or T&B as back-up, I vote for an attitude
indicator.
I have good sound reasons to say so and it is not based
on any pilot should be able to fly partial panel. It comes
from many years of giving instruction.
As Bob and others pointed out a T&B or TC does not tell
if the wings are level. I understand Bob's statement if you
are not yawing you are no turning, BUT you are also not
necessarily wings level.
Also on the other hand you can be wings level and be
yawing (turning). Example, a skidding turn w/ rudder and
opposite aileron. Wings level but yawing. The point is the
T&B and TC do not tell you if the wings are level.
Given the choice I would want a pictorial ATTITUDE
indication, with a direct indication of wing (roll) and
pitch, even though I know I can fly a T&B.
With a T&B as long as I keep it upright I am good, but
once you've lost it you're in a pretty bad situation and
may not survive. Statistics bare this out. I realize some
auto pilots are Yaw based but than they do a better
job keeping it upright than most pilots. I doubt many
yaw only autopilots can recover from an unusual
attitude.
Flying with only a T&B you have no direct indication of
the wings being level. With an attitude indicator you do,
which is better, obviously. I don't think I am going to
get an argument here.
However to recover from unusual attitude with just
altimeter, airspeed, T&B and slip skid ball (needle ball and
airspeed) is a real talent, and most pilots will NOT survive
if faced with this. This is fact based on studies. Many
vacume failures in IMC, leaving just the T&B has resulted
in the loss of aircraft and crew. What makes us think we
can survive, for real, under high stress actual IMC?
Who last practiced or last attempted an unusual attitude
recovery under the hood or IMC with just Needle Ball &
airspeed?
The best and only way to recover from a unusual nose
low dive or graveyard spiral is level the wings first before
applying back pressure. What is the best way to know
if the wings are level? An ATTITUDE indicator. A real
time pictorial depiction of aircraft roll and pitch.
So lets say IMC diving with only a T&B you get it to stop
yawing, where are the wings? How do you level the wings?
If in a hot homebuilt you are way past Vne and dead.
T&B and TC are dampened. Too much dampening they
are useless for recovery because of the lag. If they don't
have enough damping they are useless because they
are flopping around with any yaw or turbulence.
I appreciate Bob's old school attitude, but I have been
teaching in aviation for over 20 years and I know the
skills of mere mortals, typical pilots. They respond and
consistently perform better with an attitude display not
a yaw display. Many old time pilots have died trying
to fly after the Vac pump failed. The history of real
partial plane with real pilots in real IMC is poor.
I appreciates Bob's pride in being able to fly needle ball
and airspeed. I can do it too. However if you have not
done it, for real in turbulence or IMC in a small home
built with natural roll stability, sensitive control and a
low drag configuration that builds speed very fast when
pointed down hill, I think we would all want a back-up
ATTITUDE indicator.
Yaw is great but a picture of you wings being level is
more important or priceless as they commercial says.
With the advent of cheap battery powered ATTITUDE
indicators I think the day of T&B or TC only back up
are gone.
Now if you want to practice "partial panel" I suggest
you find a good safety pilot who knows their job, safety
and looking for traffic. Get a Francis IFR hood,
_http://www.ifrhood.com/_ (http://www.ifrhood.com/) ,
not an el-cheepo foggles or plastic visor. Use some
tape and cardboard paper and blank out areas of the
canopy you might cheat, peripheral or straight ahead,
but don't block the safety pilots view.
Best practice is at night over sparsely populated area.
Also a good idea is get ATC flight following for your
practice. Now do partial panel unusual attitude recovery.
Look down at the floor and let the safety pilot roll the
pitch the plane, who than will give it back to you as you
look up to the panel. If you can recover consistently
than good. Most will not with just a T&B. With an
attitude indicator everyone will recover with a little
practice. With just a T&B your chance of getting it
level is limited. Never let the speed get to Vne. The
safety pilot should take over early. There is no need
to push it. Of course the safety pilot must have enough
currency in type and visual clues to recover safely.
I am not talking about training that is so over the top
that no one can survive. I am talking about real training
that is realistic that gives you a real indication of your
ability to fly and recover IMC partial panel.
A Cessna you can almost just let go and it will almost
recover. A hot home built forget it; they have the stability
of a jet fighter. There was a time when more military
fighters where lost to IFR accidents than lost due to
combat.
That is my point. Don't cheat forget the T&B and TC if
you really want a back up. It's 2006; there are many
backup attitude indicators available for less than $1000.
They are all electric but so is a T&B or TC.
These are my opinions after 1000 hours teaching GA
and airline pilots in planes and simulators. I am NOT
saying you CAN'T fly with just a T&B but that is ONLY
and indirect indication of wing level. I don't think I will
get an argument that an ACTUAL indication of WING
level is better than an old fashion yaw indicator. I do
think it still has a place in the panel, but be realistic
in you ability to save the say with JUST a T&B.
Cheers George M. RV-4/RV-7 ATP, CFI-CFII-MEI
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mprather(at)spro.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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|
Hello George,
In practice, if the 2 AI's disagree, how does the pilot break the tie (an
issue Bruce Gray has raised)? With a panel that has a T&B and single AI,
if there's conflict, no flag on the T&B, and the T&B wiggles, the T&B
wins.
Moving the controls to center the T&B and center the skid indicator should
yield upright wings-level flight. Coordinating application of ailerons and
rudder gets you there.
I don't have your years of instruction (nor that much hot homebuilt time -
mostly my Varieze, which is properly stable, and some RV time).. When
people have a tough time recovering from unusual attitudes, do they have
the ball centered, but just continue to turn? Or do they flop about,
varying in and out of coordination? Maybe marginally stable-unstable
airplanes that lack sophisticated autopilots are poor candidates for IFR
flight..
Regards,
Matt-
| Quote: |
I don't vote for a TC or T&B as back-up, I vote for an attitude
indicator.
I have good sound reasons to say so and it is not based
on any pilot should be able to fly partial panel. It comes
from many years of giving instruction.
As Bob and others pointed out a T&B or TC does not tell
if the wings are level. I understand Bob's statement if you
are not yawing you are no turning, BUT you are also not
necessarily wings level.
Also on the other hand you can be wings level and be
yawing (turning). Example, a skidding turn w/ rudder and
opposite aileron. Wings level but yawing. The point is the
T&B and TC do not tell you if the wings are level.
Given the choice I would want a pictorial ATTITUDE
indication, with a direct indication of wing (roll) and
pitch, even though I know I can fly a T&B.
With a T&B as long as I keep it upright I am good, but
once you've lost it you're in a pretty bad situation and
may not survive. Statistics bare this out. I realize some
auto pilots are Yaw based but than they do a better
job keeping it upright than most pilots. I doubt many
yaw only autopilots can recover from an unusual
attitude.
Flying with only a T&B you have no direct indication of
the wings being level. With an attitude indicator you do,
which is better, obviously. I don't think I am going to
get an argument here.
However to recover from unusual attitude with just
altimeter, airspeed, T&B and slip skid ball (needle ball and
airspeed) is a real talent, and most pilots will NOT survive
if faced with this. This is fact based on studies. Many
vacume failures in IMC, leaving just the T&B has resulted
in the loss of aircraft and crew. What makes us think we
can survive, for real, under high stress actual IMC?
Who last practiced or last attempted an unusual attitude
recovery under the hood or IMC with just Needle Ball &
airspeed?
The best and only way to recover from a unusual nose
low dive or graveyard spiral is level the wings first before
applying back pressure. What is the best way to know
if the wings are level? An ATTITUDE indicator. A real
time pictorial depiction of aircraft roll and pitch.
So lets say IMC diving with only a T&B you get it to stop
yawing, where are the wings? How do you level the wings?
If in a hot homebuilt you are way past Vne and dead.
T&B and TC are dampened. Too much dampening they
are useless for recovery because of the lag. If they don't
have enough damping they are useless because they
are flopping around with any yaw or turbulence.
I appreciate Bob's old school attitude, but I have been
teaching in aviation for over 20 years and I know the
skills of mere mortals, typical pilots. They respond and
consistently perform better with an attitude display not
a yaw display. Many old time pilots have died trying
to fly after the Vac pump failed. The history of real
partial plane with real pilots in real IMC is poor.
I appreciates Bob's pride in being able to fly needle ball
and airspeed. I can do it too. However if you have not
done it, for real in turbulence or IMC in a small home
built with natural roll stability, sensitive control and a
low drag configuration that builds speed very fast when
pointed down hill, I think we would all want a back-up
ATTITUDE indicator.
Yaw is great but a picture of you wings being level is
more important or priceless as they commercial says.
With the advent of cheap battery powered ATTITUDE
indicators I think the day of T&B or TC only back up
are gone.
Now if you want to practice "partial panel" I suggest
you find a good safety pilot who knows their job, safety
and looking for traffic. Get a Francis IFR hood,
http://www.ifrhood.com/ ,
not an el-cheepo foggles or plastic visor. Use some
tape and cardboard paper and blank out areas of the
canopy you might cheat, peripheral or straight ahead,
but don't block the safety pilots view.
Best practice is at night over sparsely populated area.
Also a good idea is get ATC flight following for your
practice. Now do partial panel unusual attitude recovery.
Look down at the floor and let the safety pilot roll the
pitch the plane, who than will give it back to you as you
look up to the panel. If you can recover consistently
than good. Most will not with just a T&B. With an
attitude indicator everyone will recover with a little
practice. With just a T&B your chance of getting it
level is limited. Never let the speed get to Vne. The
safety pilot should take over early. There is no need
to push it. Of course the safety pilot must have enough
currency in type and visual clues to recover safely.
I am not talking about training that is so over the top
that no one can survive. I am talking about real training
that is realistic that gives you a real indication of your
ability to fly and recover IMC partial panel.
A Cessna you can almost just let go and it will almost
recover. A hot home built forget it; they have the stability
of a jet fighter. There was a time when more military
fighters where lost to IFR accidents than lost due to
combat.
That is my point. Don't cheat forget the T&B and TC if
you really want a back up. It's 2006; there are many
backup attitude indicators available for less than $1000.
They are all electric but so is a T&B or TC.
These are my opinions after 1000 hours teaching GA
and airline pilots in planes and simulators. I am NOT
saying you CAN'T fly with just a T&B but that is ONLY
and indirect indication of wing level. I don't think I will
get an argument that an ACTUAL indication of WING
level is better than an old fashion yaw indicator. I do
think it still has a place in the panel, but be realistic
in you ability to save the say with JUST a T&B.
Cheers George M. RV-4/RV-7 ATP, CFI-CFII-MEI
---------------------------------
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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In a message dated 6/21/2006 1:42:05 P.M. Central Standard Time,
mprather(at)spro.net writes:
Hello George,
In practice, if the 2 AI's disagree, how does the pilot break the tie (an
issue Bruce Gray has raised)? With a panel that has a T&B and single AI,
if there's conflict, no flag on the T&B, and the T&B wiggles, the T&B
wins.
Moving the controls to center the T&B and center the skid indicator should
yield upright wings-level flight. Coordinating application of ailerons and
rudder gets you there.
Good Evening Matt,
Methinks you have it precisely correct!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
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rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:37 am Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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T&B vs TC vs AI,
I'm not IFR certified, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
AND, I'm with George on this one.
There's a real good reason the AI is in the center of the flight instrument
"six pack" and the anchor point of your scan. The information displayed is
intuitive. That is, you can get a whole lot of info in a hurry with little
or no interpretation necessary. You just yank and bank until the little
airplane looks just right and all is well in Neverland. Let's face it, if
either the T&B or the TC were anywhere near as good there wouldn't even BE
an AI in the panel! Is anyone on this forum advocating we fly IFR without
one ON PURPOSE???
As for tie breaker... Well, it's the same ole same ole. ASI, ALT and VSI for
pitch info. TC (or T&B) and DG for bank info. If the lights are out, don't
trust the electric stuff. If the suction gauge says kaplooey, don't trust
the vacuum Stuff. If you've got an electric AND a vacuum AI, you go with the
one that agrees with whichever system is operational and cover up the other
one. This isn't rocket surgery!
I think the tie breakers for this discussion are the NTSB reports. How many
times have we read that the pilot and passengers were killed when the plane
broke up in flight soon after the AI went tits up? That pilot was surely
trained in partial panel ops but when the chips were down, he couldn't
handle the situation and his victims paid the price for his penny pinching
in IMC. If you can afford to fly IFR, you can afford a back-up AI.
Rodney in Tennessee
do not archive
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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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All-
As I recall it, a T&B or TC can't tumble, as opposed to AH's. There are
aerobatic (360 degree) AH / AI / ADI's, but not sub kilobuck, as I
understand it.
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
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Bob and Matt:
Good points, I'll address, Bob first.
>posted by: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
| Quote: |
JFK Jr and Carnahan both had operative Attitude Indicators available.
Skill with either an attitude indicator, a T&B or a TC would also have
saved their lives.
My reason for having the T&Bs in my panel has to do with cost,
reliability and availability.
I totally disagree with your premise that an attitude indicator is
"best" or "better".
|
Bob:
You make good points and each to his own.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think an AI is far
superior to staying alive in IMC than just needle ball, airspeed.
I DID IT ONCE, for real, IMC and it was not fun. I have 100's hrs
practicing partial panel as pilot and instructor. It is one thing to
be VFR under a hood and another to be in the soup with no
attitude/DG gyros. Even a DG would be better than a T&B.
May be your Bonanza V35B is super stable and easy to fly.
A C-182 flys it self. However stats show people don't do so
good (dead) just on a T&B for real. This not only my opinion
but what I observe and what the NTSB stats show. COST is not
a good reason to scrimp on a good back-up. I am just being
realistic.
You may have supreme confidence in your partial panel ability.
You should, because your life and life of your passengers
depend on it as PIC, Captain. As a pilot I owe my passengers
the best I can give them. That is why I don't fly IFR in single
engine planes, single pilot, with vacuum pumps and a sole
T&B for a back up and no autopilot. Just too much can go
wrong.
I flew 100's of hours of solid actual as a CFII with students,
in the foggy, rainy low stratus North West, in basic low tech
C-172's. I also have supreme confidence in my skill, but as
I get older, I see the limitations and CHOOSE not to take the
risk. Why do it? It is your choice as PIC and plane owner to
make your decisions on the level of safety you want to operate.
You can improve your IFR safety with:
-Trainning
-Currency
-Autopilot
- and a good independant back-up AI source.
If outfitting my RV-7 for IFR flight my back-up will be an AI.
You are going with the tried and true T&B back-up, great, but
just because it's the old way of doing it, does not make it good.
We have the technology for relatively cheap electronic gyro
back-ups, ranging in price from $500-$2200.
No ego; no I CAN FLY ANY plane and the crate it came in,
stuff. Just a realistic understanding of the limitation of partial
flight under actual conditions with real GA pilots.
You can deny it, but I challenge you to get real unusual attitude
training under the hood with partial panel. I have seen pilots roll
the plane inverted, over correct an go almost vertical in pitch and
so on. There ARE limitations to that instrument you put your
faith in. IT is not the be all end all, the AI is. Survival almost
is a matter of not only skill but luck. If a pilot can not do
aerobatics VFR, the certainty are unlikely to recover from an
extreme attitude with just a T&B, slip/skid ball, airspeed and
altimeter. It can be done, but it is unlikely.
The T&B. It worked for decades and is a good cross check, but
as a stand alone solo gyro to fly with, it is marginal in practice.
That is my story and I am sticking to it. Good night and good luck.
>posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
| Quote: |
>In practice, if the 2 AI's disagree, how does the pilot break
|
| Quote: | the tie (an issue Bruce Gray has raised)? With a panel that
has a T&B and single (AI), if there's conflict, no flag on the
T&B, and the T&B wiggles, the T&B wins.
|
Matt the answer is the fundamentals of instrument scan:
- Cross Check
- Interpret
- Control
If one AI says right turn and climbing
The other, second AI, says nose low left turn
The airspeed is increasing
The DG or heading shows a left turn
The second wins
If the opposite is happening,
the first (AI) wins.
Remember primary secondary instruments
or Controlling and monitoring. It is not a big deal.
There is no substitute for a good scan, understanding what it
means (rate, change, direction) and control.
My point is an Attitude Indication (AI) is better than a T&B or TC.
I agree for the cheap a T&B / TC is useful. However if choosing
an independant backup to my EFIS, which is what started this
whole thing, I want a second AI and don't want to just count on
a T&B. Cost is not a driving factor, if I am going to take on the
serious business of flying IFR.
Here are some suggestions:
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&product_id=7439
read the sales pitch but they do have a point
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&product_id=7439#desc
There are a dozen of these electronic Attitude indicators that
would make excellent back-ups ($500-$2200)
http://www.flynavgps.com/egyro.htm
http://www.pcflightsystems.com/pcefis.html
http://www.pcflightsystems.com/products.html
http://www.pcflightsystems.com/egyro.html
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/elitesupport.php
http://www.dynondevelopment.com/docs/EFIS_intro.html
http://www.xbow.com/General_info/gyro_guide.htm#display
http://www.aveousa.com/avionics/instruments/aveoMax/assets/HRS-3,4.jpg
http://www.aveousa.com/avionics/instruments/aveoMax/index.php
(5th item from bottom)
Mechanical gyros wear out, need repair. Do aerobatics with
your mech gyros, vacume or electric, does not matter, do you
think it's wise to fly IMC with those same mechanical gyros
you have just been ringing out doing acro?
A NEW TC with plug is about $600! Are you going to get
a bargain basement WWII T&B or some Chinese made one
to save your life? Get a solid state AI with battery power.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
|
|
| Quote: | posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
In a spin, neither the DG nor the AI will tell you anything.
Using turn coordinator and airspeed recovery was rather
easy...easier than having a spinning earth out the windshield.
|
It has been fun debating. The T&B / TC camp has made a
great case for the T&B and I have a renewed respect for this
instrument. However it is fading from modern instrument
panels for better or worse. Clearly in the early days it was
a main stay and saving grace for the original unreliable
Artificial Horizon as they where called.
T&B is very reliable device and does tell you which way you
are yawing or turning. It is also a great cross check for the
AI when all is well or not. No doubt. However a T&B as a
stand alone back-up instrument to a EFIS, I am not a big fan.
(Look at certified Cirrus and Lancair's)
Yes the T&B or TC does give you the initial direction to recover
for a unusual attitude or spin, but I always taught and found the
subsequent final recovery is by AI. I never found the AI tumble
w/ just a single spin in one direction. Yes a basic vacuum AI
found in a Cessna has limits and hits the stops but still it is
effective as long as you are not doing aerobatics.
As some one said the AI needs no interpolation and you can
correct quickly and accurately, once you got it off the stops.
Of course modern EFIS attitude indicators are AEROBATIC
if you will.
When you where doing your spin recovery, whether you knew
it or not you where likely getting info from the AI and outside.
The fundamental of any attitude instrument flying is to cross
check, LOOK at all the instruments and interpret. Initial scan
on T&B yes, but than use all instruments.
T&B (TC) does not tumble or is less likely because it's a single
axis gimble and they are centered by a centering force (springs
or similar). The T&B (TC) stays centered when not powered.
More stable but less sensitive. A T&B is very limited but that's
it's charm. So what makes it reliable makes it less usable as
a stand alone attitude instrument.
Notice a mechanical gyro (AI) dies and flops over to the side
when you shut the power off (elect or vac). This is what makes
it more sensitive. There are centering forces (pendulum vanes),
that are more complicated than a T&B, but also allows it to tumble.
However we have progressed in technology. They early 50's
mechanical gyros where HORRIBLE and failed daily. Later
and more modern mechanical gyros, Vac or Elect since the
70's or 80's where much much better, not perfect but good.
The weak link has been for some time the dry vacuum pump.
The elect mechanical AI's are good but expensive. Now
today's EFIS with no moving parts as eclipsed the mechanical
gyro for reliability and cost are coming down. My $2000 Dynon
is an amazing piece of equipment. Not perfect but good.
Here is a good article
http://www.avweb.com/news/avionics/183240-1.html
You CAN'T buy a new airliner or business plane w/ mechanical
gyros anymore. My guess is GA planes also will stop coming
w/ mech gyros and yes T&B's. Already all top end GA planes
have EFIS and no T&B. Cirrus / Lancair all EFIS and no T&B.
These top of line EIFS GA planes do come with backup
mechanical airspeed, altimeter and attitude indicator (AI)
but no T&B.
Here is the clincher, I'm NOT saying T&B /TC have NO
current use. They are required! REQUIRED by the FAR's.
If you have a regular AI you must have a T&B or TC (rate
of turn indicator). However EFIS have the RATE a turn
indication. My Dynon does.
Also the Regs allow you to omit a rate of turn indicator
altogether if you have AI's at each pilot station and one
back-up AI with independent power source. So you don't
see T&B's on Cirrus, Lancair or Jets but you will see two
or three AI's.
I bring this up because this is what the FAA says. If no
T&B is good for airliners than may be we can live with
out them, provide we have acceptable AI back-ups.
As T&B and TC become less popular with EFIS panels
the T&B price goes up. To buy an old WWII T&B is a bad
idea in my opinon. No matter if you get it rebuilt, it will
not be a safe reliable accurate instrument. (I know)
T&B and TC are not bad and have a use but it was from the
limitations of technology and the first (AI's) in the old days.
As far as inverted IFR IMC spin recovery, you are seriously
screwed at that point. The idea is an (AI) is less likely going
to allow you to get to that point, but as Bob pointed an AI
is no guarantee of success. However I say you got a better
chance with a (AI) than JUST a T&B. However the training
to read the T&B and AI (cross check) may save your tail.
I just say I never want to spin IMC. I also never want to fly
partial panel IMC (AGAIN)!
| Quote: | Posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com (rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com)>
Modern avionics include device traditionally called gyro's that
contain not even one moving part. Nothing
|
You make good points, an electronic AI (EFIS) should keep
up with the any gyration and not tumble like an old mechanical
gyro. My Dynon EFIS is aerobatic and has a rate of turn bar.
To be fair to Bob O. back in the day old T&B where the most
reliable gyro, because the state of the art AI gyro where terrible.
My 1958 Apache came with a BIG old black and white AN job.
I did lots of partial panel.
Just flying along the ancient AI would just ROLL over and die
on occasion. It would come to life. I just ignored it and used
the DG. Thankfully I replaced the DG with a modern vertical
card, verses the old barrel window type it had. After a little while
the AI would erect again with a little LEAN. You could re-cage
and it would be fine for a while. I replaced it needless to say
with a modern AI.
Of course the Apache (a twin) had dual generators and Vac
pumps. Please no twin wars.
Again T&B or Rate of turn is still required, BUT the regs do
require it, provided you have a AI at each pilot station and
an independent AI back-up. You will not find rate of turn,
T&B or TC in jets anymore. THEY ARE GONE.
Now with a GPS hdg / track we don't use the compass much,
do we?
Do the Cirrus or Lancair Columbia have T&B's? No
(for better or worse?)
>posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
| Quote: |
Will you please stop discussing this off topic (remember -
aeroelectric-list) which has gone far beyond any reasonable
length.
|
I feel your pain that is why I am making another post. (kidding)
Chill man we are having fun and learning.
I did not know you became the Post Police. May I suggest
instruments, back-up inst., redundancy and electrical
systems are very relevant.
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: More on the TC vs T&B (unusual attitude) |
|
|
A few points. The gyros of the 50s and sixties were actually WWII
manufacture AN gyros, and they were very good, if properly overhauled. I
flew behind them for 25 years. Only overhauled once. Only partial panel
was due to loss of vacuum. If your experience is different, you were
getting mishandled, crappy overhauls.
As for spin recovery...in a plane with the more modern 3 1/8
instruments...AH was useless throughout the recovery, still tumbled, and
once the turn was stopped, no need for AH, just ease the yoke back to
pull out of dive, still ensuring no turn.
AI or AH are still the same as made in the '70s and just as crappy.
Rarely last 5 years without overhaul, because the bearings and rotor are
much smaller than AN gyros. Only when you move up to HSI and flight
director do you get some quality bearings and long life.
Jury is still out on solid state sensors, and in the GA price range I
don't think any are approved for certified aircraft.
Rate of turn instruments can now be legally replaced with Art. Horizon
as Hal Sheevers(Sportys) prevailed with the FAA and there is advisory
circular approving same, as long as you still maintain redundant power
between the gyros.
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | It has been fun debating. The T&B / TC camp has made a
great case for the T&B and I have a renewed respect for this
instrument. However it is fading from modern instrument
panels for better or worse. Clearly in the early days it was
a main stay and saving grace for the original unreliable
Artificial Horizon as they where called.
When you where doing your spin recovery, whether you knew
it or not you where likely getting info from the AI and outside.
The fundamental of any attitude instrument flying is to cross
check, LOOK at all the instruments and interpret. Initial scan
on T&B yes, but than use all instruments.
However we have progressed in technology. They early 50's
mechanical gyros where HORRIBLE and failed daily. Later
and more modern mechanical gyros, Vac or Elect since the
70's or 80's where much much better, not perfect but good.
The weak link has been for some time the dry vacuum pump.
The elect mechanical AI's are good but expensive. Now
today's EFIS with no moving parts as eclipsed the mechanical
gyro for reliability and cost are coming down. My $2000 Dynon
is an amazing piece of equipment. Not perfect but good.
Here is a good article
http://www.avweb.com/news/avionics/183240-1.html
You CAN'T buy a new airliner or business plane w/ mechanical
gyros anymore. My guess is GA planes also will stop coming
w/ mech gyros and yes T&B's. Already all top end GA planes
have EFIS and no T&B. Cirrus / Lancair all EFIS and no T&B.
These top of line EIFS GA planes do come with backup
mechanical airspeed, altimeter and attitude indicator (AI)
but no T&B.
Here is the clincher, I'm NOT saying T&B /TC have NO
current use. They are required! REQUIRED by the FAR's.
If you have a regular AI you must have a T&B or TC (rate
of turn indicator). However EFIS have the RATE a turn
indication. My Dynon does.
|
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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