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John Kirkgaard
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Denmark
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 Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 4:48 am Post subject: Twisted fuselage, or? |
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It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders.
I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times.
Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different methods.
First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions.
Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin bracket,
on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line.
The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same level.
Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pin
socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one.
The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm
higher than the port side.
Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there.
And same for the foot wells.
So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rear
wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level between the doors.
But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb?
Thanking in advance for any reply.
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 390
Location: Aberdeen area
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Twisted fuselage, or? |
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Hello John,
Presumably this is the aircraft which you first saw in Canada? You've told me about these problems before, if I remember correctly. Were it not for covid 19 considerations, it might be useful for me to come over and give you a hand. Failing that, all that I can suggest is that perhaps we could have a Skype type of discussion while you point a camera at the problems. I think I understand your drawings, but it would be useful for me to see the problem areas "in real time" which might be almost as good as being there in person.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
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SteveIvell(at)pestproof.c
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 1:58 am Post subject: Twisted fuselage, or? |
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Hi John
As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just about every single aircraft.
Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.
Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such as Bud Yearly.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
Mob: 07971 128842
E-mail: steveivell(at)pestproof.co.uk
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:37 am Post subject: Twisted fuselage, or? |
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Steve and John,
Sorry I missed your post John.
Perhaps we should go off line to get into the nitty gritty. Many times it is how we level and how much can we fudge.
I'd like to know some history on your build, Classic/XS then discuss. Email: budyerly(at)msn.com
Leveling is a process.
I use a piece of aluminum angle and it on the wing spar bolts out of the cockpit bulkhead and then set my 2 foot digital level on the angle.
To compare, I set the digital level on the stab tube facing forward. Don't flip the level, it will most likely be slightly different.
If the wing pins and stab tube are level. That is great.
It is not uncommon to get the top on slightly askew.
If the two wing pins and stab tubes are level within .5 degrees on a fully complete aircraft, I have to accept that.
In the build, once cockpit module is set, I level to the wing pins in the back seat bulkhead. I then set my stab tube. The fuselage is flexible and once the tube is set it is necessary to use blocking/timbers to set the stab and wing pins dead even.
Then put the top on and drop a plumb bob down the tail post. Cleco the top in place to get the tail vertical to the wings and stab tube. With the tailplanes blocked up, pull the clecos and glue the top up. Put the top on and I screw it down as you can read in my techniques area.
On a salvaged Classic Kit to straighten up the plane (my 12AY was one of these) I replaced my stab tub bearings and releveled the tubes to the wing pins.
On the Classic foam fin, it is tough to do but essentially, I cut the fin off carefully, then rebuild. It sounds awful but not much more than a couple days and a lot of dust.
Then glue it up. Tape the joint line again and fill, fill, fill.
The XS is a pain. There are remedies but I'm afraid all are somewhat painful.
Again, it comes down to how you measure. Do I care if the area between the doors at the top is slightly off? Not really. People don't notice that. They notice when the fin is leaning in comparison to the wings and tailplane.
Email me direct and we'll hopefully find an acceptable solution.
Bud Yerly
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:13 am Post subject: Twisted fuselage, or? |
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Steve. It doesn’t matter too much what the level of the lift pin sockets are. What matters is the angle of incidence of the wings and also that the lift pins are securely fixed into the alloy plates embedded in the wing roots. Before contemplating moving anything you should measure the angle of incidence of both wings. (method in the builders’ manual). They may be identical whilst the placing of the lift pins and lift pin sockets are not precisely the same in relation to the fuselage. The latter probably doesn’t matter very much as long as the positioning of the lift pins is mot too far from the centre of those alloy plates. The rear lift pin socket should have been positioned married up with the previously fixed wing pin with the wings checked as having equal AOI. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-05-15 10:57, Steve Ivell wrote: [quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: Steve Ivell <SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk (SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk)>Hi JohnAs every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just about every single aircraft.Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such as Bud Yearly.Kind RegardsSteve IvellMob: 07971 128842E-mail: steveivell(at)pestproof.co.uk (steveivell(at)pestproof.co.uk)--
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Twisted fuselage, or? |
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My tail is 1cm lower on one side due i think to fuse twist despite measuring everything about a million times. It doesnt affect the flying characteristics.
So it happens...
Id echo david's comments. Maybe if your fuse is tilted as it were it doesnt matter provided the wings are the same incidence and structurally sound.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sat, May 15, 2021, 11:16 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
[quote]
Steve. It doesn’t matter too much what the level of the lift pin sockets are. What matters is the angle of incidence of the wings and also that the lift pins are securely fixed into the alloy plates embedded in the wing roots. Before contemplating moving anything you should measure the angle of incidence of both wings. (method in the builders’ manual). They may be identical whilst the placing of the lift pins and lift pin sockets are not precisely the same in relation to the fuselage. The latter probably doesn’t matter very much as long as the positioning of the lift pins is mot too far from the centre of those alloy plates. The rear lift pin socket should have been positioned married up with the previously fixed wing pin with the wings checked as having equal AOI. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-05-15 10:57, Steve Ivell wrote: [quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: Steve Ivell <SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk (SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk)>
Hi John
As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just about every single aircraft.
Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.
Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such as Bud Yearly.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
Mob: 07971 128842
E-mail: steveivell(at)pestproof.co.uk (steveivell(at)pestproof.co.uk)
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