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Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

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bob88

Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 99

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

Is there a best practice for plexiglas protection during installation? Also what not use flox to glue them in? Everyone seems to dislike weld-on.

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

Marty



I am sure there are wiser people than me, but here's what I did. 



First I trimmed the protective plastic back to leave a sufficient perimeter around the window for gluing. I taped the plastic to keep it it neat. I left the plastic on as long as possible for protection purposes while working around the windows. 



I used a Lord adhesive that I got from Geoff Combs at Aeroplastics to glue the windows. I stayed away from Weld-on. My glass fit would have caused crazing if I used Weldon given the pressure required to get things in place. 



Cheers



Led

Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, "bob88" <marty.crooks(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Is there a best practice for plexiglas protection during installation? Also what not use flox to glue them in? Everyone seems to dislike weld-on.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420700#420700

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

I usually just leave the plastic on the plex.

  How well flox sticks to the plastic is entirely dependent on what resin it's made with.  Typical laminating resins won't bond all that well to plex.  If others are having success with Lord or something else, I'd be inclined to try that.  But I've seen a few "general purpose" and laminating epoxies used that weren't meant specifically for plex.  They didn't bond well at all.

  



Weld-On makes a strong bond because I believe it sort of softens the plex.  You can think of it as kind of taking root in the plastic.  Because of that, any distortion or preload tends to craze the area around the preloaded bond.  Lots has been written about that.

  



Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

 



On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, bob88 <marty.crooks(at)comcast.net (marty.crooks(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]   --> RV10-List message posted by: "bob88" <marty.crooks(at)comcast.net (marty.crooks(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Is there a best practice for plexiglas protection during installation? Also what not use flox to glue them in? Everyone seems to dislike weld-on.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420700#420700

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

On 3/20/2014 8:11 PM, bob88 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Is there a best practice for plexiglas protection during installation?

ACS has spray lat that puts a latex coating on the plexiglass .... the 
	


thicker the coat the easier it is to peel off.



 	  Quote: 	
		     Also what not use flox to glue them in? Everyone seems to dislike weld-on.

I plan on using the rubber sealant that they use to glue car windshields 
	


in and cover the joint with real lightweight fiberglass cloth.

There's also a product called sikaflex. 

http://www.rv8.ch/article.php/20041122082807627

I think flox will be too brittle and will crack loose due to the 

expansion coefficient differences between the acrylic and the FG cabin top.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420700#420700





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ron(at)touchtronics.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:37 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

I have a few questions.

What is the best method to cut/trim the Plexiglas windows?

Secondly, what is the best method to cut/trim the inner and outer fiberglass

door panel prior to gluing them together?

Finally, what is the best adhesive to use when gluing the two panels

together to form the doors?

RCM



--

n520tx(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:57 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

I'm doing this very work right now.



I use an angle die grinder to cut the door panels. Use the disks that

Vans supplies in the kit. The cutting is easy, just wear a mask and

long-sleeves - the glass dust will get everywhere.



As for the door adhesive, I followed the instructions and used West

Systems epoxy thickened with micro-balloons. Just bead all of the outer

edges of door and window opening, cleco the inside window frame

together, and tape/clamp/weight the door itself into position on the

cabin top. Make sure to mask off the cabin top itself, you don't want

the door curing to the frame - I used clear packing tape.



For the windows ... I've not yet started on that aspect.



--Ron



On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 08:36 -0400, Ron Mathia wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have a few questions.

 What is the best method to cut/trim the Plexiglas windows?

 Secondly, what is the best method to cut/trim the inner and outer fiberglass

 door panel prior to gluing them together?

 Finally, what is the best adhesive to use when gluing the two panels

 together to form the doors?

 RCM

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

I followed the lead of the Lancair builders and used what they use for glass

install, Hysol:

http://shop.lancair.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=9360-QT&CatId={992B7B06-E01B-

4918-BB0C-79343CDB7869}

While this is a nice product, I suspect you can find other options along

this line. 



I mixed just a little flox with this to thicken it.  After letting set for a

several days, I did add a couple of bids of glass over the joint as I've

seen several RV-10s with the "window frame" crack.  This added fiberglass

extends over the mating surface on the outside.  I also did not like the

Van's approach of not having glass on the outside as a structural element.

If you just use micro or flox to fill in the crack between the window edge

and cabin top, you have a high likelihood of paint cracking.



If you are not going to add the overlay of glass and just rely on the

adhesive then you might want to stick to Van's instructions.



No matter which way you go make sure you roughen up the mating surfaces with

something like 40 grit paper.



If I had to do it again I'd do the same approach.



Carl

--

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

I used Weld-On 45, the thicker version of 10. The windows are very secure with minor paint cracking on the outside around the perimeter.

_________________
Wayne G.

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:32 am Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

The lord adhesive is very strong and easy to use. It is great for windows,

attaching the canopy top and gluing in an

Overhead if you have one. You could also use it to glue door skins together.

It will not craze the windows

Geoff Combs

--

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

I've used the diamond wheel bit for dremel tools to cut most of the thinner

fiberglass parts.  It's makes short work of the things if the glass is not

too thick.  I did not know about it when I did the doors but just about

everything after that I used the dremel.  I find it easier to steer than

using a die grinder plus my air compressor does not keep up with die grinder

usage either.  I also used this to trim the door windows as well.  I then

followed up w/belt sander to smooth the edges and clean up rounded corners

and such.



http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Accessories/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=545



-Ben

--

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

I like the diamond Dremel too.  There's a mandrel I think called EZ Lock that lets it tip and sort of swivel somewhat. They're a little expensive but they work really well.



On Friday, March 21, 2014, Ben Westfall <rv10(at)sinkrate.com (rv10(at)sinkrate.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Ben Westfall" <[url=javascript:;]rv10(at)sinkrate.com[/url]>

  

 I've used the diamond wheel bit for dremel tools to cut 

 	




-- 

--Dave Saylor

  [quote][b]

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

Ron, did you use micro balloons, or Cabosil?  They're not the same thing, and easy to get confused since they look similar. Cabosil is more appropriate when making a structural bond.



On Friday, March 21, 2014, Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com (n520tx(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Ron Walker <[url=javascript:;]n520tx(at)gmail.com[/url]>

 

	
 

 	  Quote: 	
		   epoxy thickened with micro-balloons. 

 	




-- 

--Dave Saylor

  [quote][b]

n520tx(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

Thanks for the correction Dave - I need to be more precise in my

wording. You'd think that I'd know that after taking your workshop ;o)



--Ron



On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 08:31 -0700, Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ron, did you use micro balloons, or Cabosil?  They're not the same

 thing, and easy to get confused since they look similar. Cabosil is

 more appropriate when making a structural bond.

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

I've seen Hysol go both ways on windows. Please keep in mind that the Lancair window install is much different, utilizing a heavy secondary layup to secure the plexiglass in a strong groove, not just a joggle.  Like instead of the cosmetic layup to prevent cracks, they use several layers of heavier cloth. 



I used Hysol around the joggle of my windscreen and it's been fine.  But knowing what I know now, I wouldn't do it that way again.  



On Friday, March 21, 2014, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <[url=javascript:;]carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net[/url]>

  

 I followed the lead of the Lancair builders and used what they use for glass

 install, Hysol:

 http://shop.lancair.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=9360-QT&CatId={992B7B06-E01B-

 4918-BB0C-79343CDB7869}

 While this is a nice product, I suspect you can find other options along

 this line.

 

 I mixed just a little flox with this to thicken it.  After letting set for a

 several days, I did add a couple of bids of glass over the joint as I've

 seen several RV-10s with the "window frame" crack.  This added fiberglass

 extends over the mating surface on the outside.  I also did not like the

 Van's approach of not having glass on the outside as a structural element.

 If you just use micro or flox to fill in the crack between the window edge

 and cabin top, you have a high likelihood of paint cracking.

 

 If you are not going to add the overlay of glass and just rely on the

 adhesive then you might want to stick to Van's instructions.

 

 No matter which way you go make sure you roughen up the mating surfaces with

 something like 40 grit paper.

 

 If I had to do it again I'd do the same approach.

 

 Carl

 

 

 --

dmasys

Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 22

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

"Everyone seems to dislike weld-on" is something of a misapprehension, no doubt caused by the amount of chatter on the newsgroups.  Van's didn't choose Weld-on lightly or without the engineering to support its preferred use.

This thread was alive back in 2007 when I was building my -10, and I was persuaded, particularly by builders outside of the US who could not get Weld-on and referred to the practices of fast glass builders in using a structural adhesive that would accommodate differential thermal effects of the plexi and the composite canopy.  So I went with one of those products (no longer offered but essentially like ES6279 Aeropoxy).

Fast forward about 450 flight hours, and I am at 15,000 feet over Atlanta's Class B airspace, without outside air temperature -15C and inside the cabin toasty warm at 75 degrees, with the heaters going wide open. Happy as proverbial clam when BAM! a loud noise and I look back to see that the rear window has come unglued and departed the aircraft:  http://faculty.washington.edu/dmasys/RV10/RV10_lostwind_rearview.jpg

Suffice it to say I glued in the replacement using Van's procedure and Weld-on, which is terrific stuff, not as much a problem as the list would portray, and known to be reliable.  So from my perspective you put yourself at unnecessary risk of an unhappy event if you get creative in deviating from the factory guidance on this issue.

Sadder but wiser...

-Dan Masys

N104LD 670 hrs

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, bob88 <marty.crooks(at)comcast.net> wrote:

>

> Is there a best practice for plexiglas protection during installation?

> Also what not use flox to glue them in? Everyone seems to dislike weld-on.

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420700#420700

>

ron(at)touchtronics.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: Best way to protect Plexiglas during installation

Thanks, Ron, for the suggestions, as soon as it warms up enough to work in the hanger I will start on the doors.



Regards, RCM



--

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

I think Weld-On 10 is too thin, making it messy to work with and it does not fill gaps properly. I called the mfr and they recommeded Weld-On 45. A special cartridge gun dispenser and mixing nozzles are needed which is probably why Van's recommends Weld-On 10. A friend up in PA used it and I will pick it up in the next few weeks if someone needs it. I have been to 16.5 at -2C with heat and vents open just to see if I could blow one out.

_________________
Wayne G.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

Only -2C?????



Man, that ain't nothing.

You should come up here and see how it goes.

My hangar was -35C this winter, and I've been flying

many times at way lower than -2C.



-2C is the temperature at which Wisconsin folk start

wearing shorts when they shovel the driveway.



Tim

do not archive





On 3/21/2014 3:04 PM, rv10flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>



 I think Weld-On 10 is too thin, making it messy to work with and it

 does not fill gaps properly. I called the mfr and they recommeded

 Weld-On 45. A special cartridge gun dispenser and mixing nozzles are

 needed which is probably why Van's recommends Weld-On 10. A friend up

 in PA used it and I will pick it up in the next few weeks if someone

 needs it. I have been to 16.5 at -2C with heat and vents open just to

 see if I could blow one out.



 -------- Wayne G.

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: Best way to protect plexiglas during installation

Try Alaska!



 



On Mar 21, 2014, at 14:15, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Only -2C?????

 

 Man, that ain't nothing.

 You should come up here and see how it goes.

 My hangar was -35C this winter, and I've been flying

 many times at way lower than -2C.

 

 -2C is the temperature at which Wisconsin folk start

 wearing shorts when they shovel the driveway.

 

 Tim

 do not archive

 

 

 

 

 On 3/21/2014 3:04 PM, rv10flyer wrote:

> 

> <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>

> 

> I think Weld-On 10 is too thin, making it messy to work with and it

> does not fill gaps properly. I called the mfr and they recommeded

> Weld-On 45. A special cartridge gun dispenser and mixing nozzles are

> needed which is probably why Van's recommends Weld-On 10. A friend up

> in PA used it and I will pick it up in the next few weeks if someone

> needs it. I have been to 16.5 at -2C with heat and vents open just to

> see if I could blow one out.

> 

> -------- Wayne G.

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