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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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My fuel system consists of two five gallon stock tanks from Kolb. I run both tanks to a selector valve on a small panel located just in front of the throttle. The pickups in each tank are on a piece of fuel line that comes in from the top of each tank, and goes to an in tank fuel filter. It is one that I purchased from Aircraft Spruce and is of the type commonly used in model airplanes. Basically it keeps the lumps out, and also serves the purpose of being able to follow the fuel. ( if you are in a downward angle the filter should run to the front of the tank, or vice versa) From the selector valve the outgoing line goes to a home made gascolator, then to a facet fuel pump and on to the stock diaphragm fuel pump that came with the engine.
My EIS is set to trigger the alarm with one gallon of fuel left in the tank. I am running an HKS 700 E on my Firestar II, that gets around 3 gph. at 5200 rpm's. I have about 200 hours on it, and I am pleased with it. I however have never tried an in air restart, nor checked to see just how long or far the plane will fly when the red light begins to blink. This evening was the day to find out.
I climbed up to 1500 feet agl and switched to my front tank that had 1.8 showing in the front tank. I took the wife's kitchen timer up with me, and got my Garmin ready to reset the miles when I punched the button. When the alarm went on, I turned the timer on. I was flying at 5600 RPM. Maximum cruise is 5800 rpm's. I wanted the test to be on the conservative side. When the engine quit, I had been flying 16 minutes and had covered 17 miles.
Engine restart was a non event. I switched tanks,pulled the throttle all the way back, and the engine fired on the first revolution. No choke necessary.
I do not intend to fly on my reserve on purpose, but I did want to know how far I could go if It became necessary.
Larry
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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Good exercise.
Don't forget to practice your "actual" dead stick landings.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:11 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: reserve fuel tank test
My fuel system consists of two five gallon stock tanks from Kolb. I run both tanks to a selector valve on a small panel located just in front of the throttle. The pickups in each tank are on a piece of fuel line that comes in from the top of each tank, and goes to an in tank fuel filter. It is one that I purchased from Aircraft Spruce and is of the type commonly used in model airplanes. Basically it keeps the lumps out, and also serves the purpose of being able to follow the fuel. ( if you are in a downward angle the filter should run to the front of the tank, or vice versa) From the selector valve the outgoing line goes to a home made gascolator, then to a facet fuel pump and on to the stock diaphragm fuel pump that came with the engine.
My EIS is set to trigger the alarm with one gallon of fuel left in the tank. I am running an HKS 700 E on my Firestar II, that gets around 3 gph. at 5200 rpm's. I have about 200 hours on it, and I am pleased with it. I however have never tried an in air restart, nor checked to see just how long or far the plane will fly when the red light begins to blink. This evening was the day to find out.
I climbed up to 1500 feet agl and switched to my front tank that had 1.8 showing in the front tank. I took the wife's kitchen timer up with me, and got my Garmin ready to reset the miles when I punched the button. When the alarm went on, I turned the timer on. I was flying at 5600 RPM. Maximum cruise is 5800 rpm's. I wanted the test to be on the conservative side. When the engine quit, I had been flying 16 minutes and had covered 17 miles.
Engine restart was a non event. I switched tanks,pulled the throttle all the way back, and the engine fired on the first revolution. No choke necessary.
I do not intend to fly on my reserve on purpose, but I did want to know how far I could go if It became necessary.
Larry
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If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
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[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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Hi,
why do you make things so complicated? I ran my Xtra with 2 tanks. They both fed equally at the same time. I never had an extra pump, a selector, gascolator etc. I could see how much fuel there was in the tanks by turning my head. When my neck got stiff I used a little mirror. All these extras add weight and add to the list of things which can go wrong.
First rule of building airplanes. SIMPLIFY AND ADD LIGHTNESS.
Pat
From: Larry Cottrell (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 4:10 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: reserve fuel tank test
My fuel system consists of two five gallon stock tanks from Kolb
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racerjerry
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: Re: reserve fuel tank test |
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Be careful with tiny in-tank filters; their capacity is so small that they can plug solid and cause fuel starvation. Whenever I need real power, I am generally in a nose-high attitude and consequently locate fuel pickups to the rear.
Also, with fuel lines taken from the top of the tanks, if both tanks are connected together with a T fitting; when one tank sucks air you will get no fuel from the second tank – just more air. In my Kolb, with tandem tanks, apparently venting pressures were not identical causing fuel levels not to equalize which resulted in QUIET FLIGHT if fuel level in one tank was allowed to run too low.
Also, that is darned good advice: “Don't forget to practice your "actual" dead stick landings.” Practice when the pressure is OFF and you are over friendly territory / nice long runway.
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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"why do you make things so complicated?"
Nothing much complicated about it. I choose which tank I want to run on, I can monitor the levels in them. If I should have junk or water in the fuel, it is kept from the engine. As for weight- I think I can tolerate the extra weight that an extra 6 feet of fuel line adds. Of course I forgot the selector switch- that should be almost an ounce there. The PVC that makes up my gascolator might add 4 or 5 ounces. As for compensating for the facet fuel pump, I handle that by taking a bathroom break before flying.
With my current setup, if necessary I can pull almost all the gas in the tanks completely, if that should become necessary. I tried the tanks tied together for a while, and found that I didn't like it. The biggest reason was that due to the attitude that a Kolb flies in, one tank is almost a gallon lower that the other. That means that an extra gallon of gas will be left in the tanks when it starts sucking air. They never drew the same. I don't always completely fill my tanks when I fly. Not much reason to carry around an extra 30 pounds of fuel when I only plan to fly a short distance, such as across England. 
Larry
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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" In my Kolb, with tandem tanks, apparently venting pressures were not identical causing fuel levels not to equalize which resulted in QUIET FLIGHT if fuel level in one tank was allowed to run too low."
I don't think that is due to air pressure, but due to the tail high attitude that our Kolbs fly.
Larry
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 9:06 AM, racerjerry <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>
Be careful with tiny in-tank filters; their capacity is so small that they can plug solid and cause fuel starvation. Whenever I need real power, I am generally in a nose-high attitude and consequently locate fuel pickups to the rear.
Also, with fuel lines taken from the top of the tanks, if both tanks are connected together with a T fitting; when one tank sucks air you will get no fuel from the second tank – just more air. In my Kolb, with tandem tanks, apparently venting pressures were not identical causing fuel levels not to equalize which resulted in QUIET FLIGHT if fuel level in one tank was allowed to run too low.
Also, that is darned good advice: “Don't forget to practice your "actual" dead stick landings.” Practice when the pressure is OFF and you are over friendly territory / nice long runway.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422195#422195
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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Patrick L/Kolbers:
Adding lightness must be a British thing. Is that the opposite of adding heaviness?
Scratching my head at hauck's holler, Alabama.
Yes, I remember the year Patrick and Windy Ladd (sp) visited us at the Unplanned, Unorganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah. Think that was probably 2006/7??? We haven't had one there since 2010, the one I missed. Now we gather/roost at the Rock House near Burns Junction, OR.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
First rule of building airplanes. SIMPLIFY AND ADD LIGHTNESS.
Pat
[quote] [b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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It's American, but attributed to various people. I've often heard it attributed to Kelly Johnson (Blackbird, etc), but..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bushnell_Stout
The actual quote is 'simplicate and add lightness.' Eliminate anything that isn't absolutely needed; keep what's left as light as possible.
Charlie
On 4/21/2014 11:44 AM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote] 1024x768 <![endif]--> Clean false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Patrick L/Kolbers:
Adding lightness must be a British thing. Is that the opposite of adding heaviness?
Scratching my head at hauck's holler, Alabama.
Yes, I remember the year Patrick and Windy Ladd (sp) visited us at the Unplanned, Unorganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah. Think that was probably 2006/7??? We haven't had one there since 2010, the one I missed. Now we gather/roost at the Rock House near Burns Junction, OR.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
First rule of building airplanes. SIMPLIFY AND ADD LIGHTNESS.
Pat
[b]
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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Patrick L/Kolbers:
Adding lightness must be a British thing. Is that the opposite of adding heaviness?
I only described my system so that a reader could understand what I was trying to discover. I assure you that it was not intended to advocate what I use.
I have flown my Firestar for 17 years and 642 hours. I have tried every variation of fuel setups that has been used by any and all. I discarded the "tied or connected tanks" early because with tandem tanks the rear tank being higher fed more of the fuel to the engine than the front one. Thus leaving about a gallon or 6 pounds of fuel in the front tank when the back one started sucking air. This system would effectively only have 7 gallons of useful fuel before you reached your reserve. That would leave 3 gallons as a reserve. One in the rear tank, and two in the front. Total of 18 lbs of fuel. That covers a lot of fuel line. If you were to draw all of the fuel out of the system while flying, you would only have 9 gallons ??? to use.
My system is duplicated, (that's a good thing I hear, almost as good as lightness) If one tank fails, I have another. My fuel is filtered twice before it goes into the plane. Once at the station, and once out of my fuel tank that I pump from. Once it gets into the planes tank it is filtered there, then again before it gets to the carbs.
My test yesterday shows that I can burn almost all of the fuel in both tanks. That extra gallon will give me about 20 miles less distance to walk. Might not mean much to you, but it gets to be a struggle out here.
Again, my letter was not intended to suggest to anyone that my setup is the best. It is however what I use, suit yourself. I personally worry less about weight than I do reliability, and being suitable to my environment. You do as you wish.
Larry
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| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:47 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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Makes sense.
Thanks for "enlightening" me. I need it.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 12:59 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: reserve fuel tank test
It's American, but attributed to various people. I've often heard it attributed to Kelly Johnson (Blackbird, etc), but..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bushnell_Stout
The actual quote is 'simplicate and add lightness.' Eliminate anything that isn't absolutely needed; keep what's left as light as possible.
Charlie
On 4/21/2014 11:44 AM, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: |
Patrick L/Kolbers:
Adding lightness must be a British thing. Is that the opposite of adding heaviness?
Scratching my head at hauck's holler, Alabama.
Yes, I remember the year Patrick and Windy Ladd (sp) visited us at the Unplanned, Unorganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah. Think that was probably 2006/7??? We haven't had one there since 2010, the one I missed. Now we gather/roost at the Rock House near Burns Junction, OR.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
First rule of building airplanes. SIMPLIFY AND ADD LIGHTNESS.
Pat
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: reserve fuel tank test |
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Yes, I remember the year Patrick and Windy Ladd (sp) visited us at the Unplanned, Unorganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah. Think that was probably 2006/7???
Hi John,
That would be it. I remember on the drive to Santa Fe looking at the GPS in the car. It read `In 150 miles Turn Left`
Thats America.
Have a good meet.
Pat
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First rule of building airplanes. SIMPLIFY AND ADD LIGHTNESS.
Pat
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