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densing(at)carolina.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: Working on experimentals



You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it. If you sell

an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection can only

be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an A&P.

The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the Condition

Inspection on only the designated airplane.

Dale Ensing

sawad13(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: Working on experimentals



Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.

Ron Awad

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Working on experimentals

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500

<densing(at)carolina.rr.com>

You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it. If you

sell

an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection can only

be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an A&P.

The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the Condition

Inspection on only the designated airplane.

Dale Ensing

Steve Glasgow

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 674

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Working on experimentals



Cappy stands corrected. However, I still feel it may be problematic in regards to liability.

Steve Glasgow-Cappy

N123SG RV-8

Cappy's Toy

704-362-0005

704-281-7884

-

_________________
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: Working on experimentals



I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you can add oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials. IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no different that what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."

robbie(at)atlanticpkg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Working on experimentals



Nope. This has been covered ad nauseum elsewhere. Those rules only

apply to certificated aircraft. ANYONE can work on an experimental,

whether they're the builder or not; even rebuild the wing!

Only the annual condition inspection must be done by an A&P or the

original builder with a Repairman's Certificate. If the original

builder is not issued a repairman's certificate for some reason, he

can't do the inspection either.

Whether it's WISE for ANYONE to work on the plane is another matter.

Robbie Walker

Arr-Vee-Wanna-Bee

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Working on experimentals



Well, okay- guess I was wrong. I'll consider it settled when Eddie Shields weighs in on it or someone provides a reference as to "elsewhere."

robbie(at)atlanticpkg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals



Not only that, but you don't need a tailwheel, complex, or high-power

endorsement to operate an experimental (as long as you aren't

carrying any passengers)

FAR 61.31(k)(2)(iii)(B)

Robbie Walker

robbie(at)atlanticpkg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals



Let me clarify, that I at least have a MORE SENSE than to try this, I

was just pointing out the differences between experimental and

certificated.

Personally the idea of trying to "learn by doing" something like

tailwheel operations or aerobatics scares the WILLIES outta me...

Weight Loss Update: 15 lbs and dropping, but I had a gout flare-up

last night so I've gotta get off the low carb long enough to get the

purines outta my system. Maybe I'll fit in a RV-7 instead of an 8?

Robbie Walker

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals



sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Well, okay- guess I was wrong. I'll consider it settled when Eddie Shields weighs in on it or someone provides a reference as to "elsewhere."

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Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals

---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals



You jerkin' my chain, Charlie?

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals



sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

You jerkin' my chain, Charlie?

- The Matronics RVSouthEast-List Email Forum -
 
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List

sawad13(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: Working on experimentals

Stormy I disagree



Ron Awad



[quote]From: sportav8r(at)aol.com

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Working on experimentals

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500






I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it."  Sure, you can add 

oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an 

autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.  

IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no different that 

what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."



My $.02



-Stormy



--

sawad13(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Working on experimentals

Yeah I was waiting for this to be settled before I dropped that bombshell on 

them Robbie!





Ron Awad



[quote]From: Robbie Walker <robbie(at)atlanticpkg.com>

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Working on experimentals

Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:17:39 -0500




<robbie(at)atlanticpkg.com>



Not only that, but you don't need a tailwheel, complex, or high-power

endorsement to operate an experimental (as long as you aren't

carrying any passengers)



FAR 61.31(k)(2)(iii)(B)



Robbie Walker

______________________________

That ideas should spread from one to another over the globe, for the

moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his

condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by

nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space,

without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in

which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of

confinement or exclusive appropriation.

Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

	-- Thomas Jefferson

On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:13 PM, sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:



 > 

 >

 > Well, okay-  guess I was wrong.  I'll consider it settled when

 > Eddie Shields weighs in on it or someone provides a reference as to

 > "elsewhere."

 >

 > If that's how it really is, it seems like disaster waiting to happen.

 >

 > -Stormy

 >

 > --

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: Working on experimentals

Very pithy, Ron 

 

After reading the preceeding comments from this morning, I am inclined to disagree with myself, too.  I take back all that I said, and admit that I was laboring under a misconception.  My $.02 was worth $0.00!

 

I am still not comfortable with any ol' yahoo being able to wrench on an experimental plane,  then carry passengers in said plane, and have no one check his work until annual condition inspection time, at which point he might just take his airframe logbook and checkbook to a restaurant for what we call around here a "New London Special"  (Eddie S. will know what I mean). In that case, his workmanship is not only uninformed by any familiarity with the plane during construction, but is never inspected by anyone, period (until the NTSB shows up).

 

One thing I did learn from all this is that I should get my op lims out of that moldy envelope in the glove box and read whether I should have called the FSDO about those autopilots last year and the new panel going in.  I may need to apply for new op lims; do I recall a discussion of this awhile back, with the EAA offering to help (something to do with congested area overflights)?  Fill me in...

 

Best,

 

-Stormy

 

--

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: Working on experimentals

Let me add that I'd be okay with all this if an A&P sign-off was required before returning the plane to service, vs. once a year, but that is obviously not the case.  Apparently a Repairman Cert is not especially useful or distinguishing to its holder more than once per annum.  I wonder if that was the original intent.

 

-Stormy 

 

--

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals

sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Very pithy, Ron 

 

After reading the preceeding comments from this morning, I am inclined to disagree with myself, too.  I take back all that I said, and admit that I was laboring under a misconception.  My $.02 was worth $0.00!

 

I am still not comfortable with any ol' yahoo being able to wrench on an experimental plane,  then carry passengers in said plane, and have no one check his work until annual condition inspection time, at which point he might just take his airframe logbook and checkbook to a restaurant for what we call around here a "New London Special"  (Eddie S. will know what I mean). In that case, his workmanship is not only uninformed by any familiarity with the plane during construction, but is never inspected by anyone, period (until the NTSB shows up).

 

One thing I did learn from all this is that I should get my op lims out of that moldy envelope in the glove box and read whether I should have called the FSDO about those autopilots last year and the new panel going in.  I may need to apply for new op lims; do I recall a discussion of this awhile back, with the EAA offering to help (something to do with congested area overflights)?  Fill me in...

 

Best,

 

-Stormy




	


I've 'upgraded' oplims on 2 different -4's that I didn't build. The 1st 

was over 5 years ago, when the new rules came out allowing you to sign 

off major alterations yourself. At that time, once you had the new 

wording in hand (including a defined test area) you could make any major 

change, make a log entry re-entering phase 1, fly 5 hours doing all 

required tests (Ha...) and make another log entry returning the plane to 

phase 2.



The 2nd was a couple of years ago, post 911 & the new wording is similar 

but with a major difference: you must contact the FAA & get confirmation 

that your defined test area is still acceptable. I was a bit ticked 

about this change & asked 'Das Fed' on the RV-list about it & he said 

that it was a nation-wide mandated change. Obviously, it's still a lot 

better than the old oplims where there had to be a complete reissuance 

of your paperwork any time there's a major change. If you haven't 

changed an old oplim to reflect the self-sign-off features, you are 

still obligated to go through all the old monkey motion. Odds are, most 

FAA offices will issue the new oplims the 1st time you notify them of a 

major mod just to cut down on their headaches in the future.



Anything that's not a minor mod (spelled out somewhere in the FAR's) is 

a major mod. I would never point out that on an experimental a/c with no 

log entries or photographic evidence proving it's original 

configuration, changes are for all practical purposes undetectable. 

Unless, of course, you log the update or it's something like a Trutrak 

that wasn't available when the plane was 1st signed off. Props *don't* 

fit this description because they almost always appear somewhere in the 

paperwork. That's probably the easiest way for insurance companies to 

not pay, since many, many owners neglect to notify the FAA when they 

change props.



At the risk of sounding like a Libertarian, I feel the need to point out 

that virtually all regulations, including FAA regulations, exist to 

enable taxation or limit competition, rather than promote safety. Even 

though I didn't build any of the experimentals I've owned, I'm confident 

that I'm at least as qualified to inspect them as a typical a&p or ia, 

because they've never touched an experimental. The same is true for less 

common factory planes like the Swift. Most Swift owners know more about 

their planes than the ia's that are available in their area, because the 

ia's have never touched one. When I was 1/2 owner of a Swift, our ia 

basically "P51'd" (Parker once made a pen with that identifier) any work 

we did.  If I bought Ed Anderson's RV-6A with a Mazda engine, which ia 

should I call to maintain & inspect it?



I think my fever is breaking now, so maybe it's time to stop my rant. 



Have fun in Lakeland.



Charlie

robbie(at)atlanticpkg.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals

Guys I certainly wasn't trying to start anything. When I "were  

learnin'" about homebuilding I noticed this particular aspect of the  

maintenance rules and it stuck with me. Certainly interesting stuff.



Stormy (who I don't think I've ever met...), I agree with you in  

principle. One of the other lists I follow is the Quad-City  

Challenger list. At one time I was considering that plane as a  

"starter homebuilt". One of the more tragic stories related on that  

list was of a dentist and his wife. Apparently this couple was as  

nice & decent as you'd ever meet. The dentist was a very good stick  

too. In an effort to increase the travel of his elevator he moved the  

pivot attach to the other side of the elevator. With no mechanical  

stop in the design, his modification allowed him (and his wife) to  

take off, but they didn't survive the crash. The elevator "flipped"  

over.



It seems pointless to discuss the merits of the idea after their  

tragic death, but the lesson from this mistake is obvious.



NB: I've probably got the details of the story wrong, but the gist is  

accurate and sobering.



Robbie Walker

______________________________

I can speak French but I cannot understand it.

       -- Mark Twain

On Jan 12, 2006, at 1:55 PM, sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:



[quote] 



 Let me add that I'd be okay with all this if an A&P sign-off was  

 required before returning the plane to service, vs. once a year,  

 but that is obviously not the case.  Apparently a Repairman Cert is  

 not especially useful or distinguishing to its holder more than  

 once per annum.  I wonder if that was the original intent.



 -Stormy



 --

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals

Au contraire, Robbie; I have a Green Sea Fly-In certificate from you.

 

We've met; the pleasure was apparently all mine 

 

Stormy / N30YD 

 

--

sawad13(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: Working on experimentals

Stormy, if you think about..... On our RV airplanes, they are not really all 

that experimental. Other than a few like Ed Anderson who are "experimenting" 

with auto engines, and some who try different cowl mods etc...



Our RV's are pretty much per plans and Most people - be it the pilot, the 

owner, the mechanics, the passengers - they all can expect a certain 

something of the plane. This is probably one reason insurance for a RV is 

not too expensive.



But what if you or I decided to make our own plane from scratch. What if we 

decided to power it with 4 Briggs lawnmower engines linked to turn one prop, 

and we decided to make it a TriWing, and maybe we want to do some other 

weird stuff like put both a nose wheel and a tailwheel and make the plane 

able to use either depending on field and wind conditions.  Maybe we decide 

to make the plane out of molded plastic or half aluminum and half wood....  

I could go on and on, but my point is that on " our " homemade plane there 

is nothing that is a given about it and nothing about it is "certain" other 

than we made it ourselves.



The beauty of Amauter build Experimental rules we have here in the USA is 

that we could build a kit from Vans and have pretty much as good of a 

airplane as any Cessna and have the flexibilty to do our own maintance and 

annuals, plus do modifications as we see fit..... but we also have it good 

in that we can truely experiment, even if it is not what you or I or the 

engineers at Cessna thinks is safe.



As for passengers.... this is the reason for the words WARNING EXPERIMENTAL 

in bold letters to be in plain view. This is a warning and any passenger- 

and really any pilot- should take very seriously. I mean who in the world 

would go to some fair or theme park and hop on a roller coaster someone 

designed on a paper towel and had the words WARNING HOME BUILT EXPERIMENTAL 

ROLLER COASTER  ??????????   Not me!!!

Now up until a year or so ago the rules about flying a experimental were 

even very loose. By this I mean that say that the rules were, any person 

holding ANY pilot certificate rating higher than Glider - it could be 

Rotorcraft, or Fixed Wing - could fly any type of Experimental..... AND 

carry passengers, all without specific type requirements. Example, A person 

with  Airplane private pilot certificate Single engine land could legally go 

out and buy or build a experimental Helicopter and fly it legally by himself 

or with a passenger and legally he would not have to have any helicopter 

endorsements, additional ratings, or even the first hour of helicopter 

instruction.



Why would the rules allow for such madness???



It goes back to the intent of the whole class of being experimental. And it 

makes it easy to experiment......



For example, what if you took your typical RV-6 airframe. To fly it as a 

Certified plane you would need SEL airplane. If has a tailwheel so you would 

also need a tailwheel endorsement. Then you "experiment" and add floats to 

land it on the lake, so now you need a seaplane endorsement too.  Later you 

decide to boost the engines power to 230 hp so now you need a Hi performance 

endorsement.  After a year or two your bored so you come up with a plan to 

add a pylon and you install a set of rotorblades above the thing so once you 

takeoff you can fly it as a autogyro, this way you will never have to worry 

about stalling while your flying slow over the lake. So now you need a 

Rotorcraft / Gyroplane add-on to your certificate. Later you decide if you 

power the rotors you could hover and this would allow you to land it and 

takeoff from the small pond behind your house, so now you need to go and get 

your helicopter add-on as well.................... Now is this a likely 

thing, A RV-6 turned into a helicopter on floats? Probably never, but the 

beauty of our laws is we got the freedom to do that, and the additional 

freedom to do it without having to become over burdened with rules and regs 

and so on to do it.



The laws are always changing and one day I would not be surprised to see 

these freedoms taken away.



Already the laws have changed as far as carrying passengers go. If you want 

to carry a passenger in a experimental aircraft today, you need the most 

approriate rating for the type of aircraft it is. So if it is a Rotorway 

Exec helicopter you will need a Private Pilot rating Rotorcraft/helicopter. 

If it is a Vans RV-4 like mine, you will need a PP SEL with tailwheel 

endorsement.  YOU can still fly ANY experimental with ANY rating - airplane 

pilot flying a helicopter for example - but only solo, no passengers without 

specific type rating.



Ron Awad



[quote]From: sportav8r(at)aol.com

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Working on experimentals

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:51:16 -0500






Very pithy, Ron 



After reading the preceeding comments from this morning, I am inclined to 

disagree with myself, too.  I take back all that I said, and admit that I 

was laboring under a misconception.  My $.02 was worth $0.00!



I am still not comfortable with any ol' yahoo being able to wrench on an 

experimental plane,  then carry passengers in said plane, and have no one 

check his work until annual condition inspection time, at which point he 

might just take his airframe logbook and checkbook to a restaurant for what 

we call around here a "New London Special"  (Eddie S. will know what I 

mean). In that case, his workmanship is not only uninformed by any 

familiarity with the plane during construction, but is never inspected by 

anyone, period (until the NTSB shows up).



One thing I did learn from all this is that I should get my op lims out of 

that moldy envelope in the glove box and read whether I should have called 

the FSDO about those autopilots last year and the new panel going in.  I 

may need to apply for new op lims; do I recall a discussion of this awhile 

back, with the EAA offering to help (something to do with congested area 

overflights)?  Fill me in...



Best,



-Stormy



--

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