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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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|
Concur
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:27 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 2014
Getting instruction from an "Aerobatic" instructor will not get the gear down any better
I would appreciate it if the FAA would not get involved in a non-event like a gear up landing in a Yak. Not much damage not much of an issue.
Good luck fighting the government.
On May 21, 2014, at 13:41, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be> wrote:
| Quote: |
To all the Yak listers:
Mr Verhellen is at war with the airfield of Namur. That is obvious.
He 'll do whatever he can to harm the airfield and the people that are
based there.
I try to stay out of his fight. It's none of my business but this time,
and only this time, I have to react.
(at)Etienne: KEEP YOUR PERSONAL STUFF OFF THE LIST! YOU ARE ABUSING THE LIST.
Jan, Yak 50, F-AZUK, based ath the Namur airfield.
PS: I will not respond on eventual replies from Etienne Verhellen
On 20/05/14 22:38, "Etienne Verhellen" <janie(at)yak52.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Another Yak-52 'gear-up' landing accident in Belgium .... [Exclamation]
> [Exclamation] [Exclamation]
> ==============================================
>
> Sunday 18 May 2014 - Namur airfield, EBNM.
>
> See attached photo taken just a few moments after the crash in EBNM.
>
> # Yak-52 Serial No. : 822203.
> http://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft-for-sale/piston/single-engine/Yak/52-34707
> /Yak-52-for-sale-34707.200.1.jpg
> http://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft-for-sale/piston/single-engine/Yak/52-34707
> /
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/96986043(at)N08/14044351540/
>
> Previously UK CAA registered (G-YAKO) and maintained under the
> supervision of the UK Civil Aviation Authorithy
> according to the Directives from the aircraft manufacturer, the Yakovlev
> Design Bureau (YDB) regarding Life items
> (Airframe, Engine, Propeller, Air bottles, Actuators, hoses, ...)
> http://www.yakuk.com/mpd.htm
> https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20140318MPD2002009R3.pdf
> http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=de
> tailnosummary&fullregmark=YAKO
> http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-Y
> AKO&imgname=G-YAKO001&imgtype=jpg
>
> ... But then 'received' a Polish registration when it arrived in Belgium
> ...
> (Belgian CAA Inspectors and AAIU - the 'Belgian AAIB' - have ABSOLUTELY
> NO CLUE about Yak-52) ...
> RA-xxxxK, SP-YAM, F-WRUH, F-AZXK, LY-FOU, T7-xxx, ... etc etc
>
> At least 2 'gear up' accident for the 'pilot' of this Yak-52 :
> This one and one on Saturday 4 September, 2010 ...
>
> # Yak-52 Serial No. : 899409 (RA-1453K then Temporary French registration
> F-WRUH)
> has done at least 3 'gear-up' landings in Namur airfield EBNM, Belgium ...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/62861611(at)N08/8951700885/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/96986043(at)N08/14230563495/
>
> So ... at least (!!!!!) ... 5 Yak-52 'gear-up' accidents at Namur
> airfield in Belgium (EBNM).
>
> Maybe more because they do not get reported when they happen at Namur
> airfield [Rolling Eyes]
>
> NOT a single report to Belgian CAA (DGTA) and Air Accident Investigation
> Unit (AAIU - Mr Luc Blendeman)
> by the pilot or by the airfield 'commander' ...
> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport_aerien/accidents/notification/
> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/binaries/accid01NF_tcm467-215518.pdf
> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/binaries/airw09%20NF_tcm467-215537.pdf
> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport_aerien/aeroports/terrains/aerod
> romes/
>
> How come Herbert Decouvreur is still in charge as 'Commandant
> d'Aérodrome' ??
> Protected by some Safety Inspectors maybe ... (Mrs Geneviève Laloux -
> Hugo WUYTS ??)
> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/binaries/INS01NF_tcm467-215745.pdf
> A lot of accidents at Namur airfield ... 19 October 2013 ... 11 people
> KILLED. Something needs to be done.
> Something MUST be done by the Belgian CAA before more people die.
>
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> A few years ago there was another VERY serious Yak-52 accident that could
> have 'easily' killed 2 or 3 persons.
> The Belgian AAIU was informed but NOT INTERESTED.
> No accident report published although it was promissed ...
> So NO LESSON learned. I am fed up with this attitude.
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> [Arrow] Is there an issue with the maintenance of Yaks in Belgium
> [Question] YES.
>
> [Arrow] [Arrow] Is there an issue with the training of Yak pilots in
> Belgium [Question] [Exclamation] Quite clearly YES [Shocked]
>
> _____________________________________________
>
> [Idea] Maintain your Yaks properly.
>
> [Idea] Get type specific training from an experienced Yak-52 Aerobatic
> FI (A) Flight Instructor.
>
> [Idea] [Idea] Put the gear down before landing.
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/flight_international_yak_52_issues_orig
> inal_363.pdf
>
> Cheers.
> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/403690/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
> 52/
>
> --------
> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/240525/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
> 52/
> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/215762/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
> 52/
> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/403690/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
> 52/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423517#423517
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/accident_arodrome_de_namur_ebnm__dimanc
> he_18_mai_2014__yak_52_sp_yam__dgta__aaiu_800x600_150.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/accident_arodrome_de_namur_ebnm__dimanc
> he_18_mai_2014__yak_52_sp_yam__dgta__aaiu_2_743.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_52_training_airworthiness_and_regis
> tration_issues_111.pdf
>
|
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:47 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
|
|
A fact of life and aviation. NO ONE --- NO ONE, no matter their flying time or license in their. pocket, is safe from NOT making a gear up landing. And it's a fool who thinks any government can do any better.
Sent from my iPad from some where on The 3rd rock from the Sun.
| Quote: | On May 21, 2014, at 6:07, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
Concur
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:27 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 2014
Getting instruction from an "Aerobatic" instructor will not get the gear down any better
I would appreciate it if the FAA would not get involved in a non-event like a gear up landing in a Yak. Not much damage not much of an issue.
Good luck fighting the government.
> On May 21, 2014, at 13:41, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be> wrote:
>
>
>
> To all the Yak listers:
>
>
> Mr Verhellen is at war with the airfield of Namur. That is obvious.
>
> He 'll do whatever he can to harm the airfield and the people that are
> based there.
>
> I try to stay out of his fight. It's none of my business but this time,
> and only this time, I have to react.
>
> (at)Etienne: KEEP YOUR PERSONAL STUFF OFF THE LIST! YOU ARE ABUSING THE LIST.
>
>
> Jan, Yak 50, F-AZUK, based ath the Namur airfield.
>
>
> PS: I will not respond on eventual replies from Etienne Verhellen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 20/05/14 22:38, "Etienne Verhellen" <janie(at)yak52.fr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Another Yak-52 'gear-up' landing accident in Belgium .... [Exclamation]
>> [Exclamation] [Exclamation]
>> ==============================================
>>
>> Sunday 18 May 2014 - Namur airfield, EBNM.
>>
>> See attached photo taken just a few moments after the crash in EBNM.
>>
>> # Yak-52 Serial No. : 822203.
>> http://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft-for-sale/piston/single-engine/Yak/52-34707
>> /Yak-52-for-sale-34707.200.1.jpg
>> http://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft-for-sale/piston/single-engine/Yak/52-34707
>> /
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/96986043(at)N08/14044351540/
>>
>> Previously UK CAA registered (G-YAKO) and maintained under the
>> supervision of the UK Civil Aviation Authorithy
>> according to the Directives from the aircraft manufacturer, the Yakovlev
>> Design Bureau (YDB) regarding Life items
>> (Airframe, Engine, Propeller, Air bottles, Actuators, hoses, ...)
>> http://www.yakuk.com/mpd.htm
>> https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20140318MPD2002009R3.pdf
>> http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=de
>> tailnosummary&fullregmark=YAKO
>> http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-Y
>> AKO&imgname=G-YAKO001&imgtype=jpg
>>
>> ... But then 'received' a Polish registration when it arrived in Belgium
>> ...
>> (Belgian CAA Inspectors and AAIU - the 'Belgian AAIB' - have ABSOLUTELY
>> NO CLUE about Yak-52) ...
>> RA-xxxxK, SP-YAM, F-WRUH, F-AZXK, LY-FOU, T7-xxx, ... etc etc
>>
>> At least 2 'gear up' accident for the 'pilot' of this Yak-52 :
>> This one and one on Saturday 4 September, 2010 ...
>>
>> # Yak-52 Serial No. : 899409 (RA-1453K then Temporary French registration
>> F-WRUH)
>> has done at least 3 'gear-up' landings in Namur airfield EBNM, Belgium ...
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/62861611(at)N08/8951700885/
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/96986043(at)N08/14230563495/
>>
>> So ... at least (!!!!!) ... 5 Yak-52 'gear-up' accidents at Namur
>> airfield in Belgium (EBNM).
>>
>> Maybe more because they do not get reported when they happen at Namur
>> airfield [Rolling Eyes]
>>
>> NOT a single report to Belgian CAA (DGTA) and Air Accident Investigation
>> Unit (AAIU - Mr Luc Blendeman)
>> by the pilot or by the airfield 'commander' ...
>> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport_aerien/accidents/notification/
>> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/binaries/accid01NF_tcm467-215518.pdf
>> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/binaries/airw09%20NF_tcm467-215537.pdf
>> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport_aerien/aeroports/terrains/aerod
>> romes/
>>
>> How come Herbert Decouvreur is still in charge as 'Commandant
>> d'Aérodrome' ??
>> Protected by some Safety Inspectors maybe ... (Mrs Geneviève Laloux -
>> Hugo WUYTS ??)
>> http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/binaries/INS01NF_tcm467-215745.pdf
>> A lot of accidents at Namur airfield ... 19 October 2013 ... 11 people
>> KILLED. Something needs to be done.
>> Something MUST be done by the Belgian CAA before more people die.
>>
>> _____________________________________________________________
>>
>> A few years ago there was another VERY serious Yak-52 accident that could
>> have 'easily' killed 2 or 3 persons.
>> The Belgian AAIU was informed but NOT INTERESTED.
>> No accident report published although it was promissed ...
>> So NO LESSON learned. I am fed up with this attitude.
>> _____________________________________________________________
>>
>> [Arrow] Is there an issue with the maintenance of Yaks in Belgium
>> [Question] YES.
>>
>> [Arrow] [Arrow] Is there an issue with the training of Yak pilots in
>> Belgium [Question] [Exclamation] Quite clearly YES [Shocked]
>>
>> _____________________________________________
>>
>> [Idea] Maintain your Yaks properly.
>>
>> [Idea] Get type specific training from an experienced Yak-52 Aerobatic
>> FI (A) Flight Instructor.
>>
>> [Idea] [Idea] Put the gear down before landing.
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/flight_international_yak_52_issues_orig
>> inal_363.pdf
>>
>> Cheers.
>> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/403690/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
>> 52/
>>
>> --------
>> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/240525/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
>> 52/
>> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/215762/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
>> 52/
>> http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/403690/g-cbss-private-yakovlev-yak-
>> 52/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423517#423517
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/accident_arodrome_de_namur_ebnm__dimanc
>> he_18_mai_2014__yak_52_sp_yam__dgta__aaiu_800x600_150.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/accident_arodrome_de_namur_ebnm__dimanc
>> he_18_mai_2014__yak_52_sp_yam__dgta__aaiu_2_743.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/yak_52_training_airworthiness_and_regis
>> tration_issues_111.pdf
|
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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|
Jim;
Does that mean that everybody will do a gear up landing?
Walt
--
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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Walt,
I'm a believer in the "those who have and those who will" on gear up
landings. I normally add "and those who will again". Checklists are great,
but distractions have a way of rearing their head on even the most
professional and astute pilots. There's a good reason every Naval Air
Station in the Training Command has a Runway Duty Officer monitoring all
landings. I personally do a landing checklist over the intercom even if I'm
solo on every landing. It's a break in the normal routine that bites most.
So far, I'm in the "those who will" category!
Mark Davis
N44YK
---
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mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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|
Mark is right. Breaking the normal routine or being distracted can bite us. Another twist is that during times of distraction or multi-tasking you may inadvertently operate a an identical looking or feeling control not even realizing you've done it. This is slightly off the subject of forgetting the gear, but may prevent someone from inadvertently raising the gear on the ground. Although in different cockpit locations, the operation and appearance of the flap and gear controls on the YAK 52 is similar enough that I have modified mine so that the gear handle has a black wheel painted to look like a wheel, and my flap control has a blue airfoil like a flap as the handle. Visually they look completely different and tactilely they feel different. I don't want my brain to subconsciously link the two. You'd think it can't happen, but it can. Your brain can be a dangerous thing. I used hard wood to shape the new control knobs, drilled them and mounted them just like the originals. Before gear and flap controls were redesigned to look like wheels and flaps a number of airliners suffered gear retractions when a flight crew member raised the gear thinking they were retracting the flaps. I once extended the Flaps on my YAK while thinking GEAR. I was distracted but luckily got it sorted out when I reached down to extend the FLAPS and found them already extended. Brain Fart! I realized the two controls being nearly identical could cause big problems for me and decided then to make the changes. Brain Farts are gonna happen, and as I get older more often, so we try hard to control them with good training, SOPs, good design, and checklists. Modifying the two knobs is an easy thing to do and it may protect you from a publicly demonstrated brain fart. Good Luck. Blue side up. DUCK
On May 21, 2014, at 11:37 AM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:
[quote]
Walt,
I'm a believer in the "those who have and those who will" on gear up landings. I normally add "and those who will again". Checklists are great, but distractions have a way of rearing their head on even the most professional and astute pilots. There's a good reason every Naval Air Station in the Training Command has a Runway Duty Officer monitoring all landings. I personally do a landing checklist over the intercom even if I'm solo on every landing. It's a break in the normal routine that bites most. So far, I'm in the "those who will" category!
Mark Davis
N44YK
---
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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|
Duck,
Machine up a batch and they'll sell like hotcakes. ....at least to me!
Every Navy airplane I flew had a gear handle that looked like a wheel, a
flap handle that looked like an airfoil and a tailhook handle that looked
like a tailhook or was clearly marked as such. I never will understand why
the Soviets designed the two with the same look and feel.
Mark Davis
N44YK
---
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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|
Mark;
Absolutely agree 100%.
Almost did one many years ago with the Harvard, long story but basically
"break in the routine". The HORN saved my ass!
Which is why I have installed an almost identical gear warning system in my
CJ.
Actually my previous comment was just to pull Jim's chain! Read his poet
again.
Walt
--
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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Already did that on my CJ, Alum alloy wheels (with tread) and black
anodized.
Walt
--
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kingcj6(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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At one point, Bill Blackwell was selling a 2.5” red-colored aluminum “wheel” with “GEAR” engraved on the front, machined to fit CJ’s – clearly different than the flap ball/knob in color, size, material and shape. Not sure if it fits the Yaks.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Dave
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kingcj6(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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|
At one point, Bill Blackwell was selling a 2.5” red-colored aluminum “wheel” with “GEAR” engraved on the front, machined to fit CJ’s – clearly different than the flap ball/knob in color, size, material and shape. Not sure if it fits the Yaks.
Dave
--
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
|
| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:07 pm Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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My opinion only…..
But plenty of standard airplanes land gear up, or pull the gear up on the ground with those different knobs. While they may help. Sometimes we just make mistakes.
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kingcj6(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:26 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 2014
At one point, Bill Blackwell was selling a 2.5” red-colored aluminum “wheel” with “GEAR” engraved on the front, machined to fit CJ’s – clearly different than the flap ball/knob in color, size, material and shape. Not sure if it fits the Yaks.
Dave
--
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May |
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Wheel "shmeel", ball, knob whatever. Not gonna save your ass, even close. Hell, I flew a plane that had a button for gear up and one for gear down. Look, it can happen to anyone, I'm sorry it happened to this guy and I'm sorry it happened to that guy (on video) who had an absolute cherry CJ with and M-14 and big prop....but hey, at least he got the flaps down.....
I can say without a doubt I have whipped into the break (CJ and Miltary) and did a tight 180 to land and after landing thought I'm not sure if I ever checked the gear. Maybe I did subconsciously, maybe not. In any case, thank God for muscle memory and First Officers.......
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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Why, gentlemen do we, more times than not end up pissing off the original poster who I am sure only had the best intentions? If we keep this up the list will be populated only by those who do not believe the the axiom "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all". After all is said and done, what have you accomplished?
Doug Sapp
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Michael B. Cavanagh <mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com (mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Michael B. Cavanagh" <mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com (mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com)>
The point to this website is to share information, not debate and degrade others trying to share good ideas. I agree with you that the shape of the gear handle is no help when you've forgotten there is a handle at all. Staying current and proficient is your best defense. I never said knobs were a cure. Losing SA, and that is what forgetting the gear is about, is helped by being in front of the airplane and not being overly distracted when out of the ordinary things happen. No one is immune to forgetting the gear, and there is no one solution for preventing it. Read my paragraph again. That said, I'm dropping this website and you won't hear from me again, Mr. Mark G. Bitterlich. AMF
On May 23, 2014, at 9:33 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
>
> I think the point here is that having different shaped knobs can indeed help keep you from grabbing the wrong lever and thinking you put the gear down when it fact you did not. I don't personally believe that is an issue in the Yaks, maybe for the 52? Possible I guess. That said, I don't have any stinking flaps on the YAK-50, so it would not help me one little bit either Michael B. Cavanagh.
>
> The point Keith made is perfectly apt, and that is that ANYONE in ANY make, model, series, of aircraft (unless it is down and welded) can be the victim of landing with the gear up, or not carefully noting that all THREE (or in my case TWO) green lights are on, etc. There have been many cases where I have been on short final and have said to myself: "Did I check the gear or not?" I don't hesitate, I look at them AGAIN. After it has happened to YOU, either some very close call, or actually scraping and skidding down the runway, you tend to become paranoid about it, which is probably a good thing.
>
> Point is, the shape of the knob has no bearing on just simply forgetting to lower the dang gear, which is what Keith was alluding to and did not, in my opinion justify your publically written denigrating response, but then I have been guilty of that as well, so I have no room to talk.
>
> By the way, Keith *IS* one of the smart people.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK N66PW
>
> --
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May |
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Damn, I didn't even know I was getting slammed....and I wasn't even trying to piss anyone off!
For what its worth, without having a RALT. I set my GPS (which stares me in the face) at 100 feet AGL. AT 100 feet I get a big red warning sign. That's my mechanical safeguard.
Mike, if your the guy whose feelings got hurt. It's a post, you read it wrong. There was no contempt or sarcasm intended.....
Where can we all meet for a group hug?
S/F
K
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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So I think there are multiple parts to this.
This *IS* a forum for debate. If we can’t sit around and debate points to find the best answer, this forum is useless. If we expect someone to come with a question or comment and we should just all nod our heads in agreement to the first answer, etc. Then what service are we bringing? Debate is a good thing, personal attacks are NOT.
When someone posts a different opinion, they are NOT attacking someone, questioning their man/woman-hood/parentage, etc. It’s a different opinion. We need to stop getting our underwear in a bunch from some perceived slight because of how the text is read.
Example; some people get personally upset at curse words, others use them like adjectives throughout their speech. Go to NYC and the F bomb is used in saying good morning and how the )(*)& are you? Down south, that would be frowned upon in a huge way.
The words are just bunches of letters and you should understanding the meaning before getting upset. And in the case of the forum, they are bunches of letters and bunches of words. People typically respond on this forum quickly, without a lot of proof reading and without worry in how their quickly worded response will be received. Take 80-95% of what is on this forum as people trying to help. Otherwise, you might as well get off the internet because it is this way across thousands of forums.
As to this thread, 11 skydivers didn’t die because of a gear up landing. We’ve discussed multiple options to prevent gear up landings including experimental squat switches, horns, and modified knobs. While all those are good ideas of things to help, they will NOT prevent ALL gear up landings.
Sooo…
Give each other a hug, say you are sorry and let the spirited debate continue.
Or not…
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 1:12 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201
Why, gentlemen do we, more times than not end up pissing off the original poster who I am sure only had the best intentions? If we keep this up the list will be populated only by those who do not believe the the axiom "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all". After all is said and done, what have you accomplished?
Doug Sapp
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Michael B. Cavanagh <mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com (mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote]
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Michael B. Cavanagh" <mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com (mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com)>
The point to this website is to share information, not debate and degrade others trying to share good ideas. I agree with you that the shape of the gear handle is no help when you've forgotten there is a handle at all. Staying current and proficient is your best defense. I never said knobs were a cure. Losing SA, and that is what forgetting the gear is about, is helped by being in front of the airplane and not being overly distracted when out of the ordinary things happen. No one is immune to forgetting the gear, and there is no one solution for preventing it. Read my paragraph again. That said, I'm dropping this website and you won't hear from me again, Mr. Mark G. Bitterlich. AMF
On May 23, 2014, at 9:33 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
I think the point here is that having different shaped knobs can indeed help keep you from grabbing the wrong lever and thinking you put the gear down when it fact you did not. I don't personally believe that is an issue in the Yaks, maybe for the 52? Possible I guess. That said, I don't have any stinking flaps on the YAK-50, so it would not help me one little bit either Michael B. Cavanagh.
The point Keith made is perfectly apt, and that is that ANYONE in ANY make, model, series, of aircraft (unless it is down and welded) can be the victim of landing with the gear up, or not carefully noting that all THREE (or in my case TWO) green lights are on, etc. There have been many cases where I have been on short final and have said to myself: "Did I check the gear or not?" I don't hesitate, I look at them AGAIN. After it has happened to YOU, either some very close call, or actually scraping and skidding down the runway, you tend to become paranoid about it, which is probably a good thing.
Point is, the shape of the knob has no bearing on just simply forgetting to lower the dang gear, which is what Keith was alluding to and did not, in my opinion justify your publically written denigrating response, but then I have been guilty of that as well, so I have no room to talk.
By the way, Keith *IS* one of the smart people.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK N66PW
--
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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Can't we just drop the gear up discussion and get back with something serious like the benefits of Marvel Mystery Oil and Nomex? : )
Everyone have a safe Memorial Day weekend. Please take the time to remember the purpose of the holiday.
http://www.usmemorialday.org/?page_id=2
Fly safe, fly often and FLY NAVY!
Mark Davis
N44YK
[quote] ---
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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We're not just beating this dead horse but puree'ing it.
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Jan, I think everyone realized the worth of the original posting.
Mark
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:23 am Post subject: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201 |
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Well said Randy
Walt
From: DaBear (dabear(at)damned.org)
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 11:47 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201
So I think there are multiple parts to this.
This *IS* a forum for debate. If we can’t sit around and debate points to find the best answer, this forum is useless. If we expect someone to come with a question or comment and we should just all nod our heads in agreement to the first answer, etc. Then what service are we bringing? Debate is a good thing, personal attacks are NOT.
When someone posts a different opinion, they are NOT attacking someone, questioning their man/woman-hood/parentage, etc. It’s a different opinion. We need to stop getting our underwear in a bunch from some perceived slight because of how the text is read.
Example; some people get personally upset at curse words, others use them like adjectives throughout their speech. Go to NYC and the F bomb is used in saying good morning and how the )(*)& are you? Down south, that would be frowned upon in a huge way.
The words are just bunches of letters and you should understanding the meaning before getting upset. And in the case of the forum, they are bunches of letters and bunches of words. People typically respond on this forum quickly, without a lot of proof reading and without worry in how their quickly worded response will be received. Take 80-95% of what is on this forum as people trying to help. Otherwise, you might as well get off the internet because it is this way across thousands of forums.
As to this thread, 11 skydivers didn’t die because of a gear up landing. We’ve discussed multiple options to prevent gear up landings including experimental squat switches, horns, and modified knobs. While all those are good ideas of things to help, they will NOT prevent ALL gear up landings.
Sooo…
Give each other a hug, say you are sorry and let the spirited debate continue.
Or not…
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 1:12 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Another Yak-52 'gear up' accident in Belgium ... 18 May 201
Why, gentlemen do we, more times than not end up pissing off the original poster who I am sure only had the best intentions? If we keep this up the list will be populated only by those who do not believe the the axiom "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all". After all is said and done, what have you accomplished?
Doug Sapp
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Michael B. Cavanagh <mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com (mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: [quote]
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Michael B. Cavanagh" <mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com (mikecavanagh1(at)hotmail.com)>
The point to this website is to share information, not debate and degrade others trying to share good ideas. I agree with you that the shape of the gear handle is no help when you've forgotten there is a handle at all. Staying current and proficient is your best defense. I never said knobs were a cure. Losing SA, and that is what forgetting the gear is about, is helped by being in front of the airplane and not being overly distracted when out of the ordinary things happen. No one is immune to forgetting the gear, and there is no one solution for preventing it. Read my paragraph again. That said, I'm dropping this website and you won't hear from me again, Mr. Mark G. Bitterlich. AMF
On May 23, 2014, at 9:33 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
I think the point here is that having different shaped knobs can indeed help keep you from grabbing the wrong lever and thinking you put the gear down when it fact you did not. I don't personally believe that is an issue in the Yaks, maybe for the 52? Possible I guess. That said, I don't have any stinking flaps on the YAK-50, so it would not help me one little bit either Michael B. Cavanagh.
The point Keith made is perfectly apt, and that is that ANYONE in ANY make, model, series, of aircraft (unless it is down and welded) can be the victim of landing with the gear up, or not carefully noting that all THREE (or in my case TWO) green lights are on, etc. There have been many cases where I have been on short final and have said to myself: "Did I check the gear or not?" I don't hesitate, I look at them AGAIN. After it has happened to YOU, either some very close call, or actually scraping and skidding down the runway, you tend to become paranoid about it, which is probably a good thing.
Point is, the shape of the knob has no bearing on just simply forgetting to lower the dang gear, which is what Keith was alluding to and did not, in my opinion justify your publically written denigrating response, but then I have been guilty of that as well, so I have no room to talk.
By the way, Keith *IS* one of the smart people.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK N66PW
--
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