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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:01 am Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and one of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me thinking about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that leads to insurance.



Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and fifty hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental airplane... which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4 hours in it (give or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental airplane before I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.



Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current, get my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what happens after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped to do that time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my shiny new RV-10 sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I can fly it.



Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?



Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?



Jeff Carpenter

40304

Prop hung and about half way through the baffles

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:44 am Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

I just had a conversation with another builder that had a few hours less than you do.   Unfortunately, he was with Aggressive. (So was I). Aggressive is getting out of the aviation business and just sent out non-renewal notices. 



In addition to the hours, many companies didn't want to cover Phase 1 , many wouldn't cover first flight.  



In talking with my agent, she relayed that another RV-10 was just quoted $17k w/ $10k deductible. Ouch!!!



If were in your shoes, I would get current first. Not knowing you situation, I don't want to make any assumptions on how long that will take.  Then I would go to an ifr boot camp were you can getting your rating in a week or so.  Some will even come to you.  Naturally, you won't be very ifr proficient at this stage, but you would have the rating.  



This would kill two birds with one stone. Get more hours and the additional rating. This will drive your premiums lower. 



Then after phase 1, you can work on becoming ifr proficient. 

I don't think there are any short cuts other than throwing cash to build hours and get your ifr rating quickly. 



Bob

Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 22, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> wrote:






I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and one of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me thinking about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that leads to insurance.



Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and fifty hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental airplane... which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4 hours in it (give or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental airplane before I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.



Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current, get my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what happens after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped to do that time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my shiny new RV-10 sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I can fly it.



Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?



Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?



Jeff Carpenter

40304

Prop hung and about half way through the baffles

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

My thoughts… start flying something, anything, now while finishing up the RV-10; buy the gas for someone to fly the phase 1;  earn your instrument rating in the RV-10 with a CFII/evaluator who is RV-10 insurable; take pilots or CFIs who are RV-10 insurable on trips (breakfasts, lunch, Caribbean, etc) -- all while you are flying your RV-10 building hours.  At 250 hours total time, you get to fly by yourself.  Fly safe,  -Jim

On Aug 22, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and one of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me thinking about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that leads to insurance.

 

 Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and fifty hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental airplane... which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4 hours in it (give or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental airplane before I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.

 

 Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current, get my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what happens after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped to do that time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my shiny new RV-10 sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I can fly it.

 

 Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?

 

 Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?

 

 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

 Prop hung and about half way through the baffles

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Pretty much agree with Bob, above.

Insurance requirements are a constantly moving target.



Some thoughts:



High performance endorsement. You do not just want the paperwork, you want CS prop operation to be second nature to you before you get into your plane. I presume from your post that you have never flown anything close to the speed an RV10 is capable of. You will find yourself behind the plane, mentally. 



Are you planning on doing the phase one testing? At a minimum, have you had some spin training and do you feel comfortable with stalls and potential spins (not that the ten is likely to spin, but you are after all a test pilot)?



So, option one: go fly, get another 50 hours. Fly some faster planes. Get used to the CS prop. Use the time to get your instrument rating.



Option two: Hire a commercial or ATP rated pilot who is reasonable to insure to do your phase one testing. Then hire a CFI who is reasonable to insure (could be the same person) to instruct you in your plane, get high performance endorsement, ifr rating.



Neither of these will be inexpensive. Maybe others have other ideas.



Bob

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:26 am Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

I think recent flight experience plays a part in this.  So before you start

talking serious with the insurance agent, get some.



One way to get a little extra time and not that much money.....find friends

who need safety pilots.  



Also, if you do not have an HP rating (is that what it is called, maybe

endorsement), get one asap so you can fly as safety pilot for your friends

with HP aircraft.  I log this time when I am pilot in command.   May not be

a lot, but every little bit helps.



For years I chased a 10% discount by doing extra training and a IPC each

year.  But I am a numbers guys at heart and you know, it always cost me

money to save the 10%.  If $$ are the driver, than make sure you look

closely at all options and figure out the true costs.  I know that there is

value in getting an IPC each year.....but I think I get more real training

when me and my instructor just go out and focus on one or two things and not

worry about him covering his but signing off an IPC.



Rene' Felker

N423CF

801-721-6080



--

rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:28 am Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

1) go to Texas or Oregon and get the transition training.

2) Self insure during flyoff

3) fly your plane and get your 25-40 hours you need.



Once you have your flyoff completed, it will be easier to get insurance. I 

went with Skysmith, they worked with me.



Took less than 5 hours to get from not flying 20 years ago to flying 

the -10. After the 1st flight I figured out the plane puts up with a monkey 

flying it.. (donâ€™t ask me how I know)



Once you have the flyoff done , you'll feel more comfortable flying 

instruments and you can get a great CFI in Chino to fly with you and get you 

back on track. I'll gladly fly with you if you want a safety pilot.



Let's get out one day and you can fly my plane.



Pascal



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Just keep in mind that safety pilot time logging is complicated and only 

loosely related to who is PIC and who is qualified to be PIC. So read up 

on AOPA website on the intimate details to do it correctly.

You do not need anything past single engine land to log second in 

command time. You can log PIC any time where you are sole manipulator of 

the controls, even when you are not qualified to be PIC. So travel time 

enroute to/from an instrument approach, if PIC will let you fly it, 

would count.

You can log PIC as safety any time you are qualified to be PIC. That 

does argue for getting the HP endorsement(and complex while you are at 

it) early and then go play safety for Bonanza and Mooney and Cirrus 

pilots. Mooney is particularly good because its speeds are very similar, 

especially on takeoff and landing speeds. It also takes planning to get 

slowed up enough for landing.



On 8/22/2013 11:26 AM, Rene Felker wrote:

[quote] 



 I think recent flight experience plays a part in this.  So before you start

 talking serious with the insurance agent, get some.



 One way to get a little extra time and not that much money.....find friends

 who need safety pilots.



 Also, if you do not have an HP rating (is that what it is called, maybe

 endorsement), get one asap so you can fly as safety pilot for your friends

 with HP aircraft.  I log this time when I am pilot in command.   May not be

 a lot, but every little bit helps.



 For years I chased a 10% discount by doing extra training and a IPC each

 year.  But I am a numbers guys at heart and you know, it always cost me

 money to save the 10%.  If $$ are the driver, than make sure you look

 closely at all options and figure out the true costs.  I know that there is

 value in getting an IPC each year.....but I think I get more real training

 when me and my instructor just go out and focus on one or two things and not

 worry about him covering his but signing off an IPC.



 Rene' Felker

 N423CF

 801-721-6080



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Sorry Kelly, that is not correct.

You may log PIC time as a safety pilot if you ARE the PIC. Not just qualified to be. Generally this is not true. Here's one test:  if the engine quits, who is going to decide what field to land in? In most circumstances the aircraft owner will take over all such decisions, so he is PIC. In such cases you can only log the time as "other", not PIC. Sometimes two rental pilots will make a deal, where they each agree that the safety pilot is PIC. As long as they mean it, then they both get to log PIC time! I know some pilot examiners for whom this practice raises a red flag, though.



Kelly is correct, you do not need a High Performance endorsement to serve as a safety pilot in any single engine plane (assuming you hold private, single engine). You do need a medical. And you cannot serve as PIC.



FYI I am a CFII and do hold a LODA (waiver) to give transition training in my 10. But I have not renewed my insurance to cover this; too expensive for too little business.



LODA trainers are supposed to confine themselves to transition training, nothing else. They are not supposed to sign off high performance endorsements.



Self insuring. To be safe you need to honestly answer this question: Deep down in my heart, am I willing to throw $100K down the toilet? Or, if the engine quits over a nice corn field, but I think maybe I can make it back to the airport, what will you decide?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Correction: my post should have said that you cannot act as PIC in a high performance airplane without a HP endorsement.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:29 pm Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Sorry Bob but both your statements are partially incorrect. Being PIC 

and the ability to log PIC are two totally different things. If you 

don't believe me go to

AOPA for both their guidance and opinion of FAA general counsel. Your 

example of safety pilot acting and logging PIC and the pilot flying 

under hood also logging PIC as sole manipulator of controls is perfect 

example.  Anyone that is sole manipulator of controls can log PIC time 

regardless of whether they are qualified by endorsements to be PIC. So 

someone transitioning to HP can log the time as PIC while receiving dual 

because they are the sole manipulator and are a licensed pilot.

Just as training for commercial license can all be logged as both dual 

and PIC. On the other hand safety pilot may not log PIC time if they are 

not qualified to be PIC. Like I said, it is a tricky subject that CFI's 

and examiners frequently get it wrong.



On 8/22/2013 2:59 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Correction: my post should have said that you cannot act as PIC in a high performance airplane without a HP endorsement.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407274#407274

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Kelly,



I stand by my post. 

Everything you said in your last post is correct.

But your first post said you could log time as PIC if you were acting as a safety pilot and were qualified to be PIC. That is not good enough. You must actually be THE PIC, the person legally responsible for the safe and legal operation of the aircraft, in this particular case. The FAR 61 basis allows logging as PIC time a "required crewmember" who is acting as THE PIC.

On any flight it may be possible for multiple pilots to be logging time as PIC; but only one person is THE PIC. 

If you allow someone else to fly your plane under the hood, and you are the safety pilot, then you are almost certainly THE PIC, and you both get to log the time as PIC time*. But if you swap seats and you fly under the hood, only you can log PiC time. Your safety pilot friend is most likely not responsible for the legal operation of the aircraft, not THE PIC, he can only log "other" time.

If AOPA says otherwise they've got it wrong.



*ironicly, this is only true if you are vfr. If ifr then no safety pilot is required, so no logging of time for the person not flying.



Bob

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Kelly,



I went and read the aopa article. They have it right. They say to log PiC time when you are a safety pilot you must be ACTING as PIC. (not just qualified).



As you said the rules are complicated.

Trivia question: How is it possible for a non-instrument rated private pilot aircraft owner(person A), his non-instrument rated private pilot friend (B), and a CFII with no medical certificate (C), to ALL log PIC time on one flight?



Bob

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

I'd say we will have to agree to disagree. Theoretically, the owner/operator of the aircraft flying under the hood should agree that while he is under the hood the safety pilot will act as the PIC, but given that who is acting as PIC can change at any moment as long as the safety is qualified to be PIC they can in fact log PIC during the simulated instrument time. 

 

Just as the person manipulating the controls does not have to be qualified to be PIC to log the time. Or if the safety is instrument rated and the pilot flying isn't current they can both go get some actual to log, where there is no question who is legally PIC.

 

For those who would like to read the article in question, it is at 

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2009/October/1/Answers-for-Pilots-Logging-time.aspx

 

The whole subject is mostly counting angels on a pinhead except when using the time to qualify for a rating. 

All that is required is that the two pilots agree that during the simulated instrument time the safety pilot will act as PIC. They can change that decision at anytime during the flight.

 JMHO with 40 yrs of following the subject while licensed and 35 yrs of maintaining instrument currency.



On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

  

 Kelly,

 

 I stand by my post.

 Everything you said in your last post is correct.

 But your first post said you could log time as PIC if you were acting as a safety pilot and were qualified to be PIC. That is not good enough. You must actually be THE PIC, the person legally responsible for the safe and legal operation of the aircraft, in this particular case. The FAR 61 basis allows logging as PIC time a "required crewmember" who is acting as THE PIC.

  On any flight it may be possible for multiple pilots to be logging time as PIC; but only one person is THE PIC.

 If you allow someone else to fly your plane under the hood, and you are the safety pilot, then you are almost certainly THE PIC, and you both get to log the time as PIC time*. But if you swap seats and you fly under the hood, only you can log PiC time. Your safety pilot friend is most likely not responsible for the legal operation of the aircraft, not THE PIC, he can only log "other" time.

  If AOPA says otherwise they've got it wrong.

 

 *ironicly, this is only true if you are vfr. If ifr then no safety pilot is required, so no logging of time for the person not flying.

 

 Bob

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407289#407289

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 



 - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm

  

  [quote][b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Okay, I can agree with this - theoretically!



I just do not like to see misinformation being distributed on the internet. If you are going to log this type of time (PIC safety pilot time) you must claim to be the actual PIC - being qualified is not enough.



Getting back to the original topic, suppose "John" applies for insurance, and says he has 300 hours of logged PIC time. He gets coverage, but unfortunately soon after has an accident, his plane is totaled, plus he is being sued. The insurance company asks to see his logbook, and they notice 50 hours logged as PIC while serving as safety pilot in "Bob's" airplane.  The insurance company asks Bob to swear, under oath, that John did in fact serve as the person responsible for the operation of Bob's airplane. Bob knows that if he says 'yes' not only is he lying under oath, but his own insurance company, which would not allow John to be PIC in Bob's plane, will be very unhappy.



My point is, this is fudging the rules. Just be aware that there may be consequences. No one will care unless you have an accident, or apply for a new rating or license.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

tysonr

Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 4

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

Jeff,

 

Last year, Shanna Linton (877)-577-8267 from NationAir was able to find me a policy with US Specialty Insurance for about $3K.  I had less than 50 total hrs, all in a C172.  They required a transition training signoff which I got from David Maib (who was outstanding).   Good luck.

  [quote][b]

_________________
Tyson

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

I think the bad news here is that the insurance companies have been experiencing losses, or at least are nervous, and are pulling back. As Bob Leffer mentioned, some of the low cost companies have left this market. Others are tightening up who they will insure. I know Jenny (NationAir) recently posted that new quotes for tailwheel planes were now requiring a lot more pilot experience than previously.



My insurance just renewed last month, and my previous carrier (Chartis) wanted a small increase despite my passing 100 hr time in type (which is usually a benchmark for a lower premium). Fortunately another solid company was willing to quote less.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

FYI on insurance rates. I can't decide if I should be excited or depressed on the quotes...



Pilot stats: ~400 hours total time (~110 hours RV time), instrument rating (not current), and high power/complex endorsement.



Hull value at $175,000. Liability $1 million/occurrence with sublimit of $100,000 per passenger.  Med pay $5,000 per passenger including crew.



USAIG:

Â·         Total annual premium = $2620

Â·         Deductibles:  -0-



Specialty:

Â·         Total annual premium = $3590

Â·         Deductibles:  $250 not in motion; $2500 in motion



US Specialty:

Â·         Total annual premium = $3130

Â·         Deductibles:  -0-



Global Aerospace:

Â·         Total annual premium = $3137

Â·         Deductibles:  -0-

Â·         Med pay:  $10,000 per passenger including crew, benefit of EAA membership



Aerospace:

Â·         Total annual premium = $3279

Â·         Deductibles:  $100 not in motion; $500 in motion



AIG Aerospace:

Â·         Total annual premium = $3517

Â·         Alternate quote that is coverage for ground and taxi = $2311

Â·         Deductibles:  -0-

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

My number last Sept. from Global $2300.  $175K Hull !m/100K. I have 2000 hrs. TT, 300 RV10.   My initial quote was $2994 for first year and first flight.  I would say you have a good set of numbers for your hours.

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

woxofswa

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here

I just got insured recently. I started with AOPA because I had a previous relationship with them for 10 years on a Socata. 

They initially quoted me 2700. Then they called me back a couple of weeks later and said they found a company for 2200.  

I called them back the morning of my first engine start to bind the coverage and make the payment which they accepted. I specifically told them I was starting the engine that day and flying a week or two later. 

Later that afternoon I get an email from them wanting to verify that my fly off period was complete. I called them and reminded them that I had just told them that morning that I hadn't flown yet. 

They told me that the new company wouldn't cover the fly off period and they were sorry for the confusion. Frustratedly, I converted back to the original policy with AIG.  Next year I'm going to shop better. 

For $2700 I got 150k w/1mil no deduct.

Coverage from first flight.  No dual or checkout required. 

23K TT

2500 HP piston

Air carrier currency

ATP CFII/MEI

6 hours RV time (giving BFR's)

_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014

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