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a.s.elliott(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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Just a reminder to note that, as specifically stated in the heading section, 14CFR 91.205 applies to, and only to, “Powered civil aircraft with *standard* category U.S. airworthiness certificates”. For the larger number of us who are building/flying experimental category aircraft, the applicable rules appear in your operating limits. The recommendations in 91.205 are good guidelines, but it’s your ops limits, and the general requirement to have appropriate equipment to complete the planned flight, that rule here.
Andy
------------------------
Andrew S Elliott, CFI
[quote][b]
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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There are other examples of this in the FARs, where experimentals seem to be given a pass, but then the op limits put the reg back in. Modern op limits are gonna say:
( After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night
and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.
(9) Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under § 91.205 must be inspected
and maintained in accordance with the requirements of part 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this
equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records.
So 91.205 gets handed back to us, per the op limits.
The only caveat I know of is that some older op limits, which are still valid, might not refer back to 205.
--Dave
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net (a.s.elliott(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Just a reminder to note that, as specifically stated in the heading section, 14CFR 91.205 applies to, and only to, “Powered civil aircraft with *standard* category U.S. airworthiness certificates”. For the larger number of us who are building/flying experimental category aircraft, the applicable rules appear in your operating limits. The recommendations in 91.205 are good guidelines, but it’s your ops limits, and the general requirement to have appropriate equipment to complete the planned flight, that rule here.
Andy
------------------------
Andrew S Elliott, CFI
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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email(at)jaredyates.com
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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In theory you may be right, and while ops limits vary from case to case, mine say "After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only." So for my airplane and anyone else who has that limit, the ops limits just circle back to 91.205, so your point doesn't really apply.
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net (a.s.elliott(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Just a reminder to note that, as specifically stated in the heading section, 14CFR 91.205 applies to, and only to, “Powered civil aircraft with *standard* category U.S. airworthiness certificates”. For the larger number of us who are building/flying experimental category aircraft, the applicable rules appear in your operating limits. The recommendations in 91.205 are good guidelines, but it’s your ops limits, and the general requirement to have appropriate equipment to complete the planned flight, that rule here.
Andy
------------------------
Andrew S Elliott, CFI
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ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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6/13/2014
Hello Andrew Eliot, Does the attached document help clarify things for you?
Thanks,
OC
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information."
============================================
Time: 07:37:30 AM PST US
From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: 91.205 - NOT!
Just a reminder to note that, as specifically stated in the heading
section, 14CFR 91.205 applies to, and only to, "Powered civil aircraft
with *standard* category U.S. airworthiness certificates". For the
larger number of us who are building/flying experimental category
aircraft, the applicable rules appear in your operating limits. The
recommendations in 91.205 are good guidelines, but it's your ops limits,
and the general requirement to have appropriate equipment to complete
the planned flight, that rule here.
Andy
------------------------
Andrew S Elliott, CFI
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| Description: |
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ABEA_Minimum_Inst_Requirements_11.doc |
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37 KB |
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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6/13/2014
Hello Andy, Thanks for your response. You wrote: “Why do you think that it
(91.205) does?”
1) I agree, 91.205 does not normally apply to any aircraft that has a:
Special Airworthiness Certificate, Category/Designation: Experimental.
2) Such an aircraft is limited to VFR day only flight. See here:
"14 CFR 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations.
(d) (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
authorized by the Administrator;...."
3) However the entire context of the recent postings regarding the subject
Direction Indicator Needs has been for IFR flight by an aircraft that has a:
Special Airworthiness Certificate, Category/Designation: Experimental.
Purpose: To operate Amateur Built Aircraft. Operating Limitations Dated
XX/XX/XXXX Are Part Of This Certificate.
Note: The terminology and entries in 1 and 2 above are taken directly from
an issued FAA Form 8130-7 (10/82).
4) This below extract copied from the attached document states why 91.205
DOES APPLY for IFR or night flight for an aircraft certificated as in 3
above.(commonly referred to as an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built)
aircraft):
"The Special Airworthiness Certificate issued for each amateur built
experimental aircraft includes specific Operating Limitations. Per FAA
Order 8130.2G the Operating Limitations state: “After completion of Phase I
flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument
flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR,
day only.” The interpretation given this statement is that if the aircraft
is “appropriately equipped in accordance with 91.205” then the “VFR day
only” limitation no longer applies and the aircraft can be flown at night
or under IFR in IMC."
4) If the EAB in question does not contain the above quoted Operating
Limitations extract then one must, as you say, look at the Operating
Limitations for that specific aircraft to see what does apply.
Please let me know if the above information does not clarify this issue.
Thanks,
OC
=======================================================================
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AM
To: 'Owen Baker '
Subject: RE: 91.205 - NOT!
It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all
requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental
category aircraft. Why do you think that it does?
Andy
===================================================================
From: Owen Baker [mailto:bakerocb(at)cox.net]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 5:15 AM
To: a.s.elliott(at)cox.net; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: 91.205 - NOT!
6/13/2014
Hello Andrew Eliot, Does the attached document help clarify things for you?
Thanks,
OC
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather
and understand information."
=========================================================================================
Time: 07:37:30 AM PST US
From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 91.205 - NOT!
Just a reminder to note that, as specifically stated in the heading
section, 14CFR 91.205 applies to, and only to, "Powered civil aircraft
with *standard* category U.S. airworthiness certificates". For the
larger number of us who are building/flying experimental category
aircraft, the applicable rules appear in your operating limits. The
recommendations in 91.205 are good guidelines, but it's your ops limits,
and the general requirement to have appropriate equipment to complete
the planned flight, that rule here.
Andy
------------------------
Andrew S Elliott, CFI
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
| Description: |
|
Download |
| Filename: |
ABEA_Minimum_Inst_Requirements_11.doc |
| Filesize: |
37 KB |
| Downloaded: |
257 Time(s) |
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:17 am Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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6/15/2014
Hello Listers, Andrew Elliott wrote: “And most clearly, 91.205 does not
apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does?”
Please see the FAA Feb 2, 2009 letter available here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf
This Feb 2, 2009 letter from the FAA explains why I think that 14 CFR 91.205
does apply to all EAB aircraft ever since change 3 to FAA Order 8130.2F**
was issued on 4/18/2007. The below copied explicit wording has been required
in every EAB Operating Limitations since 4/18/2007:
“After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped
for night and/or instrument
flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR,
day only.”
Prior to 4/18/2007, starting at some date that I can not determine, the FAA
or DAR airworthiness inspectors were ordered to instruct the EAB aircraft
applicant regarding this requirement and to include the requirement in the
Operating Limitations, but no explicit wording was provided.
‘OC’
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather
and understand information."
**PS: The current version, FAA Order 8130.2G, dated 4/16/2011, with Change
1, dated 7/02/2012, contains that same wording.
==============================================================================
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AMSubject: RE: 91.205 - NOT!
It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all
requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental
category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Andy
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:36 pm Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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Owen, Andrew, et al, The FAA published 8130.2G, "Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products" on 8/31/2010. Section 9, Experimental Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certificates, paragraph 4104, page 4/64, "Issuance of Experimental Amateur-Built Operating Limitations." b. The following operating limitations shall be prescribed to experimental amateur-built
aircraft:
(7) This aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.
( After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night
and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under
VFR, day only.
So, Andrew, you can claim 91.205 doesn't apply, but when that statement is in your op limitations, it does.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
6/15/2014
Hello Listers, Andrew Elliott wrote: “And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does?”
Please see the FAA Feb 2, 2009 letter available here:
[url=http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf]http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf[/url]
This Feb 2, 2009 letter from the FAA explains why I think that 14 CFR 91.205 does apply to all EAB aircraft ever since change 3 to FAA Order 8130.2F** was issued on 4/18/2007. The below copied explicit wording has been required in every EAB Operating Limitations since 4/18/2007:
“After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument
flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.”
Prior to 4/18/2007, starting at some date that I can not determine, the FAA or DAR airworthiness inspectors were ordered to instruct the EAB aircraft applicant regarding this requirement and to include the requirement in the Operating Limitations, but no explicit wording was provided.
‘OC’
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information."
**PS: The current version, FAA Order 8130.2G, dated 4/16/2011, with Change 1, dated 7/02/2012, contains that same wording.
=====================================================
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AMSubject: RE: 91.205 - NOT!
It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Andy
====================================
-
ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: 91.205 - NOT! |
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Just to be sure that 8130.2G still applies I checked the FAA.gov website. 8130.2H is out in draft form and true to FAA form they have managed to take something that was fairly straight forward and turn it into a POS. Now you are referred to Appendix C where you'll be happy to find a chart to thoroughly screw up the op limits for Ex Am-Built. If you go through said chart on page C-11 you'll find: Day VFR flight operations are authorized.
Night flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in
14 CFR 91.205(c) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance
with the applicable requirements of part 91.
Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in
14 CFR 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance
with the applicable requirements of part 91. All maintenance or inspection
of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and
include the following items: date, work performed, and name and
certificate number of person returning aircraft to service.
and that this applies to all aircraft certificated under 14 CFR 21.191(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (h) & (i) .
Your Friendly FAA at work for you.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Owen, Andrew, et al, The FAA published 8130.2G, "Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products" on 8/31/2010. Section 9, Experimental Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certificates, paragraph 4104, page 4/64, "Issuance of Experimental Amateur-Built Operating Limitations." b. The following operating limitations shall be prescribed to experimental amateur-built
aircraft:
(7) This aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.
( After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night
and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under
VFR, day only.
So, Andrew, you can claim 91.205 doesn't apply, but when that statement is in your op limitations, it does.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
6/15/2014
Hello Listers, Andrew Elliott wrote: “And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does?”
Please see the FAA Feb 2, 2009 letter available here:
[url=http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf]http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf[/url]
This Feb 2, 2009 letter from the FAA explains why I think that 14 CFR 91.205 does apply to all EAB aircraft ever since change 3 to FAA Order 8130.2F** was issued on 4/18/2007. The below copied explicit wording has been required in every EAB Operating Limitations since 4/18/2007:
“After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument
flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.”
Prior to 4/18/2007, starting at some date that I can not determine, the FAA or DAR airworthiness inspectors were ordered to instruct the EAB aircraft applicant regarding this requirement and to include the requirement in the Operating Limitations, but no explicit wording was provided.
‘OC’
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information."
**PS: The current version, FAA Order 8130.2G, dated 4/16/2011, with Change 1, dated 7/02/2012, contains that same wording.
=====================================================
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AMSubject: RE: 91.205 - NOT!
It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Andy
====================================
-
ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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